[AuRavelling79]

Well I dunno - looking at safety stuff on the net it seems the most secure way is up against the bulkhead and fixed to the anchorage points (if rated high enough - but half tonne per point in modern vans I think and should be 3 x weight restrained so a 650L tank should be anchored at at least 4 anchor points).

Using ratchet straps they should be at as low an angle to the horizontal as poss - preferably at less than 60 degrees in which case they should be rated for twice the weight of the full tank.

Thoughts?



 

[SunShineCleaning]

If you could post a link to your findings that would help those who will say it should be bolted.
Otherwise you will be accused of not showing value for the gift of life.

Personally sounds reaonable to me.

[Frankybadboy]

its all about not having to much weight over your axles,


cause if you do then you know what will happen if you get pulled and told to get on a weigh bridge

more important me thinks

[AS Window Cleaning]

I'd be interested to see your findings too gold, I was unable to get definite facts myself.

I wouldn't trust these lashing points unless the tank was up against the bulkhead. tho from my experience, and obviously depending on van payload and how close you get to your max weight, up against the bulkhead tends to overload the front axle slightly, if you have an upright tank.

[Nathanael Jones]

NOT up against the bulkhead. In a smash the bulkhead is too fragile to provide any real protection, and even the best restraints may allow the tank to move a little.

Also,.. using the standard anchor points is not enough. The tank may only weigh 650kg, but in a crash this force can be multiplied by 40 to 50 "High G loads are common even at low speeds, which explains why child safety seats are so vital. For example, the dummies in the federally mandated 30 mph crash test routinely register 40 to 50 Gs. " Source: http://www.vcu.edu/cppweb/tstc/crashinvestigation/kinetic.html

You really need a restraint system that will hold 30 tonne or more,... and that's just for a 30mph crash!

[nokmond]

Utter balls

[dd]

100% agree with Nathaniel. Also if you have an upright tank against the bulkhead you will most likely overload the front axle so can be fined if caught.

[AuRavelling79]

Utter balls

I think you can become paranoid really in that if you believe that having an accident that will make your 400/650kg water tank kill you from behind you forget that it will prolly kill you with the immovable structure you hit or the 1.5 to 30 tonne car or wagon that hits you from the front.

While I don't agree with nokmonds way of giving his brutal comment - it is not fathomable to have 30 tonne ratings in a van that can only weigh less than two tonnes itself.

The websites I looked at are a mix for Aus and NZ regs; USA  and UK Health and safety for load securing. Google "Safety of loads on vehicles" and you'll find illustrations and ratings for different vans and lorries.

The guidelines seem to be that against the bulkhead (if factory fitted in a vehicle to "western standards") stops the intial movement and that the load against the bulkhead should be no more than half the vehicle payload - so in a 1000kg payload van then a 500kg load against the bulkhead is a maximum guideline - the point made is that it's better to make sure the load doesn't "let go" because if it does then the bulkhead will not stand the same force.

If you lash to anchorage points (the system is only as strong as its weakest point) they should be rated at 500kg per point in a vehicle up to 2 tonnes payload and there should be 6, 8, or 10 points depending on the length of the "bed".

It seems that a (say) 500kg load should have 3 times its weight in lashing points.

Also webbing straps are highly favoured but should be kept dry (as you can lose 15% strength), cut or fray free and free of corrosives as you can lose all the strength.

They should also be at low angles, preferably below 60 degrees from horizointal as the load they in turn put on the anchorages increases greatly if pulling upward then "along" - indeed at 60 degrees you "only" need a strap and anchors at twice the weight where as with the strap at 80 degrees (almost upright) you need ten times the weight due to the pull on the anchor point.

That last point is proven by the principle that if you had a nail into a piece of wood and pulled out at a low angle it would "never" come out without destroying the wood where as at a high angle it will pull out relatively easily.

You'll have to google various sites to find it all.

But .... to the "chassis mod" boys the recommends are you don't modify the vehicle without consulting the manufacturers.

All my untrained musings and talking to guys with engineering and welding "nouce" but no formal qualifications.

[Dave Willis]

Pretty much agree with Nat. Although i haven't a clue about the figures. If you search the net for loads on HGV's for instance you will see diagrams of the angles that ratchet straps need to be. With an upright 650l tank you'd need to be secured near the back door and beyond. Most lashing points in vans look less impressive than a normal seat belt mounting, some of the points (Citroen) are like spaghetti hoops welded to the wheel arches.

You could of course use a bit of plywood  and some batons glued to the floor.

[AS Window Cleaning]

You could of course use a bit of plywood  and some batons glued to the floor.

lol!

thanks for info gold, yes that's why if it's not bolted to chassis (and maybe even then) I prefer  up against the bulkhead. if, or rather, when the tie downs let go, the bulkhead will last better than a huge mass of the tank hitting it at speed.

[AuRavelling79]

Good point Mark - I found that too - the thing is when an accident causes forces to "pull" anchorage points out the van (as opposed to breaking flimsy D rings and underrated straps) the forces are colossal the impact itself is likely to kill you whether its the unsafe load from behind, the concrete pillar from the front or the wagon from the side.

