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Clever Forum Name

  • Posts: 5942
What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« on: September 28, 2014, 03:55:55 pm »
Same settings.

Same pump.

What % would you class as acceptable. I have two pumps and there is a difference.

Smudger

  • Posts: 13459
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2014, 06:12:19 pm »
In what respect ?

Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

Bungle

  • Posts: 2549
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2014, 06:15:55 pm »
They pump differently  :P
We look at them, they look through them.

Clever Forum Name

  • Posts: 5942
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2014, 07:40:40 pm »
One pump takes 5 mins to pump 5L The other pump is 4.30 mins.

So at 20 40 60 80 99 flow.

The difference is around 35 seconds to fill the 5 L container

Don Kee

  • Posts: 4906
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2014, 07:47:26 pm »
Are your hose sizes, lengths all the same?

Clever Forum Name

  • Posts: 5942
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2014, 07:55:53 pm »
Yeah same setup in the tests.

Jonny 87

  • Posts: 3512
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2014, 08:23:45 pm »
Is that 5 minutes to pump 5 litres when it's in full flow and pressure?
Vision Technician / Visual Engineer /  Vision Enhancement Operative /...........................................................OnlyUseMeWFP AkA Jonny the Windy Wesher

Clever Forum Name

  • Posts: 5942
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2014, 08:33:34 pm »
Is that 5 minutes to pump 5 litres when it's in full flow and pressure?

One pump took 4.30 seconds the other took 5mins exactly to fill the 5L container.

Thats pumping via a 100 meter reel, then a small piece of pole hose. Say 35ft.

They are sold as 6LPM pumps but surely thats not with 100M of hose AND pole hose.

Any yes calibrated at 99 and flow 99

Clever Forum Name

  • Posts: 5942
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2014, 08:36:30 pm »
Sorry i have given you wrong figures. Those figures are at flow 20!!!!

At 99 flow it took 2 mins. So thats still 3L per min! not 6 But like i say thats via ALL the hose!

Jonny 87

  • Posts: 3512
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2014, 08:36:52 pm »
What kind of pump us it mate?

That's nowhere near enough flow for me.

I use shureflow 5lpm pumps and only have the controller is set at about 70 and gives me 2 litres per minute at he brush head.
Vision Technician / Visual Engineer /  Vision Enhancement Operative /...........................................................OnlyUseMeWFP AkA Jonny the Windy Wesher

Jonny 87

  • Posts: 3512
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2014, 08:37:52 pm »
Ah that sounds better,

Yeah I think the 6 lpm figure comes from directly out the pump with no connections on it etc.
Vision Technician / Visual Engineer /  Vision Enhancement Operative /...........................................................OnlyUseMeWFP AkA Jonny the Windy Wesher

Clever Forum Name

  • Posts: 5942
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2014, 08:47:04 pm »
Sorry its been a busy day here :(

They are aquatec pumps

So today i have been messing around with the pumps. I basically allowed them to run flat out for 5 mins and calibrated them to 99 flow and 99 pressure setting.

I timed how long it would take to fill a 5L container.

The setup was the same for each test. 100 meters of hose. Then 35ft pole hose. No brush head. No height to pump. I would basically start the pump up, let it flow for 30 seconds then swap over to filling a 5L container.

Pump 1 (Drivers Side)

Flow 99 - 130 Seconds
Flow 80 - 140 Seconds
Flow 60 - 157 Seconds
Flow 40 - 190 Seconds
Flow 20 - 263 Seconds

Pump 2 (Passenger Side)

Flow 99 - 168 Seconds
Flow 80 - 177 Seconds
Flow 60 - 188 Seconds
Flow 40 - 217 Seconds
Flow 20 - 300 Seconds

Difference (Between two pumps)

Flow 99 - 38 Seconds
Flow 80 - 37 Seconds
Flow 60 - 31 Seconds
Flow 40 - 27 Seconds
Flow 20 - 37 Seconds

Mean Average 170 ./. 5 = 34 seconds.

So at any given flow rate. The 2nd pump is 34 seconds slower. Which is around the 10% mark.

Is that acceptable?

Both pumps are 4 months old.

Spruce

  • Posts: 8647
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2014, 08:57:50 pm »
At one time Williamson's used to sell a 5.2 lpm and a 3.78 lpm Shurflo pump for window cleaning.

5.2  = 8000 946 138

3.78 = 8000 441 138

I have one of each on the van.

