[Steve Weatherley]

Those of you who are using alkaline detergents in your tanks - do you.....

1. Go over the whole carpet again afterwards with an acid rinse
2. Use a sprayer to apply the acid rinse after cleaning
3. Dont bother and leave the carpet in an alkaline state.
4. Dont bother because the alkaline detergent is self neutralising.

If you answer number 4 what detergent do you use?

The reason I ask this question is because there are several high PH detergents in the marketplace and I cant believe that those who use them would select option 1.

by the way......happy and profitable new year to all

[Steve Weatherley]

39 of you have read but nobody has answered?

[Steve Weatherley]

So you are all using microsplitters then?

[Gavin Reardon]

Hi Steve

Yes I use Microspiltters not sure if you know but microspiltters are first Alkaline but dry neutral.

Hope this helps a little

Regards Gavin

[mark_lane]

HiSteve
 i use microsplitters with a acid rinse but the poll dosn't apply to me
                   cheers mark

[carpetclean]

hi steve
           in answer to your question i too use micro splitters but it is surely most important when cleaning with alkaline to neutralise with an acid rinse, you need to leave the carpet ever so slightly on the acid side otherwise the carpet will resoil as we all know. you couild sparay but then you are wetting the carpet again!! which is a negative . hope this is of use pete

[Derek]

I use a Woolsafe Microsplitting chemical (6.5 pH) with a plain water rinse...job done

Derek

[Steve Weatherley]

Thanks to those who answered

[Doug Holloway]

Steve,

This is what I call a can of worms question.

The reason not many have replied is that they will use a lot of different approaches depending on the carpet type / soiling etc.

Many will clean with an alkaline detergent in their tank and not rinse at all.This is fact from talking to CC's off the record.

Personally I have not found any difference in resoiling when using and not using an acid rinse.

It does depend more on the quality of the detergent used in the first place.

One of these days I will do some proper experiments of the various combinations and see what the real results are.

One of the major probs in the CC industry ( and many others)is that claims are made without any independant technical testing, which allows these claims to be perpetuated.

Cheers

Doug

[Graeme@Access]

Steve,

We have never used alkaline cleaning chems in the tank, in spite of the manufacturers recomendations.  We figured that going over a carpet more than once would not only waste time, but increase the chance of overwetting, wicking etc.  So with chemicals designed to be used in the tank, we decided to prespray them to see what kind of results we could obtain. 

For example, we have used crystal green presprayed over the entire area with Multi pro added to the traffic lanes.  Agitate and leave to dwell for 10-15 minutes before reagitation.  Rinse with an Fibre and fabric rinse and deodoriser in the tank.
The results have been great so far on all non wool carpets. We are testing other methods, but this one seems solid at the moment.

On wool, we have been using a couple of self neutralising chems (Ultimate Master or Fibresafe Gold) with only a water rinse(deodoriser added).  Again, we have been prespraying them, agitate.. etc.  The results on wool are decent to good and would be made better by adding a wool traffic lane cleaner to the appropriate areas (i think, but have not experimented yet).

The reason we have been doing it this way is two fold.
a) I have never been convinced that the chemicals get enough time to emulsify soil etc when they are used in the tank.  1-2 seconds between spray and extraction at best.  It might be hotter coming out of the tank, but 10-15minutes cold... vs 1-2 seconds hot.
b) I have never been happy about extracting the carpet more than once (wastes time and overwets) and would NEVER leave the carpet with a pH greater than 8. 

After doing some research into the components of most C&U cleaning agents, specifically the surfactants used in them, I can see no reason to proceed in this way. The only thing left on my wishlist is optical brighteners, but i think we have found a decent source of them.

Hope this helps

Graeme Thurston
Access Cleaning Solutions

Edit: forgot that we use deodoriser on wool also 

[Ian Gourlay]

When, I first started, I used to vac, Pre Spray, Aggitate with a brush for a long time.

Then used  detergents, then went over the carpet again with an acid rinse.


I thought this was a right game of solders and very time consuming and not helping in my quest for Fast Drying.


I then decided on mist Acid Spray and aggitate in  but to be honest could not believe that this was actually effective,


Then I read about Ultimate Master and have been using it ever since, was tempted by Micro Splitters but as I was reasonably happy with Ultimate Master I saw no reason to change.

