[martinw]

you should be aiming after all costs for an average profit of 33%-43% on domestic depending on daily turnover and level of advertising to gain new work..
With add ons, profit figure can be higher, yet it all depends on your pricing.  employee cost around 30% of turnover as per Smudger post.
As Sean mentioned try to work out average cost and profit over a year or two bearing in mind that first one can be lower due to training.

[SeanK]

Cash flow is another important factor when first starting to employ, don't forget you wont have enough work
to cover you and your employee at the start so unless you want to employ somebody on a few hours a week to start (which I don't
think would be the best way to get the best guy for the job) then the employee will be eating into your earnings for a while.

[mike1986]

Thanks for the replies... That's definately cleared a few things up. 

[slap bash]

If you did the sums and it wasn't worth the hassle, your prices are too low.

+1 so many work for peanut them try justify there low low prices I have herd them all." I can do it for that much you fella`s over charge.  But one you think of employment you need to see sense and reality hits you between the eyes.  Its amazing all the smart asses in our industry with little or no business skill.

[Perfect Windows]

Expenses for man and van per day is 30% his of turnover on general window cleaning
£200 a day ? - thats between 4 to 5 hours work.

For other services it runs between 3 % and 20% of turnover

Franchising is great for the franchiser, less so for the franchisee - IMHO
Darran

So, being employed and getting under 30% of turnover (you say 30% is man and van) is something you you consider to be OK for employees, yet offering a franchisee 80% of his turnover is somehow not good?

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

Interesting that franchisees are looking for canvassers.

Before I start, I clearly can only talk for myself and the way we run our business.

The vast majority of our customers are 12-weekly.   So, let's take a look at a 12-weekly customer whom you gain by paying someone to canvass for you.

Our price for a 3-bed semi is £27.  So, a 2x canvasser costs £54.  Up front.  For that you get, what, a 2 clean guarantee?  That's the end of the canvasser's commitment to you.  "We're moving in six months" - sign 'em up.  "I just want them done until the winter" - sign 'em up.  Not saying that's what anyone on here would do but to the guy at the doorstep there must be a temptation.

In our case, franchisee does the job, pays £5.40 in royalties.  Two and a half years later he's paid out as much as the other guy had to find two and a half years ago.  In the meantime if the customer has cancelled (and 20% don't even reach their fourth clean), they have been replaced, whether it was on the third clean or the ninth.  For the rest of the time that customer's with the franchisee, if the customer gives up, moves, dies, needs dropping for non-payment they are replaced.  At no extra cost.

So, good luck to the franchisees who think they are going to do significantly better with canvassed work.  The grass isn't always greener.

Vin

[Rich Wilts]

3 bed semi - £27.00? What's that, a dozen windows? You're guys should be doing £500 a day on that money.

[SeanK]

If you did the sums and it wasn't worth the hassle, your prices are too low.

+1 so many work for peanut them try justify there low low prices I have herd them all." I can do it for that much you fella`s over charge.  But one you think of employment you need to see sense and reality hits you between the eyes.  Its amazing all the smart asses in our industry with little or no business skill.

Mate until you have worked in a persons area don't try and tell them what they should and shouldn't be charging,
There's one guy who has just said he charges £27 for a 3 bed semi, I have deliberately upped my prices to stop me getting
any new work as I don't have time to do it, £12 quid for a 3 bed semi and haven't got a single taker.
Be a lot harder for me to employ than this guy top class business skills or not.

[Smudger]

Expenses for man and van per day is 30% his of turnover on general window cleaning
£200 a day ? - thats between 4 to 5 hours work.

For other services it runs between 3 % and 20% of turnover

Franchising is great for the franchiser, less so for the franchisee - IMHO
Darran

So, being employed and getting under 30% of turnover (you say 30% is man and van) is something you you consider to be OK for employees, yet offering a franchisee 80% of his turnover is somehow not good?

Vin

Yes Vin,
I see franchising is really good for you, but I don't think it's great for the franchisee - this is viewed purely from my perspective of  running my own company, firstly, not only are you paying out a large financial sum for work, but you then have to continually pay a commission for that work, then if I read the other thread correctly you have to renew that franchise every few years and if you give it up/retire you cant sell it, it returns to the franchise owner, on top of this you have to buy a van, divertissement someone else's business, cover the expenses, tax, no sick or holiday pay...

As an employee  they are guaranteed hours, income, bonuses, holiday and sick pay, they also don't need to worry about van repairs, advertising juggling bills and equipment.

It's horses for courses, good and bad points to both, but I feel anyone who fancies themselves as a business owner, particularly in window cleaning would be better off having their own company without strings attached

Darran

[supernova77]

3 bed semi - £27.00? What's that, a dozen windows? You're guys should be doing £500 a day on that money.

Our minimum charge for any house is £20 and we clean every 8 weeks... So £27 for a 3-bed at a 12 weekly frequency sounds about right.

