[Tadgh O Shea]

Of all the courses I've been on its always been recommended that you use an acid rinse in the tank to neutralise, it's also good for the softness and the colour of the coarpet. I'm always willing to be told otherwise and be proven wrong but I always acid rinse to stay on the safe side.

Thanks

Simon

  many alkaline based powders or liquids tend to leave carpet and upholstery "crusty" to the touch and will aid in much quicker resoiling as alkaline residues attract soils to the fibers,

do you have any proof of this? I've heard this so often but when its challenged no one can ever provide any proof

Hi Mike, as you probably know i have a total aversion to using any high alkaline based chemicals when it comes to cleaning any type of surface, this aversion has come from many years of using these harsh chemicals and seeing first hand the damage they can cause from continuous use, i could talk about so many different types of surfaces which are affected by these harsh chemicals, but we will keep it to carpet and upholstery, i am sure Mike that you don't need me to tell you about the nasty ingredients that are used to produce these harsh chemical products, the only proof i can offer is from using them for many years i always found that they would leave a "crusty" feeling to the fibers when i was finished the clean, again i can't be the only person to have found this to be true.

[Peter Sweeney]

What Mike said, and still it applies

[Tadgh O Shea]

What Mike said, and still it applies

Goodman yourself Peter.

[James Jacob]

I Always use a pre spray cocktail of different top of the range solutions & have always used a powdered tank additive... first it was Ashbys "Supreme powder" & now im including "Formula 90"... Because you get the double whammy of your pre spray & then the tank detergent nice & warm 40-60oc Then after cleaning & total extraction with dry passes spray a "Neat" light misting of Ashbys "Supreme Finish" or "Prochem F&F Rinse" all over the carpet... The finishing sprays are ph neutral so when misted just enough make the carpet "Safe"... only misting just enough to be absorbed into the slightly touch damp fibers... Leaves the carpets smelling delicious & ive never ever had a call back or a dissatisfied customer & most carpets i clean when i leave the house are 95% dry... unless they are wool... then they take a little longer as we all know anyway...
Its all about getting results & Powdered Tank Detergents help get those results... Simple as that really

[Tadgh O Shea]

I Always use a pre spray cocktail of different top of the range solutions & have always used a powdered tank additive... first it was Ashbys "Supreme powder" & now im including "Formula 90"... Because you get the double whammy of your pre spray & then the tank detergent nice & warm 40-60oc Then after cleaning & total extraction with dry passes spray a "Neat" light misting of Ashbys "Supreme Finish" or "Prochem F&F Rinse" all over the carpet... The finishing sprays are ph neutral so when misted just enough make the carpet "Safe"... only misting just enough to be absorbed into the slightly touch damp fibers... Leaves the carpets smelling delicious & ive never ever had a call back or a dissatisfied customer & most carpets i clean when i leave the house are 95% dry... unless they are wool... then they take a little longer as we all know anyway...
Its all about getting results & Powdered Tank Detergents help get those results... Simple as that really Hi James, just so you know Prochems f & f rinse is far from being neutral pH, if you look at the exposure controls/personal protection on Prochems Formula 90 and Ashbys Supreme powder they both recommend for hand protection gloves are required, eye protection wear safety goggles, skin protection wear protective clothing with elasticated cuffs and closed neck, also wear boots made of pvc, this is my point if the manufacturers are recommending that you have to take these precautions when using their harsh chemicals is it not safer to use green technologies when cleaning your clients surfaces.

[john martin]

I Always use a pre spray cocktail of different top of the range solutions & have always used a powdered tank additive... first it was Ashbys "Supreme powder" & now im including "Formula 90"... Because you get the double whammy of your pre spray & then the tank detergent nice & warm 40-60oc Then after cleaning & total extraction with dry passes spray a "Neat" light misting of Ashbys "Supreme Finish" or "Prochem F&F Rinse" all over the carpet... The finishing sprays are ph neutral so when misted just enough make the carpet "Safe"... only misting just enough to be absorbed into the slightly touch damp fibers... Leaves the carpets smelling delicious & ive never ever had a call back or a dissatisfied customer & most carpets i clean when i leave the house are 95% dry... unless they are wool... then they take a little longer as we all know anyway...
Its all about getting results & Powdered Tank Detergents help get those results... Simple as that really Hi James, just so you know Prochems f & f rinse is far from being neutral pH, if you look at the exposure controls/personal protection on Prochems Formula 90 and Ashbys Supreme powder they both recommend for hand protection gloves are required, eye protection wear safety goggles, skin protection wear protective clothing with elasticated cuffs and closed neck, also wear boots made of pvc, this is my point if the manufacturers are recommending that you have to take these precautions when using their harsh chemicals is it not safer to use green technologies when cleaning your clients surfaces.

