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shina

  • Posts: 249
If you with Veolia, check this out.
« on: April 07, 2012, 03:11:24 pm »
Copied and pasted from Veolias terms

Cleaning walls, windows or roofs of domestic premises using
a hosepipe

Definitions
The category of activity under the temporary water use ban powers is “cleaning walls, or
windows, of domestic premises using a hosepipe”.
The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010 defines this category as applying only to the
cleaning of the external walls, windows or roofs of domestic premises.
The definition excludes cleaning activities for health or safety reasons.
“Domestic premises” under this activity means:
a) a building used principally as a dwelling or dwellings;
b) a garage, shed, outbuilding or other building or structure used or enjoyed in connection
with a building used principally as a dwelling; or
c) a wall or other means of enclosure within the curtilage of a building used principally as a
dwelling.
Interpretation:
This relates to all domestic building structures, whether they are permanent or temporary.
Non-domestic roofs are not included in the ban, other than with respect to sky-light or similar
windows. Domestic roofs are specifically covered under the Water Use (Temporary Bans)
Order 2010 activity of ‘cleaning other artificial outdoor surfaces using a hosepipe’.
Messages
Customers may clean building walls and windows by hand, using a bucket.
If a building can be cleaned by permanent plumbing then it is still a permitted activity.
Storage tanks
Restrictions apply to water drawn from the mains supply after the statutory notice has been
given. So water drawn into a container prior to that date may be used for cleaning the
exterior of buildings.
Grey water and rainwater may be used to clean walls or windows.
Water fed poles are frequently used by window cleaners and are within the definition of
‘anything designed, adapted or used to serve the same purpose as a hosepipe’. These
systems use de-ionised water. Where mains water is the source used to create this deionised
water, this activity is restricted.
Exceptions
A statutory exception exists in The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010 for the cleaning
of domestic walls or windows in respect of health or safety. This includes:
a) removing or minimising any risk to human or animal health or safety; and
b) preventing or controlling the spread of causative agents of disease.
Any person whose business was in existence before 15 March 2012 and whose income is
solely dependant on this type of use for domestic or commercial purposes, then we will make
an exception until 23:59 on 4 July 2012. During this time we are requesting that businesses
ensure that at the end of this time period they can operate under the restrictions

So we are ok until 4 July 2012. Hope it rains at night and on weekends.

Window Washers

  • Posts: 9036
Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 03:26:26 pm »
A statutory exception exists in The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010 for the cleaning
of domestic walls or windows in respect of health or safety.

They may find there terms impossible to inforce due to the above.
If your not willing to learn, No one can help you, If you are determined to learn, No one can stop you ;)

Paul Coleman

Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 03:37:47 pm »
Copied and pasted from Veolias terms

Cleaning walls, windows or roofs of domestic premises using
a hosepipe

Definitions
The category of activity under the temporary water use ban powers is “cleaning walls, or
windows, of domestic premises using a hosepipe”.
The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010 defines this category as applying only to the
cleaning of the external walls, windows or roofs of domestic premises.
The definition excludes cleaning activities for health or safety reasons.
“Domestic premises” under this activity means:
a) a building used principally as a dwelling or dwellings;
b) a garage, shed, outbuilding or other building or structure used or enjoyed in connection
with a building used principally as a dwelling; or
c) a wall or other means of enclosure within the curtilage of a building used principally as a
dwelling.
Interpretation:
This relates to all domestic building structures, whether they are permanent or temporary.
Non-domestic roofs are not included in the ban, other than with respect to sky-light or similar
windows. Domestic roofs are specifically covered under the Water Use (Temporary Bans)
Order 2010 activity of ‘cleaning other artificial outdoor surfaces using a hosepipe’.
Messages
Customers may clean building walls and windows by hand, using a bucket.
If a building can be cleaned by permanent plumbing then it is still a permitted activity.
Storage tanks
Restrictions apply to water drawn from the mains supply after the statutory notice has been
given. So water drawn into a container prior to that date may be used for cleaning the
exterior of buildings.

