[benny donnelly]

I'm in the position were I have a full packed round and I have a part time worker on board to, he is a great worker, is keen on the job, is paid well and is mad to go full time which has got me thinking about maybe setting him up with his own van...

Its only an idea at the min but a very interesting one, is anyone doing this at the min or is anyone thinking about doing it? Am I best to concentrate on my own round or is a 2nd van expansion defo the way to go?

[telfordwindowclnr]

We've had threads on this before. I have 3 part timers. Van is a two man system. For me to run a vehicle, pay wages etc, it would cost 18-20k per year. That's BEFORE I have made a single penny profit. For me, the grief would outweigh the profit. My father in law went the other way. He employed 2 full time, had 3 vans.  Had it like that for years. 3 months ago he had to make them both redundant and give them redundancy packages. He now has one van with one part time. WHY?  There wasn't the profit.

I'm not saying I am correct, it's just an experience, but one I have learned a lot from.

[Total shine cleaning services]

hi mate, I'm going to a 2nd van in April, have a part timer but he will go full time then, nothing flash either another transit or a scudo with a delivery system in it, have priced it all out and it's feasible, I'm now carding and canvassing to build the round, I think there will be a transition period when he first comes on of not having quite enough work for two but as long as he at at least covers his wage in the first month or two it's feasible, he is willing to do whatever ,cleaning, canvassing etc, go for it is what I say.

graham

[Ben wood]

I've been toying Witherspoon the idea for two years now but if tour have two vans running one with twowworkers and one with you don't forget you will be over the vat threshold and then you will end up paying higher rates of tax as earnings well. Then you will need to get a unit. After all the outgoings you would properly need at least 4 vans out to make much more than you would with one van you and a worker. I am going to do just this and price my new work very high to get the most out of my van and worker.

[Total shine cleaning services]

I think two vans and two workers is the way forward, it will just about keep you under the vat threshold once they've had downtime for holidays etc, 2 men in one van only works if u have lots of compact work as the travel time plays a major factor between jobs

graham

[Ian101]

I think two vans and two workers is the way forward, it will just about keep you under the vat threshold once they've had downtime for holidays etc, 2 men in one van only works if u have lots of compact work as the travel time plays a major factor between jobs

graham

+1 ............ small vans .... 1 man so you can see who is doing what and pay a fair wage to keep em motorvated only thing I would suggest is to set each van up as a 2 man operation so you can lend a hand when behind plus you can turn up unannounced every now and again to keep an eye on em.

All Im saying is theory only at the moment .... this time next year Rodney blah blah etc etc 

[gewindows]

We've had threads on this before. I have 3 part timers. Van is a two man system. For me to run a vehicle, pay wages etc, it would cost 18-20k per year. That's BEFORE I have made a single penny profit. For me, the grief would outweigh the profit. My father in law went the other way. He employed 2 full time, had 3 vans.  Had it like that for years. 3 months ago he had to make them both redundant and give them redundancy packages. He now has one van with one part time. WHY?  There wasn't the profit.

I'm not saying I am correct, it's just an experience, but one I have learned a lot from.

Had to make 2/3 rds of the companies work-force redundant, in this game? What was he doing wrong?

[robert mitchell]

Pryor has two vans and seems to do very well out of it .

[Window Washers]

2 men in one van is never going to make the same as one man per van that's an obvious and logical fact, Unless of course they are day rates on commercial work

Apart from that no chance.

is it a good idea to have twin man operator system 100% yes, the times that has saved me money is untrue.



 

[Rogue Trader]

Did you know that minimum wage for a 16 - 18 year old is £3.50 per hour? As a second man in your van the added expense of this is not too great, not tried it yet but will be in the next few weeks.

Pryors says he is doing very well with 2 vans but you really shouldnt believe everything you read on the internet.

[roundbuilder]

Did you know that minimum wage for a 16 - 18 year old is £3.50 per hour? As a second man in your van the added expense of this is not too great, not tried it yet but will be in the next few weeks.

Pryors says he is doing very well with 2 vans but you really shouldnt believe everything you read on the internet.

I may look into that. Sack them soon as they reach 19 lol.

[Ian101]

Did you know that minimum wage for a 16 - 18 year old is £3.50 per hour? As a second man in your van the added expense of this is not too great, not tried it yet but will be in the next few weeks.

Pryors says he is doing very well with 2 vans but you really shouldnt believe everything you read on the internet.

I may look into that. Sack them soon as they reach 19 lol.

this happens in pubs and resteraunts quite a lot

[Window Washers]

Did you know that minimum wage for a 16 - 18 year old is £3.50 per hour? As a second man in your van the added expense of this is not too great, not tried it yet but will be in the next few weeks.

Pryors says he is doing very well with 2 vans but you really shouldnt believe everything you read on the internet.

I may look into that. Sack them soon as they reach 19 lol.

have you ever emyed 16/ 19 year olds  would rather pay a better wage with people over 30

[Ian Lancaster]

In March the VAT threshold rises to £77,000.  This equates to £1,481 per week.  From that you have to pay two employees (say minimum £600 for the two), pay all the expenses involved (van/tax/insurance/fuel/employers NI contributions/employers Public Liability/holiday pay/wear and tear on equipment etc) - say another £400 a week, leaves just under £500 for yourself.

