[Window Washers]

Just wondering which if you use a water softener on your system.

To make clear to a few guys, a water softener softens water.

If you have one why did you get one ?

Does this is save or cost you money, have you ever looked into this ?

[Lee GLS]

I used to have one, it was just a resin bottle filled with the softening resin. The trouble is, the need flushing with salt every other day, so the softening resin bottle has to be disconnected from your system. The time/effort and the cost of the salt really don't make it worth having one, I used mine for a couple of months then ditched it.

I like in a really hard water area, tap tds is about 400, and tds of the water out of my 4040 RO is now 12, and that membrane is over 2 years old, so it's still going strong and as probably hot another 1-2 years left in it.

I really don't see that the softener would have made much difference if I had carried on using it for the last 2 years.

[Window Washers]

Cheers Lee,

Anyone else use one ?

[poleman]

Im in a hard water area (poole) and yes it does help! I was in the frame of mind for years that it was a waste of money but for me so glad I have one now, as many say it does not bring down the tds but it does with my system (40 40 ro) I have had it down to 6 tds

[Lee GLS]

Water softeners do not effect the tds, I've experimented with it on and off and the output tds always stays the same

[Window Washers]

Cheers poleman that's interesting
On the tds what was it before you had one ?

[Spruce]

Water softeners do not effect the tds, I've experimented with it on and off and the output tds always stays the same

Water softeners have the wrong name. They remove the magnesium and calcium ions in the water and replace them with sodium ions. This is why Lee has correctly found they don't reduce the waters tds. It is the magnesium and calcium deposits in the water that cause the scum on a cup of tea.

Sodium ions are much easier on r/o membranes than magnesium and calcium ions are, so in a way a water softener is/could be a good idea if you live with a high calcium concentration water area.

I spoke to a water softener business owner with regard to this same subject many years ago, and his advice was to forget these cheap manual flushing systems. If you are in a hard water area (like Reading at the time) then the best solution is a large stand alone system that has auto flush and incorporate it into the water supply to your whole home.

You must then have a regular maintenance routine to replace the salt when it becomes exhausted.

[Window Washers]

So do you have one spruce ( or is it you that I met and has stupidly low tds that I am envious about ) sorry I'm getting old

[[GQC] Tim]

I was told by June at Gaps water a long time ago that's it's not really necessary. It's easier on the membrane, but they last long enough in my circumstances.

[Spruce]

So do you have one spruce ( or is it you that I met and has stupidly low tds that I am envious about ) sorry I'm getting old

Hi Ian

Yes, I had the pleasure of meeting you in Teesside not so long back - the old guy with his blue Citroen Relay - my son was with me.

You were very helpful in my early days on this forum when I was a very raw WFPer and I will be always eternally grateful for that help. Thank you. One of the photo's you sent me was of a 650 litre tank fitted to your Ducato/Relay/Boxer? van so I could see where and how PF fitted it. I had been struggling with one of Peter Fogwill trailer systems for a few years towed by my Suzuki Carry van. This forum and you became part of my scene when I scrapped the trailer for my first Citroen Relay van - a major step up for me at the time.

Our tds is around 115ppm so we don't have a softener.  

When I spoke to this business owner about a softener our water was about 250. I originally thought that if we got a water softener we could use that to solve our tds issues and fill the van's directly from that.

After we had the conversation about the water tds not changing I stuck with our 200GPD RoMan r/o but upgraded it to a 450GPD unit by changing membranes.

This year I have upgraded to a 4040, but was extremely worried about the effectiveness of carbon block filters and had just purchased a Chlor Plus carbon block filter which is supposed to reduce chlorine for 100,000 gallons (American).

Your experience with standard carbon block filters and your changing them every 6 months regardless was very reassuring and did settle me down a bit. Your experience was that your water had a much higher tds than ours and that despite this you still got a good life cycle from your membranes. The trouble is that warnings now come on each carbon block filter/GAC filter that they only have a service life of 2500 gallons - a waste a of time for us WFPers.

[Lee GLS]

Hi spruce, sorry to but in Ian  , but where do you get those carbon filters from. I didn't realise that the standard carbon filter is only good for 2500 gallons. I usually leave mine on for 6-8 months 

[Spruce]

I was told by June at Gaps water a long time ago that's it's not really necessary. It's easier on the membrane, but they last long enough in my circumstances.