Grey water and rainwater may be used to clean walls or windows.
Water fed poles are frequently used by window cleaners and are within the definition of
‘anything designed, adapted or used to serve the same purpose as a hosepipe’. These
systems use de-ionised water. Where mains water is the source used to create this deionised
water, this activity is restricted.
Exceptions
A statutory exception exists in The Water Use (Temporary Bans) Order 2010 for the cleaning
of domestic walls or windows in respect of health or safety. This includes:
a) removing or minimising any risk to human or animal health or safety; and
b) preventing or controlling the spread of causative agents of disease.
Any person whose business was in existence before 15 March 2012 and whose income is
solely dependant on this type of use for domestic or commercial purposes, then we will make
an exception until 23:59 on 4 July 2012. During this time we are requesting that businesses
ensure that at the end of this time period they can operate under the restrictions

So we are ok until 4 July 2012. Hope it rains at night and on weekends.


I believe the restriction on WFP has since been rescinded but look where I've highlighted.  Maybe I will end up buying a load of tanks and containers if that's to be common practice.  Will have to calculate how many IBCs will be needed for 6 months window cleaning.  Of course, perhaps they don't have a tool that can measure the age of water.  That highlighted bit makes a nonsense out of the whole thing.  Additionally, the water in my tank has been filtered after I have bathed in it, hasn't if m'lud?  (Should take the TDS up to a few million when allowing for toenails  ;D ).

M & C Window Cleaning

  • Posts: 1592
Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 04:04:17 pm »
I'm not supplied by Veolia, but I wonder how Window Cleaners like me are supposed to carry on.

I quite probably would not be able to work for long on a ladder again for health reasons alone. I have a fused left ankle resulting from an accident working at height in 2000, and a torn cartilage in my right knee resulting from it's being weakened from using a ladder daily for 30 years. Neither of these cause me too many problems working from the ground with Poles and pure water. However, I cannot use stairs or a ladder without experiencing considerable pain. I've been told by a consultant that an operation to fix the problem in my knee would carry a fair risk of making it worse.  I've worked as a window cleaner for 36 years and I enjoy it. Are W/Cleaners like me supposed to just give up and walk away from our customers. I have no problems being told I can't clean downstairs this way and I could probably almost half my water consumption by tradding all the downstairs I can reach without a pole. But a total ban on WFP?  I can't be the only W/Cleaner in this situation surely.

Paul Coleman

Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 04:19:52 pm »
I'm not supplied by Veolia, but I wonder how Window Cleaners like me are supposed to carry on.

I quite probably would not be able to work for long on a ladder again for health reasons alone. I have a fused left ankle resulting from an accident working at height in 2000, and a torn cartilage in my right knee resulting from it's being weakened from using a ladder daily for 30 years. Neither of these cause me too many problems working from the ground with Poles and pure water. However, I cannot use stairs or a ladder without experiencing considerable pain. I've been told by a consultant that an operation to fix the problem in my knee would carry a fair risk of making it worse.  I've worked as a window cleaner for 36 years and I enjoy it. Are W/Cleaners like me supposed to just give up and walk away from our customers. I have no problems being told I can't clean downstairs this way and I could probably almost half my water consumption by tradding all the downstairs I can reach without a pole. But a total ban on WFP?  I can't be the only W/Cleaner in this situation surely.

I concur, although my physical situation isn't as bad as yours.  I'm overweight, pretty unfit, and no youngster.  Going on ladders now could well halve my income and would definitely be a potential danger as I've grown unused to it so may end up killing me.  It would make some jobs impossible to do at all and some other jobs would need to have certain windows left.  I can trad some difficult windows with a pole but that's only a "better than nothing" option IMO and there would be some quality issues.
I am so angry about this that, if I end up being stopped from using WFP, I have had a fantasy about leaving my domestic taps running 24/7 and making sure I tell the water company.  My domestic water can't be metered as I'm in a flat with shared pipework.  The whole block would have to be disconnected to cut off my supply.  Now it is only fantasy so I would probably not do it but that is how strongly I feel about not investing in infrastructure to line the pockets of rich bar stewards.  Obviously my little bit makes no difference and it would only be a token "fingers up" to the water companies.
BTW.  My commercial water is paid for and metered away from home.

H S and Son

Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2012, 04:40:20 pm »
I'm not supplied by Veolia, but I wonder how Window Cleaners like me are supposed to carry on.

I quite probably would not be able to work for long on a ladder again for health reasons alone. I have a fused left ankle resulting from an accident working at height in 2000, and a torn cartilage in my right knee resulting from it's being weakened from using a ladder daily for 30 years. Neither of these cause me too many problems working from the ground with Poles and pure water. However, I cannot use stairs or a ladder without experiencing considerable pain. I've been told by a consultant that an operation to fix the problem in my knee would carry a fair risk of making it worse.  I've worked as a window cleaner for 36 years and I enjoy it. Are W/Cleaners like me supposed to just give up and walk away from our customers. I have no problems being told I can't clean downstairs this way and I could probably almost half my water consumption by tradding all the downstairs I can reach without a pole. But a total ban on WFP?  I can't be the only W/Cleaner in this situation surely.


