[Lee Burbidge]

There was a lot of interesting stuff coming out in the topic I opened on crash testing. I have MIRA waiting to take your questions on crash testing. What do you want to ask, this is your chance to check your safety

[Window Washers]

There was a lot of interesting stuff coming out in the topic I opened on crash testing. I have MIRA waiting to take your questions on crash testing. What do you want to ask, this is your chance to check your safety

I would like to know how safe we are at 60 mph should we crash.

Also Are ratchet straps safe to carry our loads of water.

[Lee Burbidge]

There was a lot of interesting stuff coming out in the topic I opened on crash testing. I have MIRA waiting to take your questions on crash testing. What do you want to ask, this is your chance to check your safety

I would like to know how safe we are at 60 mph should we crash.

Also Are ratchet straps safe to carry our loads of water.

Thank you Window Washer, I will put that question to MIRA

[colin purewater]

Yes 5 ton ratchet straps I'm interested in what speed will they be good enough with
A quarter to half a ton of water behind you please lee

[Dave Willis]

How safe do you think you would be in a 60mph crash with no tank at all?

[Window Washers]

How safe do you think you would be in a 60mph crash with no tank at all?

I am still here typying thank god, I had a head on at 60 mph with no warning what so ever. I also had 2 years of physio and pain killers and a knackered back for the trouble ( the air bags didnt go off either ), I love the way your trying to rubbish an honest question are you becoming a troll ?

[mister bit]

I am waiting to hear this answer because my set up is 450 litres and ratchet straps at four points.

also on a tank which way should the baffles go mine go front to back ... is this best?

[Dave Willis]

How safe do you think you would be in a 60mph crash with no tank at all?

I am still here typying thank god, I had a head on at 60 mph with no warning what so ever. I also had 2 years of physio and pain killers and a knackered back for the trouble ( the air bags didnt go off either ), I love the way your trying to rubbish an honest question are you becoming a troll ?

Mira do their test from 30mph to a dead stop, and I mean a dead stop. I think it's asking a lot to expect six hundred litres or more to not move at that 60mph speed. The van alone is most likely to be pretty much destroyed at that speed and a dead stop.
Ask Mira - that's what the question is all about.
I'm not rubbishing the question I'm asking a question. Unfortunately some have trouble reading still.
Phone me and I'll see if I can sort your problem out Dude.


As far as I can make out crash tests on empty vans are performed at around 30 mph to get the safety ratings. If that is the case then tests at double that speed would most likely be catastrophic maybe Mira have tested vans at those kind of speeds?

[Dave Willis]

I would also like to know what kind of forces the bog standard metal bulkheads are expected to withstand? What kind of force are the supplied lashing eyes rated to and if they aren't rated at all then why not?

The lashing eyes in my Citroen were like noodles stuck to the wheel arches. The ones in my Toyota are beefier but don't look as if they would take much to break them.

What is the biggest force - the back of the tank lifting or the whole tank sliding? Would it help if the tank was designed to rupture on impact? Why should I be penalised by insurance companies for preventing my tank moving? Have Brodex actually done a real crash test? Which is safest - Gardiners, Ionics or Brodex? How safe would the Pure Freedom set up be? Is a full tank actually safer than half a tank? Upright or flat - would either make a lot of difference? Against the bulkhead or not?
Is Mira the same as Thatchem?

[EandM]

Up until the 1990's and the introduction of seat belt tensioners, airbags, side reinforcement  bars etc if you were travelling in a car at 30 mph and crashed headlong into a tree you would most likely be dead - as several of my friends proved. Safety has become an obsession and rightly so. Vans have progressed massively in this time in terms of safety but nothing is inherently safe.

[Lee Burbidge]

Yes 5 ton ratchet straps I'm interested in what speed will they be good enough with
A quarter to half a ton of water behind you please lee

Ok Colin.

[Lee Burbidge]

How safe do you think you would be in a 60mph crash with no tank at all?

I guess that would be down to the safety system of the vehicle.

[Lee Burbidge]

I am waiting to hear this answer because my set up is 450 litres and ratchet straps at four points.

also on a tank which way should the baffles go mine go front to back ... is this best?

