[GB Window Cleaning]

vin... check this out mate a couple of interesting things about additives .........


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_hypochlorite

[Splash 4 Cash]

Answer for above. Liked the tread above but remember if you bought it over the counter at a pool shop it would contain copper which would my it slow release,it will take longer to de-solve.   

[Moderator David@stives]

Is this post a wind up ?

Talk about urban myths

Ionics have done a lot of research on this, I would check what they have to say

[Perfect Windows]

Is this post a wind up ?

Talk about urban myths

Ionics have done a lot of research on this, I would check what they have to say

"Urban myth"?  In what way?  (one definiton of an urban myth: A story, generally untrue but sometimes one that is merely exaggerated or sensational, that gains the status of folklore by continual retelling. Such stories, which may be old and cliché-ridden, are often given a degree of plausibility by being updated in a contemporary setting, or by the teller's claims of personal involvement.)

We're creating aerosol sprays of water that may be stored in a tank above 20 deg for some time.  That's a potential problem.

Can't see anything by ionics despite my best Googling efforts; not even on a site search. ( http://tinyurl.com/cyou3ua )

FWC seem to think it might be worth taking it into account: http://i.thelocalpeople.co.uk/business/zone98/subzone1/14437793/docs/3866.pdf


Vin

[Spruce]

Didn't someone once suggest on here that the Legionnaires scare with WFP was originally started by the ladder manufacturers who were worried about lose of business?

[Moderator David@stives]

The water in out tanks fluctuates and rarely rises above tap temperature, so the risks are not even worrying about, unless you store your van with a tank of water in a temperature controlled environment for a couple of weeks at 37 degrees, in reality we fill up with water a little above freezing point, and it doesnt rise by no more than 5 degrees max before we fill up again with cold water.

The FWC used copy and paste from a certain manufacturers course, that statement was probably born from a gentle persuasion for us to change "Filters" more often by said manufacturer.



The risks of using hypochlorite far outway the risk of catching Legionella

[Window Washers]

The water in out tanks fluctuates and rarely rises above tap temperature, so the risks are not even worrying about, unless you store your van with a tank of water in a temperature controlled environment for a couple of weeks at 37 degrees, in reality we fill up with water a little above freezing point, and it doesnt rise by no more than 5 degrees max before we fill up again with cold water.

The FWC used copy and paste from a certain manufacturers course, that statement was probably born from a gentle persuasion for us to change "Filters" more often by said manufacturer.



The risks of using hypochlorite far outway the risk of catching Legionella

The comment I have put in bold above is a stupid comment to make Dave, more so that your a moderator. Legionella Kills people do you not watch the news ?
If there is a risk and there is, it is defo worth worrying about and preventing it do you not think ?

Our tank water in the summer months cold is not 5 degrees sat in the van (you may want to test that with a temp gage to show yourself that your wrong there mate.

Anyone that uses a static will be a lot higher than that.

The problem I see with this is the hot water some people use and cycle it back to the tank, this is a real risk

[GB Window Cleaning]

The water in out tanks fluctuates and rarely rises above tap temperature, so the risks are not even worrying about, unless you store your van with a tank of water in a temperature controlled environment for a couple of weeks at 37 degrees, in reality we fill up with water a little above freezing point, and it doesnt rise by no more than 5 degrees max before we fill up again with cold water.

The FWC used copy and paste from a certain manufacturers course, that statement was probably born from a gentle persuasion for us to change "Filters" more often by said manufacturer.



