[P @ F]

Having broken down in exactly the same place twice in a row now , i can only assume my van battery is on the way out , i have about 45 minutes of work on a main road that needs me to use the hazards , each time i go to drive off the van wont start !

What i am thinking of doing is using my multi function Numax as the van battery , couple of reasons for this are that i wont have to buy a new van battery and also that i will then have an alternator to charge alongside the solar , are there any reasons that what i propose wont work ?

[Don Kee]

Has your numax got a cca rating?(unless its old, it should have as most of the new nimax’s do)

I’m not Spruce, last I looked but it should work if you set it up as shown.
You’ll just have to be super careful to always put more in than you get out (i.e if you dont do alot of driving for a few days on consistantly cloudy days, then you’ll take out more than you out in and van wont start, which is the problem you’re trying to solve!!)

I’d always get seperate batteries if I’m honest...worst case, if your system battery dies in a day at least you can use the excuse to go home (and actually get back)

[Spruce]

Having broken down in exactly the same place twice in a row now , i can only assume my van battery is on the way out , i have about 45 minutes of work on a main road that needs me to use the hazards , each time i go to drive off the van wont start !

What i am thinking of doing is using my multi function Numax as the van battery , couple of reasons for this are that i wont have to buy a new van battery and also that i will then have an alternator to charge alongside the solar , are there any reasons that what i propose wont work ?

I see no reason why that wouldn't work. The Numax leisure battery you bought also has a CCA value so is capable of starting an engine as well.
However, what I don't know is how well the leisure battery would survive numerous starts a day over a period of time.

If it fits in the battery holder I would certainly give it a try myself, but I would talk to Numax and ask them how they felt their battery would perform. They could well tell you that you void its warranty, but then they aren't telling you anything new. 

We all know that a starter battery has thin lead plates and a leisure battery has thick lead plates. I'm assuming this combination battery has plates which are a compromise between the two. But I don't know how the new calcium technology applies in these new batteries.

.

[Spruce]

Has your numax got a cca rating?(unless its old, it should have as most of the new nimax’s do)

I’m not Spruce, last I looked but it should work if you set it up as shown.
You’ll just have to be super careful to always put more in than you get out (i.e if you dont do alot of driving for a few days on consistantly cloudy days, then you’ll take out more than you out in and van wont start, which is the problem you’re trying to solve!!)

I’d always get seperate batteries if I’m honest...worst case, if your system battery dies in a day at least you can use the excuse to go home (and actually get back)

I understand what P & F is trying to achieve. The only short term issue is going to be when the leisure battery now starter battery needs a boost charge. These new vans with their on board electronics don't like the power to be removed too often as you risk the ecu not rebooting properly each time you connect the battery up again.

I doubt there would be too much of a problem driving the van onto the grass outside his house when the ground is firm, but in this weather chances are it will be soft and boggy.

.

[P @ F]

Cheers Don and Spruce ,
Don my battery was bought in September and is very well maintained , it does not have a CCA but does have an MCA of 960 , the model number is XV24MF ( 86Ah )

Come  to think of it , it has let me down 3 times , all of them when the hazards have been used , the first time was in a different place than the second two , on this occasion the dash was telling me all manner of stuff , air bag failure , check fuel filter amongst them , the first thing i did was to pull the fuel filter out which was a mare in itself , that when i clicked that it was a power problem with all the warnings going off , i ended up putting the Numax in and starting with that , then putting the van battery back in with the van running , i had done a lot of solid work that day previously so i know the battery is good for it .

My main concern is ..... should the Numax be charged at the rate that my vans alternator charges a standard battery , will it be too much of a boost to handle ? 

[Spruce]

Cheers Don and Spruce ,
Don my battery was bought in September and is very well maintained , it does not have a CCA but does have an MCA of 960 , the model number is XV24MF ( 86Ah )

Come  to think of it , it has let me down 3 times , all of them when the hazards have been used , the first time was in a different place than the second two , on this occasion the dash was telling me all manner of stuff , air bag failure , check fuel filter amongst them , the first thing i did was to pull the fuel filter out which was a mare in itself , that when i clicked that it was a power problem with all the warnings going off , i ended up putting the Numax in and starting with that , then putting the van battery back in with the van running , i had done a lot of solid work that day previously so i know the battery is good for it .

My main concern is ..... should the Numax be charged at the rate that my vans alternator charges a standard battery , will it be too much of a boost to handle ?

MCA = marine cranking amps. The cranking performance of that battery is measured at 0 degrees  where CCA values are measured at  -18 degrees C. Your battery has a CCA of 720.

