[Perfect Windows]

From another thread but I think it's worthy of its own discussion:

That must be really frustrating as well though. Because i could be completely wrong with this but legionella is based on water being stagnate and warm/hot.
If your warming water via a gas heater or a diesel heater then that doesnt apply. If like me water is being heated over night in a static van then again its not static for long enough for it to grow and certainly not whilst in transit all day.
Sometimes H&S really frustrates me. But i suppose better to be save than sorry

One of our franchisees is going to hot using an immersion shortly so this is on my mind.

A general comment is that if you have water you have legionella.  If you have warm water you have breeding legionella.  No-one anywhere seems happy to give any kind of numbers, volumes or the time it takes to become a serious problem.  So, does a hose full of warm water that's then left in the sun-warmed van for a week when you're off work in summer become riddled?  Hard to say but definitely a potential risk when you consider that hotel shower heads have been a problem in the past.

Legionella is dangerous when the water is in aerosol form.  That spray of mist when you take the brush off a window is a perfect example of aerosol water and if it contains legionella, it can be breathed in by someone 600 feet away and they can become infected.

There are a couple of solutions.  Take the water above 60C and you kill off the bacteria.  It'd be wasted heat to some extent (do you want to clean with water that hot?) and you'd have to run it through your hoses for some time while maintaining that temperature.

The better alternative would be to rechlorinate the water after the RO.  You need to get to 0.5ppm if you're doing it all the time but you can raise the amount of chlorine higher for shorter periods of time to do the same job.  0.5 - 1ppm is in the same range as tap water so isn't going to harm customers' windows.  That's what we're looking at.  Dose the IBC every fill and it should all be just dandy.  The amount and manner of dose is TBC.

The problem is that all the literature online is very vague on the detail and no-one's done a full analysis for our industry.  However, I do feel it's an accident waiting to happen.

Vin

[Dry Clean]

Vin before on demand hot water became the norm people used to heat their water store it in a tank and then use it to shower/wash, if this didn't cause massive legionella outbreaks then I don't think you have to worry about what's in your tank.
I agree with Nathan on this one.

[Perfect Windows]

Vin before on demand hot water became the norm people used to heat their water store it in a tank and then use it to shower/wash, if this didn't cause massive legionella outbreaks then I don't think you have to worry about what's in your tank.
I agree with Nathan on this one.

Except domestic hot water systems run at well over 50C, enough to kill legionella.

Vin

[EandM]

The understanding on this is that it's dangerous by inhalation when in gaseous form - it is however safe to drink.

[Perfect Windows]

OK, worked it out using: https://www.publichealthontario.ca/en/ServicesAndTools/Tools/Pages/Dilution-Calculator.aspx

For a 500 litre fill to reach 1ppm (double what's truly required), you'd need to add two tablespoons of Tesco thin bleach (1.5% hypochlorite), 35ml.  At 29p for two litres that's a massive 0.4p per day, 2p per week.  If you're happy with 0.5ppm, you could reduce that to a penny a week.

I'll live with that.  Now I've worked that out I've stopped caring if it's totally necessary.

Vin

[nathankaye]

From another thread but I think it's worthy of its own discussion:

That must be really frustrating as well though. Because i could be completely wrong with this but legionella is based on water being stagnate and warm/hot.
If your warming water via a gas heater or a diesel heater then that doesnt apply. If like me water is being heated over night in a static van then again its not static for long enough for it to grow and certainly not whilst in transit all day.
Sometimes H&S really frustrates me. But i suppose better to be save than sorry

One of our franchisees is going to hot using an immersion shortly so this is on my mind.

A general comment is that if you have water you have legionella.  If you have warm water you have breeding legionella.  No-one anywhere seems happy to give any kind of numbers, volumes or the time it takes to become a serious problem.  So, does a hose full of warm water that's then left in the sun-warmed van for a week when you're off work in summer become riddled?  Hard to say but definitely a potential risk when you consider that hotel shower heads have been a problem in the past.

Legionella is dangerous when the water is in aerosol form.  That spray of mist when you take the brush off a window is a perfect example of aerosol water and if it contains legionella, it can be breathed in by someone 600 feet away and they can become infected.

There are a couple of solutions.  Take the water above 60C and you kill off the bacteria.  It'd be wasted heat to some extent (do you want to clean with water that hot?) and you'd have to run it through your hoses for some time while maintaining that temperature.

The better alternative would be to rechlorinate the water after the RO.  You need to get to 0.5ppm if you're doing it all the time but you can raise the amount of chlorine higher for shorter periods of time to do the same job.  0.5 - 1ppm is in the same range as tap water so isn't going to harm customers' windows.  That's what we're looking at.  Dose the IBC every fill and it should all be just dandy.  The amount and manner of dose is TBC.

The problem is that all the literature online is very vague on the detail and no-one's done a full analysis for our industry.  However, I do feel it's an accident waiting to happen.

