[CLEANCARE WC]

Bacteria isn't a problem unless its drinking water - even then you'll find chlorination is a more cost effective method of dealing with it & the super low concentration of chlorine used would barely affect TDS anyway.

UV is simply overkill for window cleaning - its over complicating a very simple & otherwise inexpensive process.

Thats how they sell there systems by over complicating things to look like they are made by nasa to get people to part with 10k for something you could easily do yourself at a fraction of the cost.

[AuRavelling79]

The Emperors New Clothes.

Absolutely!

Touting PPB as necessary shows true cynicism; and accepting it shows true gullibility.

[Nick Wareham]

"I think UV is used on the water on the way in to kill them off so the membrane doesn't become contaminated. Ignores the fact that UK tap water is chlorinated so sterile anyway."

Ah yes but what is the first filter in an RO system?

Carbon, which is there to remove the chlorine, since chlorine damages the RO. That is why you get green gunk growing on the fluffy sediment filter, because there's no chlorine to kill the stuff.

[Lee Burbidge]

does it take a 1000 times longer for PPB system to reach 001 ?

if so i'm in  -  if not it's a crock of brown stuff

Darran

Apparently as you fill a PPB system over night it is consistently running the pure water through the resin over and over.

[[GQC] Tim]

"I think UV is used on the water on the way in to kill them off so the membrane doesn't become contaminated. Ignores the fact that UK tap water is chlorinated so sterile anyway."

Ah yes but what is the first filter in an RO system?

Carbon, which is there to remove the chlorine, since chlorine damages the RO. That is why you get green gunk growing on the fluffy sediment filter, because there's no chlorine to kill the stuff.

UV and softeners do prolong the life of a membrane. I don't have any figures on how long. I wouldn't say UV is a gimmick. Carbon filters house bacterial growth.

[dazmond]

just changed my resin yesterday.000.i use 2 DI vessels with a tap tds of 30-60tds.its good enough for window cleaning!pretty cheap too!

looks like i will have a good few days of first cleans next week so i would be interested to know if i was using a parts per billion system whether i would cut through the dirt quicker!

i would probably be better with a cheap hot water system but im fine with cold.once  first cleans are out of the way i find cleaning windows with wfp very quick and efficient!

me personally i just find ionics products very expensive and i dont like their slick marketing campaigns,over engineered propaganda.

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

I'll give them their due- Ionics are MASTERS at marketing!!!

The fact that they are selling these machines at a premium also proves just how gullible some people are!!


THIS IS A TOTAL CON!! NOTHING ELSE TO IT!

[Perfect Windows]

"I think UV is used on the water on the way in to kill them off so the membrane doesn't become contaminated. Ignores the fact that UK tap water is chlorinated so sterile anyway."

Ah yes but what is the first filter in an RO system?

Carbon, which is there to remove the chlorine, since chlorine damages the RO. That is why you get green gunk growing on the fluffy sediment filter, because there's no chlorine to kill the stuff.

Not in mine.  Carbon is last, after the sediment filter, after the pump, immediately before the RO.  That's so that gunk DOESN'T grow anywhere else!  I can't se any benefit at all in having it as first filter.

Vin

[Nathanael Jones]

The green gunk on your sediment filter is algae - the cheapest, easiest & most effective way to get rid of the problem is a pot of black paint,.. if you stop sunlight getting in, the algae won't be able to grow!

And whilst I'm sure UV etc does prolong membrane life as has been mentioned - the gain is small compared to the cost. I'd hazard a guess that the extra electric bill for running UV would cost more than the earlier replacement of membranes when averaged out over time.

"I think UV is used on the water on the way in to kill them off so the membrane doesn't become contaminated. Ignores the fact that UK tap water is chlorinated so sterile anyway."

Ah yes but what is the first filter in an RO system?

Carbon, which is there to remove the chlorine, since chlorine damages the RO. That is why you get green gunk growing on the fluffy sediment filter, because there's no chlorine to kill the stuff.