The Numax can be charged the same way as a starter battery would be. Our split charge relays and voltage sensing relays simply join both batteries together.

The difference is with an alternator that is designed to work with a van with regenerative braking. Those alternators push out a higher voltage.

Our batteries will only accept a specific charge. I have a 90amp alternator in my van but the battery is usually only charged at 7 to 8 amps after a full days work. The fuller the battery the higher the resistance and so the lower the charge it will accept.

[Spruce]

Cheers Don and Spruce ,
Don my battery was bought in September and is very well maintained , it does not have a CCA but does have an MCA of 960 , the model number is XV24MF ( 86Ah )

Come  to think of it , it has let me down 3 times , all of them when the hazards have been used , the first time was in a different place than the second two , on this occasion the dash was telling me all manner of stuff , air bag failure , check fuel filter amongst them , the first thing i did was to pull the fuel filter out which was a mare in itself , that when i clicked that it was a power problem with all the warnings going off , i ended up putting the Numax in and starting with that , then putting the van battery back in with the van running , i had done a lot of solid work that day previously so i know the battery is good for it .

My main concern is ..... should the Numax be charged at the rate that my vans alternator charges a standard battery , will it be too much of a boost to handle ?

Hazards were the straw that broke my battery's back both times. They seem to take a excessive amount of current for some reason.

I also meant to add but forgot. Never swap batteries over with the engine running. You could end up with extensive damage to the van's electronics.

[P @ F]

My van doesnt have regen brakes but it is stop start if that makes any difference ?
But as i said on another thread the other day , although the van is stop stop ( that i dont use ) , the van only had a standard battery in it when i bought it , but only realised when i had the first flat battery situation .

So do you think it is a goer to try it out , i will add that my most pump draw is a max of 15 amp per day tops and that once i have driven the same 10 miles to my chosen area every day , once the van is there it is not started very many times a day due to being compact work and the fact that i dont do much 

[Spruce]

My van doesnt have regen brakes but it is stop start if that makes any difference ?
But as i said on another thread the other day , although the van is stop stop ( that i dont use ) , the van only had a standard battery in it when i bought it , but only realised when i had the first flat battery situation .

So do you think it is a goer to try it out , i will add that my most pump draw is a max of 15 amp per day tops and that once i have driven the same 10 miles to my chosen area every day , once the van is there it is not started very many times a day due to being compact work and the fact that i dont do much 

I would go for it. As Don says, you need to make sure that you always have sufficient charge in your leisure battery so you won't be let down at the end of the day. You won't be able to completely monitor the current usage from your battery with your gauges, but you will be able to get a permanent voltage reading which translates into state of charge/discharge.
.

[P @ F]

That is my fear , nothing worse than a flat battery !
I do have the MPPT that will give slight indication through the fact that i could be in bulk or float , float would be a winner but bulk could mean any state of charge !

What i could try is like i propose , but carry the original van battery in my pump box as backup and just make sure that it is fully charged should i need to use it , this would give me a chance to monitor how the Numax is performing without the risk of getting caught out , as we know summer should be a breeze , but the winter is the test .

I thought about this as so many people in the past have just wired to van battery and relied solely on that as source of pump and starting power .

[Spruce]

I wonder how useful something like this could be.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Heavy-Duty-68800-mAh-Portable-Car-Emergency-Charger-Jump-Starter-USB-Power-Bank/19010154424?iid=222331892106&_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49129%26meid%3D2b7f763643d54adaa1cc8e9504f9461a%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D222717499247&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

[Spruce]

That is my fear , nothing worse than a flat battery !
I do have the MPPT that will give slight indication through the fact that i could be in bulk or float , float would be a winner but bulk could mean any state of charge !

What i could try is like i propose , but carry the original van battery in my pump box as backup and just make sure that it is fully charged should i need to use it , this would give me a chance to monitor how the Numax is performing without the risk of getting caught out , as we know summer should be a breeze , but the winter is the test .

I thought about this as so many people in the past have just wired to van battery and relied solely on that as source of pump and starting power .

Those gauges will give you a battery voltage. If its 12.8/12.9v after 4 hours the battery is fully charged. If its 12.5v then its 75% charged and if its 12.3v its 50% charged. If you don't let the battery drop below 12.5v first thing in the morning then it will be enough for the days work but will need a boost when you get home.