lol ... you are like a stuck record Tadgh  ,  most products carry similar warning labels , does not mean they are likely to be harmfull if used as directed ...  
Even Baby powder had those warning !  
now , would they sell a baby product thats likely to harm a baby ?

http://www1.mscdirect.com/MSDS/MSDS00010/62525761-20110708.PDF

[Tadgh O Shea]

I Always use a pre spray cocktail of different top of the range solutions & have always used a powdered tank additive... first it was Ashbys "Supreme powder" & now im including "Formula 90"... Because you get the double whammy of your pre spray & then the tank detergent nice & warm 40-60oc Then after cleaning & total extraction with dry passes spray a "Neat" light misting of Ashbys "Supreme Finish" or "Prochem F&F Rinse" all over the carpet... The finishing sprays are ph neutral so when misted just enough make the carpet "Safe"... only misting just enough to be absorbed into the slightly touch damp fibers... Leaves the carpets smelling delicious & ive never ever had a call back or a dissatisfied customer & most carpets i clean when i leave the house are 95% dry... unless they are wool... then they take a little longer as we all know anyway...
Its all about getting results & Powdered Tank Detergents help get those results... Simple as that really Hi James, just so you know Prochems f & f rinse is far from being neutral pH, if you look at the exposure controls/personal protection on Prochems Formula 90 and Ashbys Supreme powder they both recommend for hand protection gloves are required, eye protection wear safety goggles, skin protection wear protective clothing with elasticated cuffs and closed neck, also wear boots made of pvc, this is my point if the manufacturers are recommending that you have to take these precautions when using their harsh chemicals is it not safer to use green technologies when cleaning your clients surfaces.

lol ... you are like a stuck record Tadgh  ,  most products carry similar warning labels , does not mean they are likely to be harmfull if used as directed ...  
Even Baby powder had those warning !  
now , would they sell a baby product thats likely to harm a baby ?

http://www1.mscdirect.com/MSDS/MSDS00010/62525761-20110708.PDF

Hi John, i was waiting for your input, its easy to get fellows going on here. happy cleaning and make sure its green.

[Robin Ray]

Is it as clear cut as using only high ph or not?

Some times it is necessary to throw everything at a carpet to get it clean. After that it can be maintained with milder chemicals.

[Mike Halliday]

used correctly, at the right dilution, detergents will not cause re-soiling

'High Ph' is a measurement not a physical entity it has no bearing on whether a chemical will leave a sticky residue..... its like saying "5mph made my leg go green" 

I don't know what Ph honey is but if you put a diluted mixture on a carpet I guess this would cause re-soiling. but a specifically designed detergent mixed at a dilution of 400-1 (of which 80% is removed) will not. Considering on an average 14x14 living room you will leave 1 teaspoon of actual powder after cleaning and some of this will return to powder and be vacuumed up by the homeowner.

we need to come out of the 1960s were this information was born, then it was true with shampoos that were used to clean. Now we have had 50yrs of development by manufacturers who know that one of  our biggest concern is 'residue'

 the problem is some of the trainers in our industry learnt there trade then and work on the theory its better to be safe than sorry, and acid rinsing is the safest option so its better to teach that.

[John Kelly]

Wool carpets especially creams or white can be chemically burnt by using too high a ph chemical, fact. I have seen it many times and I have umpteen phonecalls every year where this has happened. Personally I would never have used a product with a ph of 12 on wool carpets as a regular thing. I have used Champion on badly soot damaged carpets and with an acid rinse have got away with it.
Light coloured berbers are very prone to this as they tend to remain wetter longer due to the folds in the pile.
In tank detergents are very effective cleaners. Formula 90 in the tank with no pre-spray will give a very good clean without the need for a pre-spray. Even though as has been said the solution is only in the carpet for seconds the results can be quite remarkable. For mingers a pre-spray and agitation is often required but if you price yourself correctly and generally clean resonably clean carpets which are cleaned at least yearly then a tank detergent is usually sufficient.