Work smarter... Don't be a busy fool.

Andy 

[8weekly]

If you did the sums and it wasn't worth the hassle, your prices are too low.

+1 so many work for peanut them try justify there low low prices I have herd them all." I can do it for that much you fella`s over charge.  But one you think of employment you need to see sense and reality hits you between the eyes.  Its amazing all the smart asses in our industry with little or no business skill.

Mate until you have worked in a persons area don't try and tell them what they should and shouldn't be charging,
There's one guy who has just said he charges £27 for a 3 bed semi, I have deliberately upped my prices to stop me getting
any new work as I don't have time to do it, £12 quid for a 3 bed semi and haven't got a single taker.
Be a lot harder for me to employ than this guy top class business skills or not.

I didn't. I merely stated that if  it isn't worth the hassle of employing your prices are too low. Perfect Windows charges £27 on a three monthly frequency I think. I doubt he'd get that easily on a monthly. I charge £16-£18 on an 8 weekly frequency for a modern three bed semi.  If I was monthly, I would probably find it harder to keep customers? Sure, monthly work keeps you busy, but it isn't good for your hourly rate.

[Perfect Windows]

I see franchising is really good for you, but I don't think it's great for the franchisee Our franchisees are earning a bundle of cash.  Just a little more than your employee's 20-25% - this is viewed purely from my perspective of  running my own company, firstly, not only are you paying out a large financial sum for workOur guys don't pay for work, but you then have to continually pay a commission for that workYes, but as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, that work is guaranteed forever regardless, then if I read the other thread correctly you have to renew that franchise every few years at no cost and if you give it up/retire you cant sell it yes you can , it returns to the franchise owner no it doesn't, on top of this you have to buy a van, divertissement someone else's business, cover the expenses, tax do your employees not pay tax?, no sick or holiday pay...and a shedload more money to cover that

As an employee  they are guaranteed hours, income, bonuses, holiday and sick pay, they also don't need to worry about van repairs, advertising juggling bills and equipment.  Our franchisees are guaranteed enough work to keep them busy (the franchisees definition of "busy" is the only one that applies).  They don't get holiday pay or sick pay, to be fair, but they have 55% more than your employees' 25% share to compensate. Van repairs and equipment, fair enough but they certainly never, ever need to advertise.  That's what I mean when I say we supply enough work to fill them.  I mean that we supply it.  Why would they need to advertise?

It's horses for courses, good and bad points to both, but I feel anyone who fancies themselves as a business owner, particularly in window cleaning would be better off having their own company without strings attached It's a halfway house.  Chap number one had a steady job and it would have been a hell of a jump to give it up.  Numbers two and three said that if they went on their own, their prices would have been lower than ours less 20% and the fourth one signed up because he knew number 1 and had never seen him so happy,

Darran

Yes, of course it's good for me but my entire focus is on the franchisees' happiness.  Easy to say but true in my case.   I keep them happy in the knowledge that, in the long run, that will keep me happy.

Vin

[Smudger]

So you set up a franchise and all the work for free?

Just a little more than my employee's - I hope you meant a lot more !

So what is the purpose of renewing if no cost ?

Work is guaranteed forever ! - that's a big boast ( don't get defensive I know what you mean, you'll replace work that drops out ) what happens if say you are incapacitated by illness or accident ?

Our business models run differently, as I provide other services than window cleaning, like gutter vacing and pressure washing, this would be difficault to franchise as the amount of equipment needed would require multiple vans, we now have some large 3 yr contracts which I would also not be able to contemplate/ take on as part of a franchise - it's too restrictive for how I would like to run and expand

Darran

[SeanK]

If you did the sums and it wasn't worth the hassle, your prices are too low.

+1 so many work for peanut them try justify there low low prices I have herd them all." I can do it for that much you fella`s over charge.  But one you think of employment you need to see sense and reality hits you between the eyes.  Its amazing all the smart asses in our industry with little or no business skill.

Mate until you have worked in a persons area don't try and tell them what they should and shouldn't be charging,
There's one guy who has just said he charges £27 for a 3 bed semi, I have deliberately upped my prices to stop me getting
any new work as I don't have time to do it, £12 quid for a 3 bed semi and haven't got a single taker.
Be a lot harder for me to employ than this guy top class business skills or not.

I didn't. I merely stated that if  it isn't worth the hassle of employing your prices are too low. Perfect Windows charges £27 on a three monthly frequency I think. I doubt he'd get that easily on a monthly. I charge £16-£18 on an 8 weekly frequency for a modern three bed semi.  If I was monthly, I would probably find it harder to keep customers? Sure, monthly work keeps you busy, but it isn't good for your hourly rate.

8 weekly  why do you think my prices are for 8 or 12  weekly, even at 4 weekly  I couldn't get those prices.
Mate I'm not saying you cant get these prices in the right areas but its far from the norm.