I will raise the question

[Lee Burbidge]

I would also like to know what kind of forces the bog standard metal bulkheads are expected to withstand? What kind of force are the supplied lashing eyes rated to and if they aren't rated at all then why not?

The lashing eyes in my Citroen were like noodles stuck to the wheel arches. The ones in my Toyota are beefier but don't look as if they would take much to break them.

What is the biggest force - the back of the tank lifting or the whole tank sliding? Would it help if the tank was designed to rupture on impact? Why should I be penalised by insurance companies for preventing my tank moving? Have Brodex actually done a real crash test? Which is safest - Gardiners, Ionics or Brodex? How safe would the Pure Freedom set up be? Is a full tank actually safer than half a tank? Upright or flat - would either make a lot of difference? Against the bulkhead or not?
Is Mira the same as Thatchem?

Thank you Mark. I have all that down.

[Lee Burbidge]

Up until the 1990's and the introduction of seat belt tensioners, airbags, side reinforcement  bars etc if you were travelling in a car at 30 mph and crashed headlong into a tree you would most likely be dead - as several of my friends proved. Safety has become an obsession and rightly so. Vans have progressed massively in this time in terms of safety but nothing is inherently safe.

I agree

[Alex Gardiner]

I would also like to know what kind of forces the bog standard metal bulkheads are expected to withstand? What kind of force are the supplied lashing eyes rated to and if they aren't rated at all then why not?

The lashing eyes in my Citroen were like noodles stuck to the wheel arches. The ones in my Toyota are beefier but don't look as if they would take much to break them.

What is the biggest force - the back of the tank lifting or the whole tank sliding? Would it help if the tank was designed to rupture on impact? Why should I be penalised by insurance companies for preventing my tank moving? Have Brodex actually done a real crash test? Which is safest - Gardiners, Ionics or Brodex? How safe would the Pure Freedom set up be? Is a full tank actually safer than half a tank? Upright or flat - would either make a lot of difference? Against the bulkhead or not?
Is Mira the same as Thatchem?

In an ideal world all of these questions could very easily be answered if you were to take a van along to MIRA, pay the crash-test fee and and go crash testing! -  financially though it's better if a research facility doe this on our behalf.  I also would be interested to see if any research centre (MIRA and Thatcham included) has ever tested bulkheads or loading loops. In all of my dealings with MIRA during our crash-test process for the GrippaMax systems, I never heard them mention any van internal fixing data or crash testing.

I did learn a lot though about the force that is unleashed during a simulated dead-stop - it is fairly awesome and if you are standing nearby it can be quite scary. The main difference between the concrete block crash-test (such as Ionics used) and HyGe test sled that we used is that the concrete block test utilises the crumple energy absorbing zone on the front of the van. Whilst this looks and behaves very much like driving a van into a bridge support at 30mph it does allow the highly engineered van's crumple zone to start absorbing a lot of the energy from the impact before the tank restraints start to feel the strain. Using the HyGe sled means that the full force of the simulated 31mph impact is absorbed just by the tank restraint - there is no cushion to absorb some of the force involved. I believe that this is a tougher test of the strength of the restraint system.

In response to some of your other questions - In our testing we used a fully loaded tank as we believed that this would put the restraint under greater force and this is of course backed up by the mathematics of physics. We found that the two restraint issues were stopping the tank crushing in on itself and stopping the whole structure sliding forward along the floor. We stopped the first one with a redesign of the tank structure - lower is better and no fancy shapes just a tough rectangular box. The second took a little more time, but we got there in the end with a structure that had zero forward movement providing absolutely no penetration into the passenger zone. None of this is cheap though and the whole process of designing testing and bringing to market a crash-test system cost about £55,000 - we felt it was worth doing as others have also felt such as Ionics who started the whole process off.

