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Lee Burbidge

  • Posts: 2287
I don't profess to know everything, but I think with my years in the window cleaning industry and study of today's market ( just as you have) causes me to hold views. Here is a conversation copied and pasted from our FB Group which is on going right now, just to bring you up to speed... I would love your views too.... I am always learning and I am enjoying the interaction of opposing views on this subject without malice. I ask that you guys all respect each other when you comment here, thanks :)

THE POST:
I was on the phone Friday afternoon when I answered the door.

Paulo the Brazilian stood at the door. At first I didn't recognise him. That soon evaporated, I ended my phone call and shuck his hand warmly. I was very pleased to see him and immediately invited him in.

Paulo is a window cleaner whom I met a year ago. I remember having a great chat with him about his pure freedom trolley and window cleaning in general.

We met when I was cleaning a customer in my village 4 doors down from my house and Paulo turned up to clean the house right next door.
On that day I showed him the CLX I was using at the time. I even let him try it on the front windows of his customer that was next to my customers house and showed him about how to rinse well for a top job.

So now Paulo is in my kitchen and not for the first time.

A year ago he wanted to sell up and so he came to me. I told him what I wanted to pay that was fair but he wanted a lot more.
He mentioned the Internet and that he has seen rounds go for 10 or 12 times there worth.

I told him those window cleaners are crazy and they will only sell to ppl that don't know better or not at all. They will not sell at these prices to seasoned window cleaners. When are window cleaners going to get this and stop making it difficult for other window cleaners wanting to close business transactions??
That's for the seller or the buyer.

Paulo left as he wanted way more for the round.

So here he is again, 1 year later, in my kitchen with over 700 pounds per month of work to sell.

He told me, "I want to accept your offer of 1,500 for the lot, work, equipment" ( top range digital pure freedom trolley)....

"You have it...." I said. He told me he had one or two companies interested in the work. Of course this was a bluff.

Roughly translated he wanted to close the deal quick. I picked up on that, but I was on my way out to a meeting. I shuck his hand, took all his exact details and thrust 40 quid in his hand.

I will ring you at 5pm. At 5pm I rang Paulo to arrange closing the deal and getting the whistle tour over the work. It's all up to date and not due till jan 2014 ( most of it) so that's good, as we have so much to finish before Christmas with schools etc.

BANG !- thats how buying and selling a round should work..... Smooth, trustful, like clock work and with a smile and no regrets!

Moral of the story?
(Sellers) If you want to sell a round, seriously settle on a price that will sell. 2,3 and may be 3 times any more may not be worth it.
Window cleaners would rather get the work them selfs no matter how much your round would set them up. Your round is not the carrot you thought at these dizzy heights.

(Buyers) Stick to your budget no matter how much the work will set you up. If you want to pay 2x the round but your budget to play with is 3x the round but the seller wants 4x the round. Walk away and immediately do a couple days leafleting, door knocking etc to make you feel better. Door knocking on a bad day you get nothing, on a good day you can pick up 200 quid of new work but still have the cash in the bank for the 2x round you wanna buy when it turns up

Lee Burbidge

  • Posts: 2287
The interactions on this subject thus far:

Matt: I'm with you on this lee. They try and sell for crazy amounts! The way my dad used to do it was work with the window cleaner on the round for free and he got all the money. Then next month you do round and give him the money. Then its yours. Fair deal id say
about an hour ago via mobile · Unlike · 1

Richard: BANG ON LEE, iwouldnt dream of buyin any round at any price to be honest i look around me and see so much work its just waitin for me to pick up should i decide i want to,
about an hour ago · Unlike · 1

Dean: I've got a £5 per month shop for sale in Leicester if you're interested. I'm after £60 cash for it. They pay every 90 days.
about an hour ago via mobile · Like · 2

Lee Burbidge: Matt *****That is a top way of doing it and if I had started out just now I would so use that! What if your business is already too big for you to commit to that time? Then asking the right questions will tell you straight away if the round is a goer or not with out even looking at the books. At this level the entrepreneurial spirit kicks in and you rationalise over the percentage loss that may come with a hand over of new business owner to a window cleaning business. If your lucky you will hardly loose any customers when you take over, but the average loss is around 10% any more than this then there are a whole lot of new questions you should be asking yourself.....
about an hour ago · Edited · Like

Lee Burbidge: Like why, is it my technique? Did I not do enough due diligence to find out how many competitors are in the area? How many knew the round was up for sale? Is somebody stealing the work with inside knowledge? These types of questions and many more...
about an hour ago · Like

Stuart: If we want to elevate our business to that of any other business then the entry price will be equivalent. If you wanted to buy a startup business with all the equipment and training and a 30% guaranteed customer base in any other industry what would you pay.
If we want to go back to the days of handind work over to any 'bucket Joe' who needs a bit of work the value of the industry in the eyes of the public will diminish.