[P @ F]

That is what i want to avoid , taking the battery out at all , my thinking was boosting my solar with the input of the alternator .
My thoughts are that providing the van starts to get home then it will have a 15 minute charge down the motorway and then a 15 minute charge back up it in the morning .

What could i expect amp wise from an alterator in those times ?
I have checked on europarts and as usual multiple listings ranging from 75 to 120 amp alternators for my reg number !

[Spruce]

That is what i want to avoid , taking the battery out at all , my thinking was boosting my solar with the input of the alternator .
My thoughts are that providing the van starts to get home then it will have a 15 minute charge down the motorway and then a 15 minute charge back up it in the morning .

What could i expect amp wise from an alterator in those times ?
I have checked on europarts and as usual multiple listings ranging from 75 to 120 amp alternators for my reg number !

My amp meter across my leisure battery will show a charge of between 6 and 7 amps after a days work on the way home. That's not mega as 30 minutes of running time will mean an input of 3 to 3.5amps on the back and forth to work.

However, I have never seen the gauge on my Numax charger reading between 50 and 75% charged with my leisure battery - its always between 75% and 100% charged.  So my alternator is never going to do much charging as the fuller a battery gets the lower the charge it will accept.

After a really heavy commercial day with 2 pumps going full throttle I have seen the amp meter up at 15 amps, so the more discharged a battery is the more charge it will accept.

We keep hearing stories of windies who never bench charge their batteries. I have ask some of them to provide a voltage reading after 4 hours but no one has ever done this. I believe that these ones are running fairly discharged batteries and its the higher charge rate acceptance that keeps them going day to day. I doubt anyone doing this has a fully charged leisure battery.

I've often wondered if I should just stop bench charging my leisure battery for a few weeks and see what happens. The battery is 3 years old so has a finite life left anyway.

[P @ F]

Yeah , it would be simple for me to do it , but as my battery was only bought in September im a little bit against doing so in case it kills the battery , but then how will i ever know the answer if i dont , and now is the time to do the test if i am ever to do it , we have seen that solar is not enough alone , to my specs anyway ,
But , i could just be this simple step away now from being self sufficient in the power department !

Do you know , i think im going to try it anyway , i will have the backup starter should i need it , as long as i keep an eye on it , let it rest for 4/5 hours once home and  volt test it then i will get a pretty good idea of whats what .

[rosskesava]

Maybe the problem is you need a replacement starter motor.

[Spruce]

That's also a good suggestion Ross.

I'm not sure how far the Citroen/Peugeot starter motor weakness spread into the Fiat camp, but certainly the Bosch and Mitsubishi starter motors used on PSA 2.0 hdi diesel engines in the mid 2000's weren't the best for durability. Whilst the Bosch ones 'recovered' with new brushes, bushes and a good clean, they never seemed to perform as a new starter motor did. As for Mitsubishi that was a replacement starter as the chances were that the long bolts holding the motor together seized and they broke off when taking the unit apart.  Those faulty starters did take more current and as they turned the motor slower, it took longer to start the engine.

The thing is that a starter motor in good condition doesn't take that much current overall to start an engine. If P&F's starter spun the engine over when he used his leisure battery without any issues, then I would assume that its working fine. He has also switched off the annoying stop start option so the starter motor won't work as often.

I agree that the intial surge or inrush current taken from the battery the millisecond before the engine starts to rotate is around 300 amps but if a 2.0 liter diesel starts within a couple of seconds, then that current draw spread over an hour is only slightly more than our Shurflo water pumps draw in an hour.

So a battery on its last legs as far as capacity is concerned could well start an engine but fail due to the extra longer term power 4 main flasher bulbs and 2 side flasher bulbs would take, not leaving enough for the starter motor. Almost sure P&F's starter battery has to be replaced. This flasher issue is the proverbial 'writing on the wall.'

Of course one of the tests would be to ensure that the alternator is charging properly is by putting a voltmeter (multimeter) across the terminals with the engine running. That is the test 99.99% of garages do. An alternator that delivers voltage delivers amps as well. There is the remote possibility that the voltage is there but not the amps but I don't know of a case personally.

.

[Spruce]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTa6Zx8zYhY

I wonder how a capacitor bank instead of a leisure battery would work for us. These capacitors won't have a long term capacity but they recharge within seconds. That interests me.

[PHILIP HARDY]

I know its a very simplistic reply but im a pretty simple kinda guy,couldnt you just leave the van running when using the hazards (at least short term), to avoid a flat battery, (before I get the obvious) a crooklock !!!

[High-Tower]

Or buy a flashing beacon for the roof and run it off the leisure battery?