[Lee Burbidge]

I am in Carlisle today to speak to a window cleaner who has actually used PPB ( or using, cant remember now) will let you know how I got on and what makes him Pro PPB

[Ian Lancaster]

just changed my resin yesterday.000.i use 2 DI vessels with a tap tds of 30-60tds.its good enough for window cleaning!pretty cheap too!

looks like i will have a good few days of first cleans next week so i would be interested to know if i was using a parts per billion system whether i would cut through the dirt quicker!

i would probably be better with a cheap hot water system but im fine with cold.once  first cleans are out of the way i find cleaning windows with wfp very quick and efficient!

me personally i just find ionics products very expensive and i dont like their slick marketing campaigns,over engineered propaganda.

As the TDS meters we use only tell you if there is LESS than 1ppm, for all you know you could already be using less than 1ppb.  Do Ionics supply a meter that tells you how many parts per billion there is in the water?

[MATT BATEMAN (OWC)]

You would've thought they'd be on here correcting any 'errors' of judgement 

[Lee Burbidge]

Has anyone actually tried a PPB...?

[cleartech Window Cleaners]

I've tried one and no they don't have a meter to measure the ppb water. You have to take their word for it that it is actually ppb. The only way you can get it measured is if you take it along to a university science dept and apparently they have the facilities to do this.

[formb]

I remember speaking to an Ionics salesman. This was many years ago so probably not PPB, but the point is still valid.

He said to me 'with this system you can clean windows anywhere in the world'. 'Great' I said 'with my home made job I can clean windows anywhere this side of the A96'.

[Ian Lancaster]

I remember speaking to an Ionics salesman. This was many years ago so probably not PPB, but the point is still valid.

He said to me 'with this system you can clean windows anywhere in the world'. 'Great' I said 'with my home made job I can clean windows anywhere this side of the A96'.

Brilliant

And in our case, anywhere east of the A23

[G Griffin]

I've tried one and no they don't have a meter to measure the ppb water. You have to take their word for it that it is actually ppb. The only way you can get it measured is if you take it along to a university science dept and apparently they have the facilities to do this.

And I bet they'd be thrilled about window cleaners turning up to get their water tested.

[EandM]

Parts Per Billion systems offer no noticeable real world advantage at all in a window cleaning environment - the whole PPB thing is a huge pile of steaming marketing BS. Here's why:

For the sake of simplicity I'm going to use round numbers in this explanation - but do the math with your own TDS readings and see for your self.

I have a 1000 litre static tank, a tap TDS of 300 and for the sake of math, lets say I use water at 001 (I always aim for 000).

So - 1000 litres = 1000,000 (1 million) milliliters - with water 1ml = 1gram, so 1000 litres of tap water contains 300grams of dissolved solids - of which my RO & DI remove 299 grams.

Keeping up so far?? Lets try that math with a system kicking out 1PPB:

My 1000 litre tank still contains 300grams of dissolved solids, the fancy new system now removes 299.999grams of dissolved solids - nearly a whole extra gram!!

So - the PPB system actually removes 0.333% (One third of one percent) more dissolved solids from my water - - instead of 1000x better its actually 0.00333x better.

It is however 1000x better at telling you when you need to change your filters - so consumables on these systems probably make their manufacturers more profit,..


I know the marketing says "1000x purer" which is (technically) correct - but Ionics infer that this makes it better for dirty jobs/first cleans, that it offers noticeably superior cleaning power and will give more consistent results than a PPM system - all of which is ridiculous.

Its like everyone complaining that its -20C outside & they cant work,.. I come along & say "Don't worry lads - I have a solution that will stop your water going below -19.7C,.. tomorrow you're going to earn at least £500!".



I think we should take this post and pin it as the definitive answer and ongoing proof of The Law Of Diminishing Returns.

[Lee Burbidge]

I've tried one and no they don't have a meter to measure the ppb water. You have to take their word for it that it is actually ppb. The only way you can get it measured is if you take it along to a university science dept and apparently they have the facilities to do this.

What did you think of the PPB after trying it? Was it at a demo? What were your thoughts?

[STEVE-UK]

can you not just fill your existing DI up with the nuclear grade resin to get the same results?

http://www.gapswater.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fgapswater%2eco%2euk%2f&WD=resin%20nuclear&PN=Purolite%2dNRW3240%2d%2dprev%2e%2dNRW37%2d%2dnuclear%2dgrade%2dmixed%2dbed%2dresin%2dDI%2dresin%2d%2d25%2dlitres%2d2162%2ehtml