Paulo's mistake was to try to sell the work to an established business where, in truth, the amount of work is comparatively poultry. Had he pitched the business and sold it on to a start up he may have seen more for his money.
about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Lee Burbidge: Dean **** I just got rid of a 5.00 shop in Leicester funny enough.... was grumbling about the 1.00 increase. This is largely due to the amount of chasing I was having to do for the money... it was his choice not to recognise the time and effort we put into his account
about an hour ago · Like · 1

Jason: 2/3 cleans is poor....and doesn't reflect the years of hard wirk put into building up a quality business
about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Lee Burbidge: Stuart *****I think you have to remember that Paulo pitched and left then returned 1 year later to do the deal again..... he had spoke to other window cleaners. The value he wanted was too high this is why he could not sell it to me or anyone.... as I said before you can only sell at the dizzy heights to newbies etc. ( is that fair that a Newbie has to pay so much. We are all the same, me thinks) Paulo did not make any mistakes apart from wanting too much for any window cleaner. But it is also true he could of sold to a much smaller firm for a bit more.... but trust goes a long way sometimes I think
about an hour ago · Like

Jonny: whats paulo gonna do now?
about an hour ago · Like

Lee Burbidge: Jason ***** lets explore that for a minute... you buy a 200 pound round of a guy in a pub for 400.... over 10 years you have built it up to 3,000 per month. Hard work comes with being a window cleaner, why should somebody else have to reward you more for that. As an example let us take the lowest multiple of 2X the round. Selling your round at 2x gives you 6,000. So you once paid out 400 and worked for 10 years keeping the money you quite rightly worked for for 10 years then you get another 5,600 for your business..... then this looks even better if you manage to sell it for 3x.... There is no doubt you have built up a quality business and it is now worth 5,600 more. Plus dont forget you can choose who buys your business so that you can pick the right window cleaner who you feel will look after your customers just as well as you did
about an hour ago · Edited · Like

Lee Burbidge: Jonny he is fitting kitchens
about an hour ago · Like

Lee Burbidge: Stuart *****Sure Paulo found out that the going rate for work was lower than he thought. He did try to sell to other window cleaners though who, as you said and as indeed you felt likewise, wouldn't be interested in x 10 value.

Now if a 'Business' is up for sale, i.e. Van, equipment, training and a hefty chunk of guaranteed customers. Then, as a business, it is worth much more.
about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Jason: The amount paid has to reflect the fact that your buying a life long business.......job security.......a rarity these days.
Id pay more than a poxy two cleans for that
about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Lee Burbidge: Jason *****don't get me wrong its your business, you can sell it for what you think... just like Paulo did. You would probably start high but end up lower than you wanted to be.
about an hour ago · Like

Lee Burbidge: Jason ***** since 2007 window cleaners have popped up from everywhere - there all looking for job security  Remember you are only buying GOOD WILL of customers. Just cus you bought the round does not mean they want you as their window cleaner
about an hour ago · Edited · Like · 1

Stuart: Lee if you sold off 1/4 of your business to a non-employee what % would you want?
about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Jason: Ive been in business 18 years now in the yorkshire area and have sold quite a lot of work to Seasoned window cleaners for no less than six cleans. .....
Times have changed.....its a professional business now!
about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Jonny: we are lucky that foreigners cannot get a decent foothold or we would be really in sh/tstreet by now . , now im not racist but its a fact they arent trusted the same as a whitey is around property .
about an hour ago · Like

Lee Burbidge: Stuart ****** I would try to sell for 3x and settle at 2x
about an hour ago · Like

Lee Burbidge: Jason ****** I have bought two rounds in the past 4 months for 2x
about an hour ago · Like

Stuart: When you do sell it let me do the transaction and I'll get you at least x5!
about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Dean:  There's a sandwich shop near to me that's just been sold for a decent price. I know that you're buying premises with that too but the customers are only "good will" customers too. Once you're ready to start trading again you can't make the customers come into the shop and buy your food. Its even worse than window cleaning. At least you stand a fighting chance buying a window cleaning round as you're buying a customer base.
about an hour ago via mobile · Like