Hi Tim,

I think that you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. If its going to add a couple of months of life to a membrane then they are hardly worth the time, trouble and expense buying and maintaining them.

However, one of the big problems with high tds water is calcification of water pipes through the home, so in these instances it would be better to fit a softener as 'softened' water also dissolves the calcium form the inside of the pipes and improves water flow. This was a major problem in South Africa where we lived. Take off a section of pipe and it would be thickly lined inside with calcium scale and a tiny hole through the centre. Fitting a water softner would have been cheaper than removing all the pipes in the wall and replacing them and then having to retile bathrooms, showers and kitchens.

One of the lads who I have seen on here for years (CNC) lives/lived in Hartlepool and they have a very high tds - he said it was 550. Their home water supply was just a trickle with very poor pressure due to calcification of pipes. He had all sort of issues trying to run a 4040.  

[Spruce]

Hi spruce, sorry to but in Ian  , but where do you get those carbon filters from. I didn't realise that the standard carbon filter is only good for 2500 gallons. I usually leave mine on for 6-8 months  

Hi Lee

http://www.osmotics.co.uk/products/Pentek-ChlorPlus-Carbon-Block-Filter-20%22.html

I have always used GAC filters over the years. I did an internet search and at one time the GAC filters performed better than carbon block filters at removing chlorine.

So when I changed over to a 4040 I opted for 20" prefilters and GAC carbon filters. This was the first time I had seen a label on the package that gave this service life of 2500 gallons which floored me. I used to replace my prefilters every 3 months on my RoMan filter and as we would be using the same amount of water, presumed that as these were 20" GAC filters and not 10", they should be good for the same time period.

I asked Osmotics and a couple of other suppliers if this was so. I had worked out that I would have to change my carbon filters once a week (we also included dechlorinating waste water in this calculation.) Osmotics were the only ones who replied and they suggested this CB filter for my window cleaning application. Osmotics also confirmed that the service life of the 10" GAC filter was also 2500 gallons which they never provided a satisfactory answer to why this was the same as it's bigger brother.

I also see that this is 100,000 gallons of chlorine reduction, which is not the same as chlorine removal.

I started to think along the lines of buying a chlorine tester to try to decide how good these filters were over time, but when Ian came along saying that he uses more water than I do a week and that he changes his at 6 months, (standard CB) then my concerns eased a little.

I'm not totally happy about this though. I'm following the experiences of Vin from Perfect Windows in Southampton as he is experiencing early 4040 membrane failure and now has a seperate di vessels filled with carbon granules. He believes he has a problem with either chlorine or bacteria destroying his membranes. This di vessel prefilter will remove one of the causes from the list.

I had also thought of replacing the GAC filter each week with a filter I had filled with ganulated carbon myself as another solution.

My previous experience with GAC filters is that my RoMan membranes lasted 6 years, so chlorine wasn't an issue with them.

The other thing I'm concerned about is that I opted for an HF5 membrane with our 40 psi water pressure. My unit isn't boosted. Now I hear from Alex Gardiner that the HF5 is more tightly wound than the HF4 and can clog up with deposits easier than the HF4, (I don't understand this - my mechanical logic would tell me that it is less tightly wound) which also leads to early membrane failure.

So if my new membranes don't last, is it chlorine or the membrane design at the root of the failure? One thing is that if a little chlorine seeps past the chlorine block filter then it should kill any bacteria buildup around the membranes.

You have had your 4040 for a while now and I haven't heard of you complaining about your membrane's performance, so you must be on the right track with what you are currently doing IMHO.

Interestingly the cb filter from Osmotics is a 1 micron so the carbon filter looks as dirty as the sediment filter.

[andyM]

Water companies monitor the amount of Chlorine in the water supply.
If you go on your water suppliers website they should be able to give a water quality reading for your area.
This will show a Chlorine reading in milligrams per litre of the sample taken.
However to my knowledge there is no legal upper limit to the amount of Chlorine that can be added to drinking water.
Scary thought............  

[Spruce]

Water companies monitor the amount of Chlorine in the water supply.
If you go on your water suppliers website they should be able to give a water quality reading for your area.
This will show a Chlorine reading in milligrams per litre of the sample taken.
However to my knowledge there is no legal upper limit to the amount of Chlorine that can be added to drinking water.
Scary thought............ 

This is interesting.

They will be putting the minimal amount in as that will save money on chlorine, but they need to flush the pipes from time to time and i'm sure they need to do a chlorine boost as well.