I imagine if the situation deteriorates then through the course of negotiations with the water companies that the outcome will be due to H&S reasons (imposed on us effectively) that we will still be permitted to clean upstairs windows with WFP, but downstairs will have to be done trad. Perfectly acceptable in my eyes. The water companies will not be able to have restrictions which put our safety in danger whilst still allowing individuals to fill their ponds with the health of their fish-stock in mind.

Nick Wareham

  • Posts: 244
Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2012, 07:01:28 pm »
I say civil disobediance!

Keep fish safe yes, but window cleaners have to fall off ladders and die?  NO!

I think we should BLOCKADE VEOLIAs OFFICES

If they want to stop us working, we should stop them working too!

keyser soze

  • Posts: 1694
Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2012, 07:57:14 pm »
ban all wfp let every window in the country go dirty , would it be that much of a sacrifice for us to have drinking water...... thats the way they think.....many industrys have been lost for the greater good maybe its window cleaners turn to suffer

www.com

  • Posts: 101
Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2012, 08:16:58 pm »
You can still clean windows with a pole and squeegee. That is all that matters, all this health and safety rubbish wont wash. The argument will not stand up.

Cleaners that don't know how to squeegee will suffer.

Paul Coleman

Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2012, 08:24:44 pm »
I say civil disobediance!

Keep fish safe yes, but window cleaners have to fall off ladders and die?  NO!

I think we should BLOCKADE VEOLIAs OFFICES

If they want to stop us working, we should stop them working too!

I'm all for it.   I intend to start an online petition to re-nationalise water and invest in the infrastructure.  Won't make a jot of difference but imagine the trouble will be more tangible if many of us are idle.

Nick Wareham

  • Posts: 244
Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2012, 12:04:55 am »
Quote
You can still clean windows with a pole and squeegee. That is all that matters, all this health and safety rubbish wont wash. The argument will not stand up.

Cleaners that don't know how to squeegee will suffer.

I'd like to see you do that on a 65ft apartment.

www.com

  • Posts: 101
Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2012, 12:31:30 am »
Just use access equipment like everyone did 10 years ago. Not a problem.

Nick Wareham

  • Posts: 244
Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2012, 12:42:30 am »
Quote
Just use access equipment like everyone did 10 years ago. Not a problem.

So the cost of the job just went up a few hundred quid to pay for the access equipment hire, which probably wipes out any profit on it and renders it not worth doing.

That doesn't fit my idea of "not a problem"

The simple fact is that a large swathe of window cleaning has become totally dependent on WFP.  Simply saying "go back to using ladders" isnt an option.

It would be like telling all accountants to stop using computers and go back to pencil and paper.  It might sound possible in theory, but in practice the industry just isnt geared up for it, and doing so would be so costly it would make the work pointless.

shina

  • Posts: 249
Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2012, 09:09:35 am »
Is there a place outside the restricted areas where we can buy water from?

Would be interested to find out and then work out the costings, I could hire a van for the day and fill up all my containers (i have a trolley). If the price is right.

Anyone know the nearest place to the restricted borders?

Londoner

Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2012, 09:50:10 am »
From what I am starting to find the biggest problem might actually be the customers. Several have spoken to me about it and been very concerned. That was not a possibility I was expecting really. But its only early April and we have a hosepipe ban already, so how long (realistically) before it goes to a full blown drought order?

Also we have to consider how long they intend to leave these measures in place. In the past they have just let them run and run till the following winter.

Interestingly I was looking on a forum for mobile car valeters and many on there are saying just ignore it, carry on regardless.

p1w1

  • Posts: 3873
Re: If you with Veolia, check this out.
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2012, 12:39:32 pm »
From what I am starting to find the biggest problem might actually be the customers. Several have spoken to me about it and been very concerned. That was not a possibility I was expecting really. But its only early April and we have a hosepipe ban already, so how long (realistically) before it goes to a full blown drought order?

Also we have to consider how long they intend to leave these measures in place. In the past they have just let them run and run till the following winter.

Interestingly I was looking on a forum for mobile car valeters and many on there are saying just ignore it, carry on regardless.
exactly what i will be doing