Vin

I think again people get caught up in health n safety.
The example which you put forward in my simple thinking has flaws.
As you rightly say for you to maintain heated water coming through your hose it needs a high flow. For instance i need my flow on 80, i can run it very well at 65 and still get good flow from 6 jets but it wont maintain the heat, if not is a much lower temp than whats in the tank!  Theres your answer.
How do you expect the stagnant water in your hose to maintain the higher temperature required for it to grow in the hose that has been left in the van during a weeks holiday.     Also if you are overly worried, why not drain your hose before you leave it for a week or several days.

[AuRavelling79]

I think she still looks quite attractive. How old is she now? Mid-fifties?

https://goo.gl/images/kD5P9H

[Small but perfectley formed]

12 volt UV water disinfection system

[Perfect Windows]

I think again people get caught up in health n safety.
The example which you put forward in my simple thinking has flaws.
As you rightly say for you to maintain heated water coming through your hose it needs a high flow. For instance i need my flow on 80, i can run it very well at 65 and still get good flow from 6 jets but it wont maintain the heat, if not is a much lower temp than whats in the tank!  Theres your answer.
How do you expect the stagnant water in your hose to maintain the higher temperature required for it to grow in the hose that has been left in the van during a weeks holiday.     Also if you are overly worried, why not drain your hose before you leave it for a week or several days.

It only has to be above 25C.  Easily possible in a van left for a week in the sun.

Drain hose v 1/5p on bleach, no contest.

Vin

[֍Winp®oClean֍]

Been using immersion heater for about 6/7 years now and to the best of my knowledge I've killed neither myself nor anyone else with my water.

[nathankaye]

I think again people get caught up in health n safety.
The example which you put forward in my simple thinking has flaws.
As you rightly say for you to maintain heated water coming through your hose it needs a high flow. For instance i need my flow on 80, i can run it very well at 65 and still get good flow from 6 jets but it wont maintain the heat, if not is a much lower temp than whats in the tank!  Theres your answer.
How do you expect the stagnant water in your hose to maintain the higher temperature required for it to grow in the hose that has been left in the van during a weeks holiday.     Also if you are overly worried, why not drain your hose before you leave it for a week or several days.

It only has to be above 25C.  Easily possible in a van left for a week in the sun.

Drain hose v 1/5p on bleach, no contest.

Vin

Why over complicate things.  Most people either either make purified water in their van or into a storage tank. So if anyone produces water to be stored in their van before they go away for a week etc have to be off their trolley.
Any water left in tank b4 going away simply drain the tank.

[Perfect Windows]

Why over complicate things.  Most people either either make purified water in their van or into a storage tank. So if anyone produces water to be stored in their van before they go away for a week etc have to be off their trolley.
Any water left in tank b4 going away simply drain the tank.

You are suggesting draining the van tank (and my in-full-sun black IBC, presumably) and always draining the hose before going on holiday (I don't even know how to empty the hose, let alone how to get every drop out of it). Yet popping two tablespoons of bleach into the tank before filling is "over complicating".

I understand that new ideas are sometimes hard to accept but this seems odd coming from someone so keen to do things efficiently.  If it cost a fiver a day I could understand reluctance but it's a fraction of a penny and ten seconds' work.

I'm going to do it.  I'm going to suggest it to our franchisees (they do their own RAs).  Seems to me to be part of a sensible RA.  Now I've researched it there's clearly a minuscule cost, tiny time penalty to clear a risk with major implications (albeit with an unknown and small possibility of occurring).  However, each to their own.

Vin

[Dry Clean]

Why over complicate things.  Most people either either make purified water in their van or into a storage tank. So if anyone produces water to be stored in their van before they go away for a week etc have to be off their trolley.
Any water left in tank b4 going away simply drain the tank.

You are suggesting draining the van tank (and my in-full-sun black IBC, presumably) and always draining the hose before going on holiday (I don't even know how to empty the hose, let alone how to get every drop out of it). Yet popping two tablespoons of bleach into the tank before filling is "over complicating".

I understand that new ideas are sometimes hard to accept but this seems odd coming from someone so keen to do things efficiently.  If it cost a fiver a day I could understand reluctance but it's a fraction of a penny and ten seconds' work.

I'm going to do it.  I'm going to suggest it to our franchisees (they do their own RAs).  Seems to me to be part of a sensible RA.  Now I've researched it there's clearly a minuscule cost, tiny time penalty to clear a risk with major implications (albeit with an unknown and small possibility of occurring).  However, each to their own.

Vin

I don't understand why you keep bringing cost into it as if this was a must do cost wouldn't matter, personally for me the risk doesn't  warrant messing about with bleach in my pure never mind putting it on my customers windows and property.
The problem with putting small amounts of any chemical into a tank of pure is if it isn't mixed properly and used before it has had
time to settle then over time it can build up causing problems.

[Perfect Windows]

I don't understand why you keep bringing cost into it as if this was a must do cost wouldn't matter, personally for me the risk doesn't  warrant messing about with bleach in my pure never mind putting it on my customers windows and property.
The problem with putting small amounts of any chemical into a tank of pure is if it isn't mixed properly and used before it has had
time to settle then over time it can build up causing problems.

Two tablespoons of liquid bleach in a tank before filling with 500 litres of gushing water will mix in just fine.  As for the danger of putting it on your customers' windows, it'll be exactly the same concentration of chlorine as in drinking water so no danger there.