[Tadgh O Shea]

Hi Guys, just looking at the figures being banned about here on employees earnings hourly potential etc, over on the general cleaning section we are talking about add on services, just to share for anyone thats open and receptive to other income streams from add on services, you are all cleaning clients windows on a regular basis and hopefully building up a good rapport with them, each of these homes have hard floors in their kitchen come dinning rooms that need to be deep cleaned every so often ( now guys don't off the boil i know its the window cleaning section) but this market is totally untapped and open to any guy in any area, set up costs are very low just some deep cleaning mops,grout cleaning brushes,hard floor cleaning solution, finishing mops and you are up and running for under 150 quid, no training required as its so simple to carry out deep cleaning on any type of hard floor, guaranteed to generate 50 quid or over per hour and also guaranteed plenty of referral work as when your clients see the end results they will be happy to tell all their friends and family about the transformation of their tiles and grout lines (trust me these deep cleaning tasks are so simple and effective to carry out) again just to share this wide open add on service that can be very profitable for anyone who wants to know more information under no obligation bang me an email to info@jskcleaning.ie      Tadgh

[Perfect Windows]

So you set up a franchise and all the work for free?

No, they pay for the franchise but (in my case, I can't talk for others) the franchise fee covers the cost of equipment, etc, that we supply.  We lost money on the first franchise as we spent more than I'd prepared for.  From then on we've broken even.  So there's no charge in there for "work supplied"

Just a little more than my employee's - I hope you meant a lot more !

I certainly do.

So what is the purpose of renewing if no cost ?

The renewal point gives both sides an opportunity to get out of the deal by choosing not to renew.

Work is guaranteed forever ! - that's a big boast ( don't get defensive I know what you mean, you'll replace work that drops out ) what happens if say you are incapacitated by illness or accident ?

If I die or am incapacitated, it's already planned for someone in the game to take over and run it in conjunction with my wife.  If she dies at the same time as me, all bets are off, to be fair, but that might be the point when I might have to give up caring.

Our business models run differently, as I provide other services than window cleaning, like gutter vacing and pressure washing, this would be difficault to franchise as the amount of equipment needed would require multiple vans, we now have some large 3 yr contracts which I would also not be able to contemplate/ take on as part of a franchise - it's too restrictive for how I would like to run and expand

I don't think franchising is for everybody by any means.  The thing I disagree with is the implication that it's only good for the franchisor.

Darran

[JSMC]

 Some good reading here. my work isvery poorly priced. Around here you get 5/6 quid for 3 bed semi. Lol.

[slap bash]

The rule of thumb in a lot of businesses employing in the service sector were use will use 33% work labour costs 33% GENERAL COST AND 33% PROFIT. This one can use a guideline when employing staff. If this does not work for you the potability is you pricing is to low or you don`t have the volume of work to employ.  This fact stops many businesses from growing to the next level as an employer. Its a mistake of thinking small when you start off thinking you can start with low pricing as you only have your own salary to consider.  I urge starter window cleaner to think of this fact before rushing of and thinking you can cut prices when you start off. It will nip you in the butt later in business.

[Smudger]

Tadgh - only from what I've read on the contracts board the guys seem hard pressed to charge anything over £12 p/h I also know a few domestic cleaners and the highest they seem to get is £15 p/h great as a solo operator to make a living not enough if your employing.

Vin - granted you seem to run your franchise in a very fair and honest way, and the clarification on what you charge alters the perspective, certainly on what you offer, but I suspect that yours is different from the norm, we use a mobile dog groomer who is franchised it cost him £20k to buy an area, plus supply a van no older than 3 yrs old - all parts, supplies must be brought from the franchise owner and they take 25% of the gross income.
Just like employers there are good and bad.

As I posted the view on franchising is mine, based on people who do it ( other sectors ) and generally reading about them, most like above seem to demand a nice wedge before you start, so fair play on working this a better way

Darran

[Perfect Windows]

Ah, now if we're talking about franchising in general, there are some utter shockers out there.

Guy on a business forum I frequent said a couple of years ago that there was a small unit next to his.  Some "Take coffees round companies" franchise had had three people through it in a year.  Each paid for a "reduced price" franchise, using the equipment their predecessor had failed with and failing themselves.  The franchisor owned the property.

When I was considering franchising I went to the franchise show to see what other people were offering and I was appalled at some of the ones on offer.   Some of them were obviously just mad keen to sell you the franchise with no interest in whether you'd succeed.  One grounds maintenance company was flogging their franchise for £45K.  On top of that was equipment.  Then they passed on some leads (no guarantee on numbers) and away you went.  If they were getting £45 K for the franchise itself, why would they care if you were successful or not?

One of my franchisees found a company at a show that charged a big franchise fee and sold you some kit (for a fortune)to remove tree stumps.  "Where do I get my business?" he asked.  "Just phone all the tree surgeons in your area," was the response.  "Why do I need you?" he said.

Terrible.

Vin