[formb]

After all the talk about the perils of flat roofs, I'd be interested to know what the general consensus is.

Personally I think that there is a H&S issue with flat roofs. We have a claim on our insurance where a ladder which had been used to access a flat roof blew over and landed on a car.

We have since came to the decision to avoid flat roofs but I find it bizarre that there would be training courses designed specifically for the window cleaning industry which do not directly address the issue. 'if you have any sense you will not do it' is all well and good, but what if you are chasing a large contract and access from flat roofs is included? Are you supposed to tell them that yes you are H&S compliant, with certification and everything, but you cant clean some of their windows as the H&S course you attended didn't cover it?

I'll tell you now it won't wash with any facilities management company in the country, it just wont.

A window cleaning specific safety training course which does not cover this issue is adding to the problem.

[Dave Willis]

Don't waste your breath They will only lock the subject.

If you don't know the answer go on a course.

[formb]

Don't waste your breath They will only lock the subject.

Why would they do that?

All this talk of Health and Safety can only be a good thing. Whether you benefit financially or not 

[Moderator David@stives]

Mark

Why would we lock it,

Have you seen me lock any difficult questions to Andrew ?

Have you seen me lock any which are just goading Andrew, when really I would have every right too ?


I dont know where you get your ideas, I really don't   

Maybe Tosh locked them because they had run there course

[Granny]

After all the talk about the perils of flat roofs, I'd be interested to know what the general consensus is.

Personally I think that there is a H&S issue with flat roofs.

Roofing, Painting and Decorating, Window Cleaning and all other DIY activities over a considerable time - the ONLY time I have ever had a fall from a ladder was??

Using a ladder to go over a garage flat roof to clean the backs.

It's not the climbing up it's the stepping down - lowered the ladder to step down and even though I'd done it several times before the ladder went
Next I'm on the deck.
BTW I have no axe to grind with this H$S debate that seems to be winding people up

[SPE]

I voted for "NO I can already clean them safely"
I just don't get it whats so dangerous about a flat roof ?, its flat .
Health and safety ? did it not used to be called "common sense" ?

Simon

[trevor perry]

After all the talk about the perils of flat roofs, I'd be interested to know what the general consensus is.

Personally I think that there is a H&S issue with flat roofs. We have a claim on our insurance where a ladder which had been used to access a flat roof blew over and landed on a car.

We have since came to the decision to avoid flat roofs but I find it bizarre that there would be training courses designed specifically for the window cleaning industry which do not directly address the issue. 'if you have any sense you will not do it' is all well and good, but what if you are chasing a large contract and access from flat roofs is included? Are you supposed to tell them that yes you are H&S compliant, with certification and everything, but you cant clean some of their windows as the H&S course you attended didn't cover it?

I'll tell you now it won't wash with any facilities management company in the country, it just wont.

A window cleaning specific safety training course which does not cover this issue is adding to the problem.

 if chasing a large contract the cleaning from flat roofs should be covered on your risk and method statements, so you will have to state how you intend to gain access to the roof safely and then how you intend to work safely from the roof area, if there are fixed ladders for access to roofs you can state how these will be used, if no fixed ladders you may state ladder for access to be tied and ensure it is extended at least one metre above access and egress point, it is always worth stateing on your method statement that if this means of access is not acceptable then the company would need to provide a fixed means for you to gain access.
   when you survey to price work check whether there are any fixed line anchorage systems on the roof areas if there is then explain how you intend to use these with your harness and lanyard, if there are no points for anchorage you may sugest taping areas at least 2 metres away from the edge and only working within this area, or you may suggest putting in place temporary edge protection are plastic barriers 2 metres from edge, you could ring them up before finalising the assessments and ask which method they would prefer you implement and explain the difference in costs for each method.
  i have found in the past that what is worse is when you put in all risk assessment etc win the contract and then when you start they decide they want it doing to another method than what you have priced for but dont want to pay any extra for costs incurred

[home6442]

I use a multi pupose ladder to get onto a flat or sloping roof.
In the L shape position it cant slip and you have something to grip
before reaching the roof edge.
Tried to put the link on here but it didnt work so
check out   Multi purpose ladder 2   on youtube.

[Dave Willis]

Probably not good enough for hse though.

[home6442]

Probably not good enough for hse though.
Would agree I only use it on domestic cleans.

[Dave Willis]

Mark

Why would we lock it,

Have you seen me lock any difficult questions to Andrew ?

Have you seen me lock any which are just goading Andrew, when really I would have every right too ?


I dont know where you get your ideas, I really don't   

Maybe Tosh locked them because they had run there course

Dave, I don't know who locked the posts and don't care but it is bloody annoying to say the least. Impact stirred up a hornets nest along with Window Washers then refused to answer questions to clarify their posts. They know what they are doing, trying to whip up interest in their business. They should be prepared to answer to their statements not goad us into going on their course.
 

[Moderator David@stives]

Mark

It is annoying for me , Andrew was answering posts as he got around to them.

I honestly think it was good PR for Impact, All publicity is good publicity.

[Dave Willis]

Are there more companies offering the same service?

If you don't use the forums then I guess there would be thousands out there who aren't aware they are doing anything wrong anyway.

[firefly123]

common sense will tell you if its safe to access  a flat roof i e is it blown wet will i slip is it windy take things into consideration and use common sense

[formb]

I am fully aware of the correct procedure for cleaning from flat roofs. Our training, method statements and risk assessments address the issue as they should.

Our training came from a 'competent' person who had nothing to do with the industry but is well trained in all things health and safety. We discussed all the risks and safety issues that arise and he helped us with training procedures, method statements, risk assessments, etc, etc.

My point is there are window cleaning specific safety training companies who are telling us cleaning windows from a flat roof has inherent risks, but offer no solution other than don't clean the window. What if other industries took this attitude. Do electricians only work to head height as any higher is unnecessarily risky? No they receive training to ensure that correct procedures are followed and the work is carried out safely.

I am sad to see that Andrew Willis has terminated his CIU account and I hope he returns. I understand peoples frustrations with health and safety and if I were still working alone I may have the same attitude towards it. What I don't understand is why people find the need to attack him for offering free advice on the issue, and I hope he does not think that is what I am doing. I, for one, value his opinion.

[formb]

SS.  Would you be prepared to share your procedures for flat roof work on here - or would you regard this as being your own intellectual property?  No problem either way.  The subject does interest me.

My method statements and risk assessments cost me a small fortune. I am not really willing to share, call me tight but hey I am Scottish.

There are some really good ones out there though a quick Google search got me:

http://www.purecleanltd.com/ra/Pure%20Clean%20-%20Risk%20Assessment%20and%20Method%20Statement%20(Window%20Cleaning%20).pdf