Stuart: Having said that, with my past track record I'd probably end up giving it away.
59 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Jason: They should be willing to pay for that job security......even if they have to get a hefty bank loan.
We window cleaners need to stick together and raise the standards.....if people want our business they can pay for it.
After all us career window cleaners one day need to retire and possibly earlier than most with knackered knees/necks and elbows not to mention arthritis in our hands from extreme cold.
So a decent payout will certainly help
59 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Stuart: Dean ***** did you get my email?
59 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Ade:  I wouldn't buy a round Lee, I have built a round before and me and Mel are doing it again.Your buying nothing if you think about it, after your first clean they may not like you.
54 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Dean: I did mate yes, I've had a manic weekend and didn't want to just rush the reply. I'll get onto it today. Thanks Stu.
54 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Lee Burbidge: Stuart ***** Jason ***** remove the fact I buy at a fair price and yes I would buy for as much as some one will pay for it, if they wanted to... 5 times would be nice but doubtful with larger chunks of work. You can sell your rounds at 10 times the amount if you want to try. Modern days, yes a recession which puts you all in this weird quandary where window cleaning work is in demand but no one has the money to pay for it.... I am simply correcting the balance in my advise here
45 minutes ago · Edited · Like

Jason: Bank loans....
47 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Lee Burbidge: Jason *****Yup, I guess. Seriously, not many will do that. Back to square one.
42 minutes ago · Like

Lee Burbidge: In fact, only those with a redundancy pot or careful savings wanting to get into window cleaning or well established window cleaning firms are buying at the moment it would seem.
38 minutes ago · Like

Jason:I understand. .... however we need to raise the bar.
If people want a financially secure future they need to pay for it!
For those that cant afford it....... canvas! ...See More
35 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Lee Burbidge: Jason ******although that does depend on the round size ( after thinking about what you had said) if a round is worth a thousand per month and you want 5000 then, 5000 would be an easy round to get, I would say. That does mean tying in with legal obligations and risk to your credit file ( should you falter during winter times when you cant get round everyone - don't work, don't get paid)
28 minutes ago · Edited · Like

Lee Burbidge: Also it will take you 3 or 4 years to pay off and and extra 1,500 to pay out for the luxury of all that and 180 bill every month you cannot miss... off your 1000 income per month, plus customers can walk and you will loose up to 10% in hand over. Customer is not legally bound, seller happy with 5K and not legally bound- the buyer is now in debt and legally bound
31 minutes ago · Edited · Like

Jason: With regards to winter weather......a professional window cleaner will train their customers......
Wfp is not effected by rain......I work in the rain customers have learnt to acceot it.
Day in day out whatever the weather I work. ...excluding string winds.
Its a job with a regular reluable income if handled right.
31 minutes ago via mobile · Unlike · 1

Lee Burbidge: Jason **** correct^^^^^^^
29 minutes ago · Like

Jason : The trick is sell correctly......
What I mean is when you want to sell find an interested party then take them to work with you. (No wage deduct from final sale value)...let them do the work....meet the customers. ...hopefully the customers will like him and then when one day your not their but he is.....no probs....no lost customers!

Yes this takes time and effort but they will pay more if they are happy that the customers have already accepted him before parting with any cash of bank loans
22 minutes ago via mobile · Unlike · 1

Lee Burbidge: JS: "I understand. .... however we need to raise the bar.
If people want a financially secure future they need to pay for it!
For those that cant afford it....... canvas! " LEE: Correct, and I guess that is what is happening right now... so they are now canvassing over everyone else's work including yours because rounds are too expensive to buy - go figure...

