[Lee Burbidge]

Peninsula is the UK’s largest employment law and Health & Safety expert.
The Window Cleaning Magazine has partnered with Peninsula for help in these areas should you require it as a WCM member.
You will find them on our website at www.windowcleaningmagazine.co.uk
In addition to this, Peninsula will be writing for WCM.

So, if you have any employment or H&S question email me at lee@windowcleaningmagazine.co.uk

First article coming soon covers TUPE : Transfer of Undertakings Regs and how they effect your window cleaning business…

And this question gets answered:

….”A lot of my work is residential window cleaning. Because it is residential, bad weather can play a huge part in forcing an unscheduled day off.

When I don’t window clean, the money does not come in.

My business has grown to the extent of needing to employ help.
I can’t afford to pay for a worker when it is bad weather, how do I stand?

Also, with regards to holiday entitlement how do I make it fair to the employee and fair to me when it comes to working out the entitlement?

The hours are different every day and some days we do not work due to bad weather? In other job markets you have a set working time, 9 to 5 ( for example) and therefore making it easy to work out holiday entitlements”.

Do you have a question to ask Peninsula?
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[Tom White]

Can we have a definitive on the use of ladders for window cleaning?

[Lee Burbidge]

Can we have a definitive on the use of ladders for window cleaning?

How do you mean Tosh me old flower? Ladders are not banned.... is that what you mean?

[Tom White]

Can we have a definitive on the use of ladders for window cleaning?

How do you mean Tosh me old flower? Ladders are not banned.... is that what you mean?

Yeh, we all know they're not banned, and I'm pretty sure I know when to use them and more importantly, when we shouldn't be using them.

But lets have a definitive clear cut answer in accordance with HAHD.  Can we use ladders for routine window cleaning tasks if we haven't got a WFP system?

[Lee Burbidge]

Can we have a definitive on the use of ladders for window cleaning?

How do you mean Tosh me old flower? Ladders are not banned.... is that what you mean?

Yeh, we all know they're not banned, and I'm pretty sure I know when to use them and more importantly, when we shouldn't be using them.

But lets have a definitive clear cut answer in accordance with HAHD.  Can we use ladders for routine window cleaning tasks if we haven't got a WFP system?

Theres no law saying you can't of course... but it is up to you to risk assess the safest way to clean windows. Sometimes the clarity isn't there and is more about interpretation.... which sucks.

[Tom White]

Can we have a definitive on the use of ladders for window cleaning?

How do you mean Tosh me old flower? Ladders are not banned.... is that what you mean?

Yeh, we all know they're not banned, and I'm pretty sure I know when to use them and more importantly, when we shouldn't be using them.

But lets have a definitive clear cut answer in accordance with HAHD.  Can we use ladders for routine window cleaning tasks if we haven't got a WFP system?

Theres no law saying you can't of course... but it is up to you to risk assess the safest way to clean windows. Sometimes the clarity isn't there and is more about interpretation.... which sucks.

There is a law (WAHD) which restricts working at height when it's reasonably practical not to have to do so; which will mean ladders are restricted in their use.  I get the impression you're uncertain of what the WAHD says also.  

[Moderator David@stives]

Quote from Mr Ian Greenwood, head of HSE, on Newsnight programme

"Cleaning windows from a ladder is allowed, where it is sensible and safe to do so and all other means have been considered"

[Tom White]

Quote from Mr Ian Greenwood, head of HSE, on Newsnight programme

"Cleaning windows from a ladder is allowed, where it is sensible and safe to do so and all other means have been considered"

Yes, exactly; let's consider two scenarios:

1.  Window above a large flat roof.

2.  Normal type of easy access 1st floor window; nice PVC frames - just a standard window.

According to the WAHD, if there is a reasonably practical method to work from the ground, that's how it should be done.  So in scenario 1, a ladder could be used since there's no reasonably practical method to clean it from the ground so ladders are ok (in accordance with Schedule 6 (top and bottom of ladder needs to be secured)), but in scenario 2, it is reasonably practical to clean this window from the ground using a WFP system; therefore after consideration it would be against the WAHD to clean this window by working at height.

So yes, cleaning windows from a ladder is allowed, where it is sensible and safe to do so and ALL OTHER MEANS HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED.  This is what the directive says.  It then goes onto explain how ladders should be used, and even this method rules out ladders as an efficient method of cleaning windows since they have to be secured top and bottom.  Not how I used to use them; just lean them up and run up them.

In essence, ladders are NOT BANNED - but their use is severely restricted.

Lee, can you please get clarification from your guru please.

Cheers.

[Lee Burbidge]

Can we have a definitive on the use of ladders for window cleaning?

How do you mean Tosh me old flower? Ladders are not banned.... is that what you mean?

Yeh, we all know they're not banned, and I'm pretty sure I know when to use them and more importantly, when we shouldn't be using them.

But lets have a definitive clear cut answer in accordance with HAHD.  Can we use ladders for routine window cleaning tasks if we haven't got a WFP system?

Theres no law saying you can't of course... but it is up to you to risk assess the safest way to clean windows. Sometimes the clarity isn't there and is more about interpretation.... which sucks.

There is a law (WAHD) which restricts working at height when it's reasonably practical not to have to do so; which will mean ladders are restricted in their use.  I get the impression you're uncertain of what the WAHD says also.  

It isnt totally clear and indeed open to confusion. I am two thirds the way through a window cleaning course on all this with 3 of my lads....

[Lee Burbidge]

Quote from Mr Ian Greenwood, head of HSE, on Newsnight programme

"Cleaning windows from a ladder is allowed, where it is sensible and safe to do so and all other means have been considered"

Yes, exactly; let's consider two scenarios:

1.  Window above a large flat roof.

2.  Normal type of easy access 1st floor window; nice PVC frames - just a standard window.

According to the WAHD, if there is a reasonably practical method to work from the ground, that's how it should be done.  So in scenario 1, a ladder could be used since there's no reasonably practical method to clean it from the ground so ladders are ok (in accordance with Schedule 6 (top and bottom of ladder needs to be secured)), but in scenario 2, it is reasonably practical to clean this window from the ground using a WFP system; therefore after consideration it would be against the WAHD to clean this window by working at height.

So yes, cleaning windows from a ladder is allowed, where it is sensible and safe to do so and ALL OTHER MEANS HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED.  This is what the directive says.  It then goes onto explain how ladders should be used, and even this method rules out ladders as an efficient method of cleaning windows since they have to be secured top and bottom.  Not how I used to use them; just lean them up and run up them.

In essence, ladders are NOT BANNED - but their use is severely restricted.

Lee, can you please get clarification from your guru please.

Cheers.

No probs... will egt back to you....

[Tom White]

It isnt totally clear and indeed open to confusion.

Employer also = sole trader!

What's open to confusion about this paragraph?

(2) Every employer shall ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely otherwise than at height.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/regulation/6/made

And this effectively rules out ladders as an efficient method for cleaning windows:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/schedule/6/made

5.  A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by—

(a)securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends;
(b)an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or
(c)any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness.

I really don't understand the confusion or what's 'open to interpretation'.  The regulation is codified common sense.  If a job can be done from the ground, with no big hassle, then that's how it should be done.  If ladders should be used - because it's not reasonably practical to do the job from the ground - they should be secured at both ends or an anti-slip device; or a brick wall (for example).

Working with ladders in accordance with schedule 6 will really slow any trad window cleaner down making working this way highly inefficient.

But I will look forward to read what your friend makes of it.