We should focus on the tank and I think the scaremainering channelled properly is good but also serves to fill the pockets of certain scaremainers in the system building and insurance industry.

And don't forget - the tank should be baffled too which helps.

[dd]

Personally I think the upright 650l tanks are poor in that their shape makes them inherently unstable. The 500l tanks by contrast are more cube shaped  (if that makes sense) so have a lower centre of gravity and so are more stable.

Personally I am not a fan of lay flat tanks as it can be a pain to pump the water when the level gets low unless you park up on a kerb facing the right way.

If the 650l tanks were more cube shaped they would be easier to safely secure. An alternateive would be to have a tank custom built e.g www.plasticwatertanks.co.uk

[AS Window Cleaning]

also the shape of my van, and the fact that my tank is mounted on a platform means it physically cannot fit into the cab area. however this will all change when I get my 500 litre tank..... :S

in ref to dd comment there appear to be 2 sizes with 500 litre upright, a narrow but tall tank, and one that is more cubelike as you say. I paid more to get the cube one.

[Dave Willis]

Entirely up to you Mr Gold 

But.... I carry my wife and daughter in the front of my van on occasions and should the worst happen and the tank burst the bulkhead and I survived I'm not sure I'd feel great at the inquest when I tell them I bought some straps off ebay, didn't check the anchor point loadings and thought a couple of millimetres of metal was all I needed.

This industry is ramming the advantages of health and safety down customers throats and yet many of us are driving around in death traps.
Go on, spend the money you tight git and get it done properly.

[SunShineCleaning]

Entirely up to you Mr Gold 

But.... I carry my wife and daughter in the front of my van on occasions and should the worst happen and the tank burst the bulkhead and I survived I'm not sure I'd feel great at the inquest when I tell them I bought some straps off ebay, didn't check the anchor point loadings and thought a couple of millimetres of metal was all I needed.

This industry is ramming the advantages of health and safety down customers throats and yet many of us are driving around in death traps.
Go on, spend the money you tight git and get it done properly.

You could prove that point by showing us where these death traps have actually caused serious injury.

It is more likely that in such an accident the plastic tank would rupture and shed its load rather than come through a bulkhead.

[AuRavelling79]

Entirely up to you Mr Gold 

But.... I carry my wife and daughter in the front of my van on occasions and should the worst happen and the tank burst the bulkhead and I survived I'm not sure I'd feel great at the inquest when I tell them I bought some straps off ebay, didn't check the anchor point loadings and thought a couple of millimetres of metal was all I needed.

This industry is ramming the advantages of health and safety down customers throats and yet many of us are driving around in death traps.
Go on, spend the money you tight git and get it done properly.

What is "properly"?

Modifying the chassis without the manufacturer's "blessing"? - buying a tank fitting kit that hasn't got the same? Going to an engineering firm and still not getting the manufacturer's blessing?

If you buy from a system installer what guarantee do you get? I don't mean insurance compliant - I mean safety compliant.

As far as I can see safety regs indicate a load must be "secure" is there anything beyond this that I am missing?

I do have sympathy with sunshine's view - where are the accidents from these unsecured tanks in real life?

[SunShineCleaning]

Fact is those who have gone to the expense of factory fitting will justify there spending money.
Those who haven't will justify there way of securing.

I've asked several times for instances of accidents with tanks strapped but none have surfaced.

If I didn't know better Gold, I would say you raised the topic to start an argument! 

[AuRavelling79]

Fact is those who have gone to the expense of factory fitting will justify there spending money.
Those who haven't will justify there way of securing.

I've asked several times for instances of accidents with tanks strapped but none have surfaced.

If I didn't know better Gold, I would say you raised the topic to start an argument! 

Not at all! 

I'm about to fit a 650 layflat and am quite happy to do what is necessary - it ain't rocket science - just means getting a competent person to tell me what to do. I know guys who can weld and "do light engineering" - it's not the Clifton Suspension Bridge!!!!

[Dave Willis]

Sounds like your mind is made up.
Deathtraps - we've all seen them on here over the years: tanks with a metal band mounted in the wrong direction, 1000l ibc tanks with a bungy rope, loose 25ltr containers and no bulkhead at all. I'm not pushing any brand - I just had mine mounted as best as possible by an engineer - peace of mind knowing there is nothing more I can do apart from going to Ionics. Do what you like boys, makes no difference to me.

[Window Washers]

Fact is those who have gone to the expense of factory fitting will justify there spending money.
Those who haven't will justify there way of securing.

I've asked several times for instances of accidents with tanks strapped but none have surfaced.

If I didn't know better Gold, I would say you raised the topic to start an argument! 

why do they have to justify ?
some people scrimp on things I think thats a fact thats overlooked here.
I have had a factory fitted system, I designed 2 others and still I went done the road of having it fitted to van by coach builders at extra expense, I have done what I feel is within my relm to make my vans safe for me and for people driving it.
the question is has others ?

to your crashing theory I have not seen anyone crash with or without a factory fitted system, the crash tests that have been done are not real life crashes.

do you know anyone that's crashed with a strapped system, a factory fitted system, a system as mark etting said about have been shown on here, ibcs unsecured held back with a ply batten etc which is dangerous. ?