JS: "Were not helping each other if we sell/buy at such low prices." LEE:Correct - but there is a balance that does. See all the above

JS:"Lets raise the bar.....and ultimately we will benefit more financially than making a quick and easy few quid!!!!!", LEE: I think you are referring to selling and buying rounds here. I think you mentioned 'modern times' before. We are in a weird time as described earlier, window cleaning rounds in demand and no one with money to pay for it.... this in turn will force window cleaners to go get their own work...
19 minutes ago · Edited · Like

Scott: i have no issue buying a round, i have paid for 2 but at my level i was happy to pay! il pay no more than x2 thats for sure! some work isnt worht face value
17 minutes ago · Unlike · 1

Lee Burbidge: Jason ***** if you look at Matt ****** post right up top, he suggested the same and could totally work.... but in Matt **** example the round value was 2x... it totally worked for ppl with no money to buy a round. However the same does not work for 5x + as they still need the money..... I am up for suggestions and ideas... but I still think rounds are over pricing themselves and will not sell easy in this market. The balance has to be 2x or 3x ensuring mass canvassers do not crawl all over your work you so diligently built over the years.... Jason Slater I never asked what would you sell at? What would be fair to you? - btw , your not in the hot seat... I totally enjoy our interaction here as I am also learning new stuff from your views
13 minutes ago · Like

Scott: someone wants x4/5/6 il be telling them to jogg on!
11 minutes ago · Like

Dave Mills

  • Posts: 277
Buy £1,000 of monthly work and rent it out.  Lets say 25%.

Buy at 2x, pay £2,000, return of £3,000 a year. 150% per annum on your investment
Buy at 4x, Pay £4,000, 75% on your investment
Buy at 10x, Pay £10,000, return 30% on your investment.
Buy at 20x, return 15% on your investment.

Contract to leave renter liable for replacing lost customers.

2x is utter, total madness.  Ill rip off anyones arm who wants to sell to me at 2x. I wont tell him hes an idiot but Ill think it.

Small but perfectley formed

  • Posts: 1743
Absolute minimum 3 x monthly value
Spit and polish

poleman

  • Posts: 2854
What's everyone's view....is the x amount what the work is worth for one whole clean or what it is worth one full month....?

JackieW

  • Posts: 865
Absolute minimum 3 x monthly value

Do you mean that's the minimum you'd be prepared to pay for a round?


♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
IMO it's not just black or white, there are many factors which would influence the price expected for any work/round.

There are many dreamers out there though ;D who think their "business" is up there with the likes of Tesco, McDonalds etc!! ;D

Unless there are official contracts in place to determine some degree of "guarantee" of return, then apart from any equipment, you are only buying "goodwill". Goodwill is not actually tax deductible either for sole traders or partnerships - regardless of whether you have used it as so or not!!

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
About 7 years ago I bought a quite a big round.
It still makes up a large percentage of my business now.
The guy selling wanted 5x.
I paid 1.5x
It's all down to supply & demand.
He needed to get out immediately.
At the time it seemed I was the only one with enough cash (or desire...)to give it to him straight away.
In under an hour he had £1k cash in his hand.
Paid the rest the following day.
The following week I'd started cleaning.

2 years ago a really good mate was selling up.
He was 'desperate to sell to me' as I'd worked his round quite a few times while he was on holiday. Not desperate to sell though-he didn't need the money.
He wouldn't drop from 5x though.
Even offered for me to work it off in full.
I wouldn't budge past 3 though.
I could afford to but didn't want to.
He sold to someone else for 5x
He could afford to wait, so got what he wanted.

I canvassed nearly as much as his round was worth in under a year after that.

I know the guy who bought it @ 5x and he seems to have made a success of it.

Supply & demand will ultimately dictate the price paid.
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

PurefectWindowCleaning

  • Posts: 2303
I sell houses at x4, simple.

A couple years back a new starter in my area bought ten £10 houses off me for £400. He has since packed it in and ive got a few of them back on my books.  ;D




Simon Mess

  • Posts: 1097
A window cleaning round is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

I started cleaning windows by buying a large part of an existing round, and while I am not going to say how much I paid for how much work, it was a lot more than what is being mentioned here. I was not in a position to start from scratch and build up a round, I simply didn't have enough time due to the hours I was working as a bus driver. Also, from the income point of view, I couldn't afford to stop working, and then start building a round. I needed a round that would pay the bill straight away, and being in north east Scotland, there just wasn't anything being offered that remotely fitted what I needed. But then my friends brother in law mentioned that he knew a window cleaner wanting to sell a large part of his round, and the rest is history!.

keyser soze

  • Posts: 1694
Re: Buying a window cleaning round? What is it REALLY worth in TODAYS market?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2013, 09:15:54 pm »
i paid 5 x and so far it seems to be working out ok . lost some, picked up others. put some prices up. some prices down.  paid 15 grand for it . got a 500 quid back after complaining a few customers hadn't paid up.. got a nice varied type of work.not all wfp (thankfully)