If you want to expand without crossing the VAT limit, it doesn't add up.  You'd be much better off staying as a one man band and turning over a grand a week just for yourself.

[Rogue Trader]

M y thinking regarding getting a 16 - 18 year old as a second man is this :

The added expense to the van would be say £30 per day for his wages,

The added turnover the van could do with a second man would be 50% or better if jobs are big,

If 1 man is turning over £200 per day , then with a boy as a second operator you will be turning over £300

= £70 extra profit per day = £350 extra profit per week per van.

For those of you that have 2 vans or more this could provide a real boost in profit with little outlay. (aside the possible need to turn 1 man vans into 2 man vans)

The Problem i hear you all cry is the reliability of said 16 - 18 year old minimum wage earner. This formula would hinge on this and that will remain to be seen,

Although if a lad does turn out to be unreliable then the 2 man van will still be a 1 man van as it always was until another young scrote turns up.

[Window Washers]

M y thinking regarding getting a 16 - 18 year old as a second man is this :

The added expense to the van would be say £30 per day for his wages,

The added turnover the van could do with a second man would be 50% or better if jobs are big,

If 1 man is turning over £200 per day , then with a boy as a second operator you will be turning over £300

= £70 extra profit per day = £350 extra profit per week per van.

For those of you that have 2 vans or more this could provide a real boost in profit with little outlay. (aside the possible need to turn 1 man vans into 2 man vans)

The Problem i hear you all cry is the reliability of said 16 - 18 year old minimum wage earner. This formula would hinge on this and that will remain to be seen,

Although if a lad does turn out to be unreliable then the 2 man van will still be a 1 man van as it always was until another young scrote turns up.

the problems I see on this

sadly many unreliable have nothing really to lose as mummy and daddy will support them. (I have a 17 year old son, so speak from experience getting him out of bed is hard enough)

two it takes time to train people, training people costs money in lost time, I would rather pay a better wage and get better staff that NEED the job trying to scrim hear would IMO be a nightmare (could be wrong, just IMO)

[Rogue Trader]

I have though about the down time re training them but this can be done by the driver in a few days and without much of a drop in turnover. In the past i have trained new starters myself and spent all day for a few days just doing minimal work and cleaning then recleaning windows , i have also literally put a new starter with a driver and told him to show the new guy the ropes while still meeting target which has been succesful. I dont think that you have to pay during training either , and an unpaid training period may give you a good idea of their reliability.

[groundhog]

In March the VAT threshold rises to £77,000.  This equates to £1,481 per week.  From that you have to pay two employees (say minimum £600 for the two), pay all the expenses involved (van/tax/insurance/fuel/employers NI contributions/employers Public Liability/holiday pay/wear and tear on equipment etc) - say another £400 a week, leaves just under £500 for yourself.

If you want to expand without crossing the VAT limit, it doesn't add up.  You'd be much better off staying as a one man band and turning over a grand a week just for yourself.

Hi Ian, I've not been on here for a long time, but just wondered how the franchising was going? And do you still think this is a better route, than employing? Cheers 

[Ian Lancaster]

In March the VAT threshold rises to £77,000.  This equates to £1,481 per week.  From that you have to pay two employees (say minimum £600 for the two), pay all the expenses involved (van/tax/insurance/fuel/employers NI contributions/employers Public Liability/holiday pay/wear and tear on equipment etc) - say another £400 a week, leaves just under £500 for yourself.

If you want to expand without crossing the VAT limit, it doesn't add up.  You'd be much better off staying as a one man band and turning over a grand a week just for yourself.

Hi Ian, I've not been on here for a long time, but just wondered how the franchising was going? And do you still think this is a better route, than employing? Cheers 

Hi Groundhog,

It's going great!

As you're asking what I think - obviously I think there's no comparison.  I've been "retired" for three years now (I'm still officially an employee of my Ltd Company) but I do very little work.  My wife does the admin, checking the Aworka records and issuing invoices (about 2-3 hours a week) and I follow up on enquiries, keep a stock of spares and make myself available to answer questions and help solve problems etc.

We have 10 Franchisees and 10 signwritten vans (eleven if you include mine).  How much hassle and expense would that cost us if they were employees?

Four of those Franchisees are 'sub' - they are part of my Master Franchisee's growing network.  Another has asked if he can be granted an area to develop a second Master Franchise so I guess you could say it's going really well.

I'm better off now I'm retired than I was when I was working and my wife and I have a week away in our motorhome once a month (except next month when we're going on a cruise).

None of that would have been possible without us having created our Franchise Network.

Happy days!!

Cheers,

Ian

[Rogue Trader]

Hi Ian,

I imagine that you are thinking abouit the VAT limit due to your last post on this thread , i assume you are around that sort of turnover if not higher as a franchisor with 10/11 franchisees, presumably if you are registered or will be registered then you will have to add vat to your 20% that you charge the franchisee's.?

I am not being nosey but just wondering about this as franchising with one of your packages is a possibility for me at some time in the future and i havent let the VAT threshold hold back my expansion as things stand and i wouldnt want it to hold me back if i were to turn my vans into franchisees and build on them.

What are your thoughts on this Ian?

Thanks

Matt