Identical pumps, motors etc but with a different cam.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

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Smudger

  • Posts: 13459
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2014, 09:16:55 pm »
Have you tried testing the pump on the same circuit IE, controller and through the same hose set up?

On our vans one pump/controller set up always starts to slow and eventually flash batt a good 10 minutes before the other, so somewhere the electrical side does not deliver the same power as the other, this happens all every setup in every van. Also, at a tee junction water will want to travel in one direction one of the pumps may not be getting a clean straight pipe compared to the other slowing the flow of water.

And as spruce pointed out they may not be the same pump, even a difference in age/use could affect the overall pumping capacity.


Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7744
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2014, 09:24:01 am »
Sorry its been a busy day here :(

They are aquatec pumps

So today i have been messing around with the pumps. I basically allowed them to run flat out for 5 mins and calibrated them to 99 flow and 99 pressure setting.

I timed how long it would take to fill a 5L container.

The setup was the same for each test. 100 meters of hose. Then 35ft pole hose. No brush head. No height to pump. I would basically start the pump up, let it flow for 30 seconds then swap over to filling a 5L container.

Pump 1 (Drivers Side)

Flow 99 - 130 Seconds
Flow 80 - 140 Seconds
Flow 60 - 157 Seconds
Flow 40 - 190 Seconds
Flow 20 - 263 Seconds

Pump 2 (Passenger Side)

Flow 99 - 168 Seconds
Flow 80 - 177 Seconds
Flow 60 - 188 Seconds
Flow 40 - 217 Seconds
Flow 20 - 300 Seconds

Difference (Between two pumps)

Flow 99 - 38 Seconds
Flow 80 - 37 Seconds
Flow 60 - 31 Seconds
Flow 40 - 27 Seconds
Flow 20 - 37 Seconds

Mean Average 170 ./. 5 = 34 seconds.

So at any given flow rate. The 2nd pump is 34 seconds slower. Which is around the 10% mark.

Is that acceptable?

Both pumps are 4 months old.

Were both pumps bought from the same place and do they both have the same heads fitted with the same outlets?

Also as Smudger has said have you tried measuring them on exactly the same power feed and with exactly the same house outlet and reel connected?

Ian Sheppard

  • Posts: 1238
Re: What is an acceptable difference between pumps?
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2014, 05:32:21 pm »
There are a number of factors which may have a marginal impact on flow rate. Some if these I have covered in an article ( link ) http://www.springltd.co/node/138
Combine them and you may see a slight variance even if every thing is almost identical. Differences  in flow between two pumps is not unusual.

Each pump will be slightly different in its water production, equally the hose wall of each line will expand at a slightly different rate. Pressure is created in the system by the pump and hose primarily and over the 110 + run we would expect to see a differential.

Some pumps are more  efficient. In some recent testing  we found that some pumps built pressure quicker than others and had a better current draw when compared. Some push fit connectors on the pump port can effect pressure and flow. For example Some pumps produce more flow at a lower setting. So a flow setting of 30 may give the same flow as 40 on a different pump

As with any pump, controller calibration is the key. Calibration tells the control what the base operating pressure of the system is . When flow is stopped the calibration setting will effect how long the control takes to DE the pump The higher the calibration the longer it tales to DE the pump. In turn the higher the pressure in the system.

Factors to take into account is hose wall resistance and any resistance created in the system by connectors, changes in hose size, angle adaptors at sharp angles.  These all have an impact on flow In effect any of these can create back pressure slowing the flow. In some cases increasing pressure will not increase flow due to the back pressure. You simply end up with very fast moving water.

I noted your test involved a open hose with no jets, even here the run of hose will create some back pressure and restrict the flow.

Looking at your table Pump 1 at flow 40 took 190 second to fill  5 litres. Pump 2 at flow 60 took 188 seconds. To answer your question re current, running pump 2 at 60 would draw approx 0.5 of an amp more.
rush
Pump 1 at 40 will be drawing up to about 2 to 2.5 amps an hour, Pump 2 at a flow of 60 will draw around 3 to 3.5 amps. so the combined current would not likely be more than 6 amps an hour.
Although you would likely find that once you have your brush and jets attached the difference in flow rates would be less as the jets will create pressure.
Although a sharply angled adaptor would effect this as the pump may have to work harder to over come the restriction. Remember a restriction will also increase back pressure and in turn effect flow.
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