The risks of using hypochlorite far outway the risk of catching Legionella

Hmmmm interesting david. the thing is i would say the water im filling up with at the moment is defo well above freezing point (around 17c) thanks

[dazmond]

its not something i worry about myself as i use a cold system and water is changed every day when working.leaving the van for a couple of days in hot weather with a full tank?i dont think so as ill be out working!!

how long does the water have to be at a certain temperature before legionnaires starts growing?and if the water temperature drops overnight does this kill the bacteria?if so us with cold systems have nothing to worry about.i wouldnt be so sure with a hot system though.although i have no plans to go hot.

also is it stagnant water at a certain temperature for weeks on end that could be a breeding ground for it?if so again it wont be a problem for us as temperature will always fluctuate and water ends up getting sloshed about even though i have a baffled tank.

its probably nothing to worry about although i think ill read up on it.


regards


dazmond

[Moderator David@stives]

Hi

Got my Maths a bit wring, cant be exact, but from what i remember, the tap range is about 5 -15 depending how deep your mains pipe is,

Water is a poor thermal conductor, so it's hard to see that water stored in your tank will rise to the danger levels needed for legionella to grow,IMO  our water is never stagnant for long enough,

We are no at different than people with header tanks in the loft, or people who collect rain water in water butts in there garden.

I for one will not be worrying about something where there are no recorded cases of a window cleaner contracting legionella,

[Window Washers]

Hi

Got my Maths a bit wring, cant be exact, but from what i remember, the tap range is about 5 -15 depending how deep your mains pipe is,

Water is a poor thermal conductor, so it's hard to see that water stored in your tank will rise to the danger levels needed for legionella to grow,IMO  our water is never stagnant for long enough,

We are no at different than people with header tanks in the loft, or people who collect rain water in water butts in there garden.

I for one will not be worrying about something where there are no recorded cases of a window cleaner contracting legionella,

we are different from them David we run a business that carries water and many using hot water, and many using an emersion heater, have you had a bump on the head, I put you last post down to being a saturday night with football on so maybe you had a few beers.

no recorded cases of a window cleaner contracting legionella

Thats a good thing! and I for one would not want to be the first.

it is better to be safe than sorry is it not ?

Air con units we all take for granted and they are a main problem, this is more aimed at people using hot water than cold, could you imagine if one of your guys (god forbid) the HSE says "Mr Morris what did you do to prevent this from happening?", your reply "I did'nt worry about it". Can see that standing up have a valid acceptable answer.

You clearly cannot remember much about this as you have already said, maybe you should just have a read up to refresh yourself .

I personally don't use hot water, but I would prefer to be armed with the knowledge than not worry and risk others health.

And as a moderator should you not lead by example ?

Now I am not saying that everyone is in danger, but if there is a risk, that risk should be looked into to prevent it, don't you agree?

Ian
P.s woke with a head ache so little grumpy this morning

[Moderator David@stives]

So with these hot systems, is water at a constant sufficient temp and stagnent enough to encourage bacteria ?

If there was a problem, wouldn't we see suppliers jumping on the band wagon or the government identifying us as a risk group, as I'm the case of these aqueous tunnels

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/sectors/manuf/03-09-06.htm

[Window Washers]

So with these hot systems, is water at a constant sufficient temp and stagnent enough to encourage bacteria.

If there was a problem, wouldn't we we suppliers jumping on the band wagon or the government identifying us as a risk group, as I'm the case of these aqueous tunnels

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/sectors/manuf/03-09-06.htm

for many using emusion heaters, what do you think ? also the ones feeding back to the tank the hot water. we use sprays of water do we not.

we at the moment are flying under the radar, you can tell this by the insurance companies, some of the vans I have seen in the past month are hazards waiting to happen, I just hope this is not one of them because if it does happen I guarentee it will affect a lot of business using wfp systems yours included and is sure to hit the news.
One of the benifits of using Cold Water 

[Moderator David@stives]

Please explain in your first statement how quickly the legionella will grow and how it will happen,

The way I see it after an 8 hour shift the system will be shut off and ultimately the system will then cool, also the system wouldnt be stagnant if in use.

The "spray" term mainly refers to "aerosol" as opposes to being jetted out of a small bore hose

As for being under the radar, I don't think so, the hse are pretty much spot on, they even stopped pat testing there own electrical equipment due to the risk being so minuscule.

