[Marbles]

Hi All
Have a cleaner who has a worse record of attendance than Sol Campbell! Would like to get rid of her but after a recent spate of absenteeism (4 weeks) shee now produces a sick note for the 4th and 5th week (now pregnant); the 1st being self cert & subsequent weeks not sick note except attending for 1 day.

Been employed with me since 10/2005, can i sack her without being taken to a tribunal? Can she take me to a tribunal? Can I sack her while she is signed off?

Thanks in anticipation of your replies

[Sarah S & P Cleaning]

Hi,
I think you could do with speaking to a company called Peninsula i think you will find their website on the net if you do a bit of searching.
Their great and know everything to do with employment law and are there to give advice to people like you and me who come across problems with staff every day.
I recently attended a seminar which was run by them and the advice they give is all by the book to avoid staff like yours taking you to court.
Good luck 

[dustdees]

It depends whether the illness is pregnancy related!!

However I don't think that you can dismiss someone when they are sick.

[Lesley J]

I think you may find that you cannot sack her now she is pregnant, she could go to a tribunal.

[dustycorner]

Hi Marbles,

You have stated that she only produced a sick note for last 2 weeks of absence, have you questioned her about early part of her absence.

Although she is pregnant she has issues youn should address

Lack of communication unauthorised absence.

 I think you need to sit her down and discuss this, follow meeting up with a notice of unsatisfactory performance.Email me if you would like a copy of one.

Cheers Mark. 

[dustycorner]

In certain circumstances you can dismiss whilst they are sick.

[stevemc57]

Hi,

Be very careful here, whilst usually they cannot take you for unfair dimissal within their 1st year, the employment law is very protective of pregnant employees.
Try the ACAS website for more advice.

[Benchmark Hygiene]

Phone Acas they will give you excellent advice!

They are there for the employer too! And if you did sack her and she did take you to a tribunal it is acas who arbitrate for both sides!

Personally i would invite her to an investigatory meeting - be friendly ask her if she has any problems that you may be able to work around (this is usually the biggest cause of employee sick days). Tell her you are worried about the amount of time she is taking off sick. You understand she is pregnant now - and sickness does occur, however high standards still need to be maintained. Blahdy blahdy blah!

(p.s you also need to do a risk assesment now she is pregnant on her health and safety at work - just as back up for yoursefl...you may know this but it's just advice)

[dustycorner]

spot on, only thing i would do is give her notice of unsatisfactory performance, put a shot a cross her bows let her know who boss, pregnant or not.

Cheers Mark.

[Benchmark Hygiene]

Exactly Mark - she needs to know who is boss - but not feel so intamidated that her back has been put up and seek advice for a pending tribunal...

[dustycorner]

Sorry benchmark can't see what your driving at there. If an employee feels they can come and go has they please then who is running the business. When you walk pass a problem it becomes a standard.

[Benchmark Hygiene]

If you intimidate your staff into thinking they are likely to be sacked especially when pregnant they will be looking at a tribunal asap.

However if you use a bit of 'are you okay, why are you taking all this time off' you are telling them it is not acceptable but at the same time my unearth a problem that you can overcome to stop her taking off uneeded sick days!

Trust me it really does work!!!!! I ahve been there on both sides - as both an emplyee faced with troubles and an employer.

[Ali_D]

I work for the NHS at the moment and we do as Benchmark does and our sickness levels are dropping.  Our sickness level dropped by 1.2% this month.  It doesn't sound much, but when you've got 8,500 staff it adds up. 

We have a policy that says if they have three or more absences (no matter how long) in a six month period then they're asked to come in for an informal sickness review.  They're asked if we can help in any way, e.g. hours of work, counselling, etc.  We also monitor people's sickness to see if there is a pattern to their sickness, i.e. always on a monday, always on a bank holiday, etc. 

It goes into much more depth than this, but that's the general idea.  It goes onto formal review, first formal warning, bla bla bla, but i'd be here all day typing.

Ali

[Benchmark Hygiene]

That is very true Ali..but if it all went to a tribunal and you didn't follow the 'correct procedures'....then it could be difficult for you! I wouldn't allow and have never known it to be dragged out for that long.

I really think the lady in question here needs pulling up on her attendance but as you say she is pregnant - so you have to tread carefully!

I think finding out where you stand with this issue is the best - so phoning someone like acas is your best option.

Good Luck

[Ali_D]

However if you use a bit of 'are you okay, why are you taking all this time off' you are telling them it is not acceptable but at the same time my unearth a problem that you can overcome to stop her taking off uneeded sick days!

I wasn't referring to maternity, just sickness in general, as the situation may have been avoided if the sickness was dealt with initially.

[shelton]

I used to work for Tesco a few years ago, they had a very similar policy to the one descibed by Ali.

However, the manner in which the "informal review" was handled was appalling.  I had my supervisor and her supervisor (chiefs and Indians springs to mind!) grilling me on why I was off. 

At that point I was only working 3 x half days a week and had missed 3 sessions in 6 months.  Two were due to sickness, one because my daughter was ill (which you are supposed to be able to take unpaid, or work different hours to make up for).

After a lengthy interrogation, I was asked to step outside the office like a naughty schoolgirl and wait in the corridor while they discussed the outcome!

Needless to say I went back in there, gave them what for and quit on the spot.  If I hadn't done that, my company may  never have been formed . .. 

Anyway, I guess the moral of the story is that, no matter what policy you have in place, you have to make sure it is applied in the appropriate manner, by the right people.

Just my tuppence worth.

[Barry H]

I used to work for Tesco a few years ago, they had a very similar policy to the one descibed by Ali.

However, the manner in which the "informal review" was handled was appalling.  I had my supervisor and her supervisor (chiefs and Indians springs to mind!) grilling me on why I was off. 

At that point I was only working 3 x half days a week and had missed 3 sessions in 6 months.  Two were due to sickness, one because my daughter was ill (which you are supposed to be able to take unpaid, or work different hours to make up for).

After a lengthy interrogation, I was asked to step outside the office like a naughty schoolgirl and wait in the corridor while they discussed the outcome!

Needless to say I went back in there, gave them what for and quit on the spot.  If I hadn't done that, my company may  never have been formed . .. 

Anyway, I guess the moral of the story is that, no matter what policy you have in place, you have to make sure it is applied in the appropriate manner, by the right people.

Just my tuppence worth.

Hi,

I think most companies that pay staff for a certain period when sick will have a sickness procedure in place, if you were to pay staff for being sick I’m sure you would interview them, its bad enough them being off but even worse if you have to pay them.

My employer doesnt pay our cleaning staff for sickness if they earn enough to claim ssp they do, they pay it then in most cases claim a high % of it back.

Its much better to keep staff part time as most of you will know.l

[Marbles]

Thanks for all your replies. Sorry its taken so long to get bsack in touch. Think it will be a call to ACAS for now and take it from there!

Cheers!!