[Dave Willis]

Thanks Alex, very informative (as usual). I wondered if a half full tank was worse than a full one because of the sloshing effect of all the water shifting but obviously the total weight must be the issue. I actually prefer the handling of my van when full because it becomes a bit unstable once the water can move about.
Many of us carry family in the front of the van at weekends and this is the biggest reason I went for a bolted in system plus I wanted an upright and I didn't think straps alone would hold it. At the time it would have made more sense for me to use Ionics as a) theirs is crash tested and b) they are just down the road from me but due to the way they come across on this forum I kind of have no interest in them. I went for Pure Freedom in the end which meant a ridiculous drive and a system that although seems very good has no proof it would stand up to a crash. The same for Concept20 too I would imagine.
There are several methods of securing tanks being supplied by other sources that make me cringe to be honest. I suppose one day some poor cleaner will get killed in an accident and then we will all wake up to the danger.

[Alex Gardiner]

Thanks Alex, very informative (as usual). I wondered if a half full tank was worse than a full one because of the sloshing effect of all the water shifting but obviously the total weight must be the issue. I actually prefer the handling of my van when full because it becomes a bit unstable once the water can move about.
Many of us carry family in the front of the van at weekends and this is the biggest reason I went for a bolted in system plus I wanted an upright and I didn't think straps alone would hold it. At the time it would have made more sense for me to use Ionics as a) theirs is crash tested and b) they are just down the road from me but due to the way they come across on this forum I kind of have no interest in them. I went for Pure Freedom in the end which meant a ridiculous drive and a system that although seems very good has no proof it would stand up to a crash. The same for Concept20 too I would imagine.
There are several methods of securing tanks being supplied by other sources that make me cringe to be honest. I suppose one day some poor cleaner will get killed in an accident and then we will all wake up to the danger.

We tested with a full tank because it put the maximum possible weight on the restraints, but in a non-baffled tank the slosh effect of a half full tank will put another strain on the system. However with our system's tanks (and I believe the Ionics' ones) they have a honeycomb baffling which reduces this effect to a minimum. Our tanks also have structural baffles which have helped to make the tank very, very strong however on their own they would not be enough to control the slosh.

We have designed our tanks (after initial crash tests) to be the flattest crash-tested moulded tanks available. An upright tank will want to 'fall forward' on a crash which would rip up the rear mountings. The other downside of an upright tank is that the centre of gravity of the van will be significantly raised which will affect handling and even fuel economy. If you have the choice (space-wise) go for a flat tank.

[Window Washers]

How safe do you think you would be in a 60mph crash with no tank at all?

I am still here typying thank god, I had a head on at 60 mph with no warning what so ever. I also had 2 years of physio and pain killers and a knackered back for the trouble ( the air bags didnt go off either ), I love the way your trying to rubbish an honest question are you becoming a troll ?

Mira do their test from 30mph to a dead stop, and I mean a dead stop. I think it's asking a lot to expect six hundred litres or more to not move at that 60mph speed. The van alone is most likely to be pretty much destroyed at that speed and a dead stop.
Ask Mira - that's what the question is all about.
I'm not rubbishing the question I'm asking a question. Unfortunately some have trouble reading still.
Phone me and I'll see if I can sort your problem out Dude.


As far as I can make out crash tests on empty vans are performed at around 30 mph to get the safety ratings. If that is the case then tests at double that speed would most likely be catastrophic maybe Mira have tested vans at those kind of speeds?

i cant call you as you hide behind a fake name  
the question I asked, I would like to know the answers to hence why I asked it, maybe you had a little trouble understanding my question.

[Perfect Windows]

Might be worth asking MIRA if a half-full tank will indeed "slosh".  My guess is that it wouldn't; I think accidents are too quick, e.g. 0.07 seconds (for evidence, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMl-WQ5XkMI from impact to stop = 0.07 seconds or so).

My intuition would say that in 0.07 seconds, there will be minimal sloshing during the deceleration phase.  I'd suspect the weight of water in the tank will behave like the same mass of bricks and just hurtle straight forward.  I may well be wrong, but could the guys at MIRA confirm or deny that?


Also, if a load strap is rated at 5T, does that mean you can hook a 5T weight straight onto it and it'll support it, or does it mean that if you gradually increase the weight to 5T it'll support it?  Have they done crash tests on loads of any kind supported by ratchet straps?  What were the results?

What impulse can a typical bulkhead withstand?

Do they have data on the distribution of accident speeds on UK roads (are 60mph accidents 1% or 50% of accidents)?

Vin