[Perfect Windows]

Hi

Got my Maths a bit wring, cant be exact, but from what i remember, the tap range is about 5 -15 depending how deep your mains pipe is,

Water is a poor thermal conductor, so it's hard to see that water stored in your tank will rise to the danger levels needed for legionella to grow,IMO  our water is never stagnant for long enough,

We are no at different than people with header tanks in the loft, or people who collect rain water in water butts in there garden.

I for one will not be worrying about something where there are no recorded cases of a window cleaner contracting legionella,

It's rarely I disagree with you Dave, but we are different form people with a header tank in their loft; we're producing an aerosol of water at height around the homes of (very often) elderly people.

I'll have a check of the temp of water in my tank after a Thursday evening fill and the van spending a couple of days in the sun over the weekend (The timings aren't too uncommon for me, even if the sun is at the mo).

Vin

[Window Washers]

Please explain in your first statement how quickly the legionella will grow and how it will happen,

The way I see it after an 8 hour shift the system will be shut off and ultimately the system will then cool, also the system wouldnt be stagnant if in use.

The "spray" term mainly refers to "aerosol" as opposes to being jetted out of a small bore hose

As for being under the radar, I don't think so, the hse are pretty much spot on, they even stopped pat testing there own electrical equipment due to the risk being so minuscule.

I found a pdf from wras for you all to read: http://www.wras.co.uk/PDF_Files/Preheated_Water_Report.pdf

Dave the part where you say we don't use aerosol, we break the surfuce of water into a spray (aerosol type) if you have not seen this before look up when it is coming off the window or stand back and watch one of your guys cleaning and you will see a mist (airborne water, which is where legionnaires will be, should it be present)

Without blowing this well out of proportion, it is a risk and should be looked at as such.

this post is mostly aimed at hot water users, but we all should be aware of risks we could/can face.

Sorry for the delay I was cutting the grass 

[GB Window Cleaning]

Wow this has got really interesting! keep it up lads!  im glad i started this topic now! even if i turn out to be completly wrong i still feel im doing the best thing by raising this issue!

infact i hope i am wrong! and there is no concern!

george

[Rob_Mac]

We have just finished a very heavy weekend of drain jetting, in heavy rain, a very very wet environment with most kinds of water in the surrounding environment & airborne.

Both of us came away from the works on Monday morning with a heavy cough and a rough chest.

I have since revised method statements to include airborne water particles and the inhalation of the said water and am doing ongoing research into the problems caused by our constant work environment. I have some concerns to the point that we may start using mouth & nose coverings (of some description).

Because of the nature of my work/s I am more concerned with Weils disease but the principles are the same, inhalation of water droplets.

The lining of the lungs can and does cope with some water but not at high saturations and the end result can and has killed people. I have seen all the things on inhaling vapours and E-cigs for pleasure & medicinal purposes and as I have said this is ongoing

I know I felt bad on Monday morning and it took a few days for the symptoms to wear off. This was enough for the revisions in my work practises.

I don't want to get into the argument about Legionella but I am a little more cautious than most and if I was using it every day I would be looking at a regular disinfectant programme.

In my works we are surrounded by saturated air, all day everyday - I would say to some degree so is WFP window cleaning but to a much lesser degree and you are not as on top of it as we are.

My method statements and risk assessments and my decisions to include certain criteria or not are for my piece of mind and hopefully show the client that I am doing all I can to minimise any risk.

Just because someone tells you it is ok that doesn't necessarily make it correct, make your own judgement and go from there.

The reality is that a defence of someone on a public forum told me it would be ok may not stand up in court.

Good luck

Rob

[Window Washers]

Wow this has got really interesting! keep it up lads!  im glad i started this topic now! even if i turn out to be completly wrong i still feel im doing the best thing by raising this issue!

infact i hope i am wrong! and there is no concern!

george

I am glad you raised this subject nice one  , it shows you think also great for everyone that never thought about it before, and also help people brush up on details.

Any other posts like your thinking about ?t start up new threads on each very interesting to read 

[mikeyfaerosyth]

mind and always use screenwash in your vans resivoir,kills 99 or 100% bacteria.