The standard answer seems to be "it won't affect me" (not you, DryClean) or it's not worth the effort.  That's fine, but as soon as we start doing this it definitely won't affect us and for that alone it'll be worth the effort for us.

Vin

[Arnold Palmer]

I was on a stag do in Budapest this time last year. Budapest was hot. Like damn hot. Real hot, crotch pot cooking hot.

Anyway a few of the bars had gazebo style shade in their beer gardens, fitted to these gazebos was a device that sprayed a fine mist of water, obviously trying to keep the punters cool. 

One of the lads was/is head of H&S at Tata steel in Port Talbot and a former HSE inspector. He flat refused to go anywhere near these bars. I'd have though that being cold tap water (probably) the danger of spreading legionnaires would be nil but according to him the biggest factor is the misting of the water. He reckoned that pencil jets (even splashed against glass) don't really vaporise the water enough to make it an issue.

Having said that, if I was running about with a tank full of heated water I'd be taking steps to minimise the risk. Better safe and all that.

[P @ F]

I am very interested in this , i have just spent time i should not have removing my van tank and bleaching it out , a build up of green on the sides , i hate this stuff !
My only concern is ......I put 350L of pure into it , then add the bleach , will this not make it unpure ?
After leaving the tank the water passes through a 10" DI to guarantee 000PPM , what effect will the bleach have on the resin on van ?
I see it as a good step for H+S , but more really to stop the tank going green .

What dose would i need for a 350 , what bleach would i use ?   (Cheers Vin) 

Rich 

[Dry Clean]

I don't understand why you keep bringing cost into it as if this was a must do cost wouldn't matter, personally for me the risk doesn't  warrant messing about with bleach in my pure never mind putting it on my customers windows and property.
The problem with putting small amounts of any chemical into a tank of pure is if it isn't mixed properly and used before it has had
time to settle then over time it can build up causing problems.

Two tablespoons of liquid bleach in a tank before filling with 500 litres of gushing water will mix in just fine.  As for the danger of putting it on your customers' windows, it'll be exactly the same concentration of chlorine as in drinking water so no danger there.

The standard answer seems to be "it won't affect me" (not you, DryClean) or it's not worth the effort.  That's fine, but as soon as we start doing this it definitely won't affect us and for that alone it'll be worth the effort for us.

Vin

That's a twisting of words (a Toshism ) to make it sound as if the standard answer is well as long as I'm alright to hell with everybody else which is not the case.
Most people will consider the risk and then decide if that risk is high enough to start adding bleach to the water, there's certainly no evidence to suggest that what we are doing has any risk of starting an outbreak of legionnaire's if anything the fact that a large amount of people have been using wfp around the globe for many years and not a single outbreak would suggest there's nothing to worry about.
If wfp window cleaning was still in the early stages then maybe a better safe than sorry would be a better approach but at this
stage of the game its just a case of needlessly looking for something to be worried about.

[P @ F]

Another thought i have just had is .......How many of us have backpacks that get very little use , i do , i use it once in a blue moon and all i do when it does get used is stick the meter in to check its pure , the water could have been in there over a month .
Im not one to fall for scare mongering usually , but being as i only use fan jets it seems i could be a risk here .

True , i have not had Legionella in 12 years , or know any cleaners that have , but i will be the lucky one for sure 

[Perfect Windows]

I am very interested in this , i have just spent time i should not have removing my van tank and bleaching it out , a build up of green on the sides , i hate this stuff !
My only concern is ......I put 350L of pure into it , then add the bleach , will this not make it unpure ?
After leaving the tank the water passes through a 10" DI to guarantee 000PPM , what effect will the bleach have on the resin on van ?
I see it as a good step for H+S , but more really to stop the tank going green .

What dose would i need for a 350 , what bleach would i use ?   (Cheers Vin) 

Rich

350litres, according to the calculator, would take 25ml - a shot measure would be perfect or a couple of dessert spoonsful.

You're getting to 1ppm chlorine in the form of a salt so you might add 1ppm to your TDS readings.  I'm not sure of the effect on your resin but this is similar to the amount of chlorine in tap water so I'd be amazed if there were a problem.

I'd be interested to see if a daily routine of adding bleach stopped the algae growing.  My IBC and van tank are black so I don't have the problem.

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

That's a twisting of words (a Toshism ) to make it sound as if the standard answer is well as long as I'm alright to hell with everybody else which is not the case.
Most people will consider the risk and then decide if that risk is high enough to start adding bleach to the water, there's certainly no evidence to suggest that what we are doing has any risk of starting an outbreak of legionnaire's if anything the fact that a large amount of people have been using wfp around the globe for many years and not a single outbreak would suggest there's nothing to worry about.
If wfp window cleaning was still in the early stages then maybe a better safe than sorry would be a better approach but at this
stage of the game its just a case of needlessly looking for something to be worried about.

Don't do it then.   I don't know how many different ways there are of saying "I'm doing it but it's up to you" but I've run out.  Don't do it.  Give it a miss.  Swerve the thing.  Leave it out. Don't bother.  I genuinely don't care what you do but I know what we're going to do.

Vin