I have never had complaints about resoiling.

[Steve Weatherley]

Graeme and Ian,

Thank you for your most informative answers.

Here's my story......

As an example I will use my method of cleaning for a synthetic carpet.....

1. Pre vac (honest!)
2. Pre spray with warm Ashbys Supreme Prespray (PH10.5 I think)
3. Agitate and leave to dwell for 5 mins
4. Rinse with Ashbys Supreme Powder in tank (PH11.5)
5. Mist over carpet with Supreme Finish (acid rinse PH3.5) using handheld sprayer

Always got the desired result and never got complaints from customers. However I recently did the NCCA course and the trainers / other cleaners were appalled. They said that by using such high alkilinity then only doing a fine mist of acid spray certainly did not neutralise the carpet.
Now, this is how I was trained to clean when I started out and did the Ashbys courses.
Since doing the NCCA course I have been putting the acid rinse (Fibre & Fabric Rinse or Ashbys Supreme Finish) in my tank and rinsing with it instead of the high alikaline detergent. Not really sure if the results are as good but I'm afraid that by leaving the carpet in such a high state of alkalinity it may resoil quicker and not feel so soft.

I conclude by asking a question to all  (especially the chemical manufacturers) .....If it is not good to leave carpet in a high state of alkalinity why are so many of the 'in tank'  detergents currently in the marketplace somewhere between PH9 and 12? This to me doesn't make sense.

[John Kelly]

This is a post of mine from some months ago along the same lines.

"Thinking about ph and the idea that some products dry ph neutral when the actual liquid form is ph 9 or 10 say.

PH can only be measured in a liquid form (or am I wrong) that means when a solution dries on a carpet with no moisture present no ph of any kind will be registered.
However The addition of water will reconstitute any residue that remains. What I am asking is does a product that is said to dry neutral PH, register neutral when the carpet is rewetted. Or does it register the original ph of the solution. This would be interesting to know"

[Steve Weatherley]

John

Paul Pearce from the NCCA carried out a simple test when we were discussing this. First he mixed a small amount of Ashbys Supreme Powder with some water. He then left it in a dish overnight. The following morning it had crystalised. However when a little more water was added to the crystals it gave a PH reading of 11. Therefore it had not neutralised.

[John Kelly]

Steve

That is what I am wondering. If ph can only be measured when a solution, then any liquid which dries out will then be in a neutral state.
Personally I think the less residue you leave in a carpet whether high or low ph the less re-soiling. Therefore the more you mess about with it using this and that the more chance of leaving something behind.

[Alan Brooker. Aqualink Carpet Care]

I've used the same method as Steve since doing my iicrc/ ncca. Nobody's mentioned thoroughly raking the carpet after misting an acid rinse on. I've tested the ph when dry and it sits around ph6 -7. If you've thoroughly extracted prior to misting on the acid then it doesn't appear to take very long to dry.

Steve, can't understand why you would use a higher ph wash than pre-spray? Surely it's better to work your way down the scale

[Ian Gourlay]

Steve,

I was taught the same method as you at Ashbys. Ie your first method.

However I think if I remember correctly Chis? did say you could use the Pre Spray and the Acid Rinse in the tank.

But when I was or use the same products as you I was not happy with the results by this method.  But that could be down to not aggitating enough.

That why I switched to Ultimate Master

I am again just trusting it Self neutrulises
 
This test that Paul did did he then apply Acid Rinse. To  The Supreme Powder.

Did he test other products such as Ultimate Master

[Mike Halliday]

at what piont would a high ph detergent that has dried neutral in the carpet become re-activated by moisture in the air?

if i cleaned a family bathroom would that carpet ever be completely dry?

this is the problem with leaving a high ph detergent on the carpet, its just sat thier waiting for some wetness.

mike

[Doug Holloway]

Steve,

You have started a good topic here.

pH is a measure of hydrogen ions  , so dry carpets have no pH .

This raises the question of whether the alkalinity of a cleaning chemical will affect resoiling when dry ,.

There is also the question of whether resoiling increases with alkalinity.

The answers to these questions are fundamental to this discussion but in all honesty I have never seen them.

There are so many competing training organisations, chemical suppliers etc that a very confused picture has emerged.

cheers

Doug