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: Buying a window cleaning round? What is it REALLY worth in TODAYS market?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2013, 09:22:41 pm »
i paid 5 x and so far it seems to be working out ok . lost some, picked up others. put some prices up. some prices down.  paid 15 grand for it . got a 500 quid back after complaining a few customers hadn't paid up.. got a nice varied type of work.not all wfp (thankfully)

Surely not? Why?!
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

keyser soze

  • Posts: 1694
Re: Buying a window cleaning round? What is it REALLY worth in TODAYS market?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2013, 10:34:50 pm »
because i wanted to keep them. too many peeps knew what i got for them . they don't now... i get a fair deal and the customer knows i'm a fair trader...

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: Buying a window cleaning round? What is it REALLY worth in TODAYS market?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2013, 11:12:49 pm »
Each to their own
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

Jonny 87

  • Posts: 3484
Re: Buying a window cleaning round? What is it REALLY worth in TODAYS market?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2013, 07:10:55 am »
IMO it's not just black or white, there are many factors which would influence the price expected for any work/round.

There are many dreamers out there though ;D who think their "business" is up there with the likes of Tesco, McDonalds etc!! ;D

Unless there are official contracts in place to determine some degree of "guarantee" of return, then apart from any equipment, you are only buying "goodwill". Goodwill is not actually tax deductible either for sole traders or partnerships - regardless of whether you have used it as so or not!!

+1

It's amazing how many people I know that buy work from someone and then claim that outlay as an expense.

Not the case at all.
Vision Technician / Visual Engineer /  Vision Enhancement Operative /...........................................................OnlyUseMeWFP AkA Jonny the Windy Wesher

Ste M

  • Posts: 1824
Re: Buying a window cleaning round? What is it REALLY worth in TODAYS market?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2013, 07:37:02 am »
Surely all your doing is undervaluing the business? If i was to sell up I'd want what I think its worth and it certainly wouldn't be 2 or 3 times its worth. Ive had the vast majority of my work for over 10 years and I'm not giving it up for a pittance.

So you have 40ks worth of monthly work and you've cleaned it for years, its now retirement time and your saying you would be willing to sell it for 6600. No way would you do that you would be mad

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: Buying a window cleaning round? What is it REALLY worth in TODAYS market?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2013, 08:27:40 am »
Surely all your doing is undervaluing the business? If i was to sell up I'd want what I think its worth and it certainly wouldn't be 2 or 3 times its worth. Ive had the vast majority of my work for over 10 years and I'm not giving it up for a pittance.

So you have 40ks worth of monthly work and you've cleaned it for years, its now retirement time and your saying you would be willing to sell it for 6600. No way would you do that you would be mad

What would you do if no one came forward willing to pay 5x, let it go for nothing?

Ste M

  • Posts: 1824
Re: Buying a window cleaning round? What is it REALLY worth in TODAYS market?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2013, 09:59:53 am »
No I just wouldn't sell. I doubt after years of running and building a round that you decide overnight to sell it. You would either sell up, lease it out or employ and take some off the top that way.

Are you telling me you would sell everything you've worked for for 2x the amount? Honestly

pdale

  • Posts: 283
Re: Buying a window cleaning round? What is it REALLY worth in TODAYS market?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2013, 12:21:04 pm »
There's a lot of factors in what a round is worth. Whether it's WFP or Trad is the first, how compact it is, price per hour, whether you have to collect or BACS, but i guess the main one is what someone is willing to pay.

Though 3x seems to be the norm on here, if a seller is willing to wait, not in a rush and will pay to advertise it on forums and also generally, then it's quite conceivable to get 5 or 6 times for it, then again if he's in a rush he may want to let it go cheaper.
Where am I knocking today?

HampshireWindowCleaning

  • Posts: 601
Re: Buying a window cleaning round? What is it REALLY worth in TODAYS market?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2013, 02:41:39 pm »
I sold a big round a year ago and got 5x for it easily, infact I still get 2 or 3 enquiries a month asking if the round is still available. I listed it on wforsale.co.uk and found a buyer within a week.
There is no way I would have let it go for any less after all the hundreds of hours of canvassing and leafleting i'd put into it and the years of refining it into a guaranteed income. I can't believe how low some of you must value your business's if you think that 2 or 3 times is a reasonable value, that's the kind of price you pay for canvassed work surely, not quality, established work.