Sometimes in the morning our cold water from the cold water tap stinks of chlorine. So we try to wait for a bit before the r/o is used to allow this stuff the clear the pipes.

[Window Washers]

Hi spruce, sorry to but in Ian  , but where do you get those carbon filters from. I didn't realise that the standard carbon filter is only good for 2500 gallons. I usually leave mine on for 6-8 months 

lol no problem Lee

Spruce Thank you thats a very nice thing to say, im glad I helped you out mate

alot of the parts on these system are tested for something else I swear they are.

I did a calculation about the softener that I was sold, I worked out that a couple of hundred pounds membrane would infact cost me way over £10,000 (very strange indeed) if i used a softener (I forgot to add the cost of the wasted water into this)

Has anyone looked at the duel filter from grippatank is carbon/sediment in one.

This will be the next thing I test out.

Have to say there systems are very good too as are the guys that work there, I met them all at NVQ training yesterday.

I never used the three filters still think this was a sales add on from suppliers with no monatry gain to us.

stepping down to 1 instead of two may make it even easier though

[andyM]

Water companies monitor the amount of Chlorine in the water supply.
If you go on your water suppliers website they should be able to give a water quality reading for your area.
This will show a Chlorine reading in milligrams per litre of the sample taken.
However to my knowledge there is no legal upper limit to the amount of Chlorine that can be added to drinking water.
Scary thought............  

This is interesting.

They will be putting the minimal amount in as that will save money on chlorine, but they need to flush the pipes from time to time and i'm sure they need to do a chlorine boost as well.

Sometimes in the morning our cold water from the cold water tap stinks of chlorine. So we try to wait for a bit before the r/o is used to allow this stuff the clear the pipes.

Apparantly as a guideline water companies in the UK try not to use more than 0.5 milligrammes of Chlorine per litre.
The water quality report in my area is giving a reading of 0.39 milligrammes per litre.
The situation you describe Spruce of the strong smell of Chlorine doesn't sound normal and presumably that could be high levels of Chlorine, even higher than 0.5 milligrammes.
Do you know if your water company uses Chlorine or Chloramine (Chlorine & Ammonia) for disinfection?
It would be interesting to find out the Chlorine level which is stated on your local areas Water Quality report.

[Spruce]

Hi spruce, sorry to but in Ian  , but where do you get those carbon filters from. I didn't realise that the standard carbon filter is only good for 2500 gallons. I usually leave mine on for 6-8 months  

lol no problem Lee

Spruce Thank you thats a very nice thing to say, im glad I helped you out mate

alot of the parts on these system are tested for something else I swear they are.

I did a calculation about the softener that I was sold, I worked out that a couple of hundred pounds membrane would infact cost me way over £10,000 (very strange indeed) if i used a softener (I forgot to add the cost of the wasted water into this)

Has anyone looked at the duel filter from grippatank is carbon/sediment in one.

This will be the next thing I test out.

Have to say there systems are very good too as are the guys that work there, I met them all at NVQ training yesterday.

I never used the three filters still think this was a sales add on from suppliers with no monatry gain to us.

stepping down to 1 instead of two may make it even easier though

I presume that this is the same unit as Alex Gardiner sells.

I made a cost comment in April with regard to this and he quickly replied with this

The carbon has a 6 month/350,000 litre life, however I do have one client here in Cornwall (soft water) who has successfully managed 18 months use from one with no change in production quality and rate. He has now just changed it though as he did not want to risk his membranes. Due to the size of these units they are the equivalent of having a separate sediment and 5 separate carbon block filters of a usual 10" size. This is why they last so long. Also they provide far better contact for each litre of water with the media as it travels through the filter compared to standard 10"/20" items.

In view of all this and my added experience in the last few months, this is now an interesting observation.

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=150746.0

If the cb/sediment combined filter is more efficient than any 20" CB then this is worth a look.

Alex has them at a reduced price at the moment.

[Lee GLS]

Thanks for the info spruce.

With regards RO the ez pure pre filter, do you know if you have to replace the who thing each time, or do they have a replaceable filter inside to make replacement costs cheaper?

[Window Washers]

Thanks for the info spruce.

With regards RO the ez pure pre filter, do you know if you have to replace the who thing each time, or do they have a replaceable filter inside to make replacement costs cheaper?

as far as i am aware you can replace the filter,

on the grippa tank systems there di vessel is also changeable yourself if you want to do that or just replace it.