[James Jacob]

Yes Tadgh you are right to pick me up on that point where i said Supreme finish & f&f rinse are ph neautral... i worded it wrong (it was late & i was tired...) What i meant to say was those two slightly acidic products when applied to carpets after cleaning with high alkaline powders will neautralise the high alkaline ph & leave the carpets in the "Safe ph" zone...
& Hi John i understand what yourself & pink polo mike were saying to me about the effects of high alkaline powders/products attacking & degrading the proteins of the wool fibers themselves, but i am curious... Is it not just a time & state related issue where those problems occur? what i mean by that is if you were to leave the products in the carpet "Too long"... or Leave the carpet having No kind of acid rinse applied at all in any way... be it as an in tank rinse or after as a finishing spray... Then yes i can well imagine that a wool carpet could suffer those problems you describe...
When i clean a room carpet & i apply my pre-spay its only on the fibers for quite a relatively short time before it gets extracted with my machine with yes Some powder like Supreme powder for extra cleaning power... & then i apply my Finishing spray misting... all within an hour 99% of the time
Do you think that because i dont leave the high alkaline products in the carpet for too long & apply the finishing spray straight after cleaning that room... That it may be why i never get any negative call backs to correct browning or other such post cleaning problems?

[stuart_clark]

I use Chemspec detergents in my tank and always have, I've experimented with the likes of m power and spm then just a hot water rinse but I always go back to my trusted detegents, saying that I do use presprays on heavily soiled carpet and upholstery, but as Mike has rightly said modern day chemicals and definitely Chemspec chemicals leave no or very little residue



Stuart

[des]

Stuart are you going through a lot of pumps as ive being told that any thing in the clean tank especially powders will clog your pump very quick

[Lewis Newby]

Des, i belive its the oxy boosted products which can cavitate the pumps internal. An in tank powdered detergent shouldnt contain anything like that.
keep things like spm away- its a pre spray afterall

[Geoff Jewkes]

50 mm shells........

[jim mca]

James

Have you tested the PH after you have misted acid rinse I don't think it would make much difference and definitely not if you use powdered F90 you should try rinsing with liquid high heat when you use a alkaline pre spray

Jim

[Tadgh O Shea]

used correctly, at the right dilution, detergents will not cause re-soiling

'High Ph' is a measurement not a physical entity it has no bearing on whether a chemical will leave a sticky residue..... its like saying "5mph made my leg go green" 

I don't know what Ph honey is but if you put a diluted mixture on a carpet I guess this would cause re-soiling. but a specifically designed detergent mixed at a dilution of 400-1 (of which 80% is removed) will not. Considering on an average 14x14 living room you will leave 1 teaspoon of actual powder after cleaning and some of this will return to powder and be vacuumed up by the homeowner.

we need to come out of the 1960s were this information was born, then it was true with shampoos that were used to clean. Now we have had 50yrs of development by manufacturers who know that one of  our biggest concern is 'residue'

 the problem is some of the trainers in our industry learnt there trade then and work on the theory its better to be safe than sorry, and acid rinsing is the safest option so its better to teach that.

Hi Mike, from my experience i have found high alkaline based chemicals can be very aggressive and need to be used with caution as they can cause many problems, the pH scale is logarithmic so for example a high alkaline based chemical with a pH value of 12 is ten times more alkaline than a product with a pH value of 11 but it is a 100 times more alkaline than a product with a pH value of 10.  My point being as you have said now we have 50 years of development and with todays advancements in cleaning science there are many safe and effective cleaning technologies available where you can clean surfaces with more confidence. from my many years of experience in the industry i have come across and used many different brands of these harsh chemicals most containing the same caustic and corrosive ingredients i won't start naming them as they can be seen on the sds, just to say these high alkaline based chemicals are used in all divisions of the cleaning industry and do cause many problems on an array of surfaces. It will take many more years but i think its fair to say more and more people are looking at safer alternatives.

[Mike Halliday]

I have no doubt that high alkaline cleaning agents Can be aggressive, my post refers to their ill found reputation to cause re-soiling and the fact that people automatically mention re-soiling when they are mentioned but are unwilling to reference any actually studies to back it up and just use terms like 'in my years of experience' or give thier personal opinion as though it was fact.

[Derek_Walker]

Most carpet cleaners are not chemists and can only rely on the manufacturers and suppliers, to give us the right information about how their products work and perform. Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation, guessing, theories and hidden agenda's at work with no proof available. The sticky residue theory has been been around for decades and a lot of carpet cleaners will use this excuse for marketing purposes to set themselves apart from the so called cowboys or rug doctors with their soapy residue's.

[stuart_clark]

Des

I had a few problems about four years ago, but at that time I was using the water too hot and a fair bit of Ultimate master, dont get me wrong, its good stuff but dosent like pumps of any discription,
I mainly use Chemspec formula 70 but do use F90 and Oneclean and hiation cotton cleaner and can't say that I have had any problems, I tend to change the pump heads every two years because its more economical to to that rather than buy the service kits