[J. Domingos]

Instead of a  leisure battery, I'm using a gel battery. They more expensive... but the results are amazing, and they last longer.

[matthewprice]

i have a leisure battery in one van lasts 4 days,other van lasts 10  plus days i was wondering if this one is a gel will have take it out and have a look.how long does yours last. 

[Spruce]

Hi Spruce I wish I could give a straight forward answer but here goes

To a point yes the voltage is measured at the controller while the system is under load (pump running) so with the current controller you will see a lower voltage at the control than measured at the battery

It a seems an illusive answer as to when the battery is considered discharged, I wonder if the manufacturers advise 11.8 and 11.9 to cover themselves as In our experience the battery will go lower than that and function well.

To answer the question how much is battery life shortened by continually running it low. There is no easy answer
Because it depends on so many factors EG water flow rate - efficiency of the pump and motor - running a controller or not and other factors.

It always strikes me that you have found the optimum setting for your own system and I was interested that you have checked the average pressure at the pump 55PSI. This allows you to run a system efficiently and get the best from your equipment.

The New board in the Analogue means the control can read very accurately the voltage at the battery meaning we can confidently lower the cut off point to 10.5V. with out damaging the battery. Also the feedback we get suggest cleaners on the ground want the cut off lower than 11v it is currently.


As for that elusive point where a battery recharging it will vary system to system and battery to battery.

Ian

Hi Ian

I need to update that 55 psi pressure reading sometime. After thinking about this I realised that I did that a while back when I used a shorter hose reel and the brushes had 3mm jets.

The problem I experienced was with Peter's trailer that I owned which he fitted with a bypass valve. I could never get the adjustment right and the battery would never last as the pump was running flat out. I also managed to get though all my water by about mid afternoon.

When we got the first Varistream when a pressure switch failed all I could think about is less flow and pressure would save water. I was trying to emulate Jeff Brimbles ability to clean with low minimal water. I worked like that for about 3 years with the varistream on those settings.

The hose reel is now minibore and the brush jets are now 2mm. I have again run that at a low flow and low pressure. It just of late that I have been persuaded that a higher flow rate means less rinsing time. I have to raise the water pressure in the winter but reduce it back down in the summer.

Spruce

[Ian Sheppard]

better to have a separate split charge relay so if the water controller breaks down/wears out and needs replacing you do not need to pay extra for one with relay charger built in.

Those controllers with the charge built in were no good IMO because you had to manually select and deselect it after every journey or every time you start the van. Seperate split charge relays are automatic.

The charger controller we offer has the relay built in and will only charge your leisure battery while the engine is running, There is no manual switching needed the controller does that automatically.

[Ian Sheppard]

Hi Spruce

You have hit the nail on the head. The original flow controllers were designed to slow the pump down as unregulated the pump will run flat out the whole time and run until the battery was dead.

Our thinking is that the flow rate should be set to the minimum needed for any particular job the slower the pump the lower the current draw and the longer a battery will last.
Accepted not everyone wants to work that way which is where it becomes difficult to know when a battery has discharged every system is slightly different.

Which is why controls now compared to 7 - 8 years ago have to be much more flexible and do more than just slow a pump.

Certainly electronic controls are not for everyone and another method is to use a manual water flow valve, How accurate and reliable this method is I would not know. Most of the system makers use an electronic controller of one type or another.

I would expect that if hose - fittings or jets are changed that this would have an impact on pressure and water flow and I would expect that changing something would increase or decrease the draw on the battery as well as effect water flow.

The controllers give flexibility in the way DE calibration is set up and as a general rule I would suggest that after a change to the system it is worth re calibrating the controller.

I agree with you that the Season (winter - summer) can have an effect on pressure and calibration, During the cold snap Jan - Feb I noticed more people reporting issues with Low Battery and reduced water flow.

We are beginning to realise that the cold has an impact - we think it is simple the fact the colder water will flow slower and the colder it gets the greater the effect.

So we see a cause and effect of the cold snap being......

-Water flows slower
-This effects pressure in the system
-Flow rate is turned up to compensate
-Battery current draw increases

The net result is that you use slightly more water than you would expect and the battery will not last as long.

We also feel that the cold weather highlights other weakness,s in a system EG loose connections - faulty wiring or restrictions and blockages in the hoses.
Also if the pump motor is not very efficient this again will increase current draw and reduce battery life. This is more likely to be apparent when the flow rate is turned up with the pump running faster.

The controller is sensitive to quite small changes in Voltage and a drop of milliseconds is enough to trigger the low bat warning.
The funny thing is as the controls become more and more reliable and provide protection across the system - the more weakness.s in the whole system become apparent.
In short we have moved a long way with the controls from the initial idea of just slowing the pump, and these advances mean we look at the system as a whole and how the controller can not just control water flow but also become a diagnostic and management tool.

[steven ainger]

Does the pump have to have a pressure switch with this new controller

[Spruce]

Does the pump have to have a pressure switch with this new controller

Interesting question, as the spec says that it would be used inconjunction with the pumps pressure switch for added protection.

Ian - please can you also tell us how you switch the contoller off?

Thanks

Spruce

[alanwilson]

Quick note, cold water has a higher viscosity and therefore has increased drag in the hose, hose will contract in cold conditions as well, reducing flow. Finally the chemical reactions taking place in a battery to create power slow down in the cold as well, reducing available a page from the battery.


Dr Wilson lol!

[J. Domingos]

My gel battery got 55amps. And my controller are designed to drain 30amps, got two. My battery last around 3/4days.
I'm thinking buy another one with 80/90amps soon, should last a full week.

[Spruce]

Quick note, cold water has a higher viscosity and therefore has increased drag in the hose, hose will contract in cold conditions as well, reducing flow. Finally the chemical reactions taking place in a battery to create power slow down in the cold as well, reducing available a page from the battery.


Dr Wilson lol!

Hi Dr Wilson. 

We know that as water gets colder it gets more dense which will become a solid when it freezes. We usually fail to consider the other important point you mentioned - that the battery becomes less efficient the colder it gets.

Cheers

Spruce

[alanwilson]

There's another factor.

Me.

Getting old!

[Ian Sheppard]

Does the pump have to have a pressure switch with this new controller

Interesting question, as the spec says that it would be used inconjunction with the pumps pressure switch for added protection.

Ian - please can you also tell us how you switch the contoller off?

Thanks

Spruce

Hi Spruce

The control will work with or without a pump pressure switch. the new controllers will not build excessive pressure in the system while in DE.
We recommend that the pump pressure switch is left in line as a last line of protection, The control is a step on from what we have produced before, the electronics are robust and have been field tested over a couple of months. That said nothing is 100% so in the event of a something unexpected the pump pressure switch is there to protect the system.

The controller is switched on/off using the left hand flow rate switch.

Cheers

Ian

[steven ainger]

Do these new analogue contollers have more contol over the pressure rising in the hose then the old analogue varistream.
The reason i ask this is, that i use hot water, and have the blue dial inside the old varistream, set to its lowest position, and when the flow is stopped it builds pressure for about 10 seconds or so before shutting off.
I would like a controller with more control, is this new one the answer ??

[steven ainger]

Do these new analogue contollers have more contol over the pressure rising in the hose then the old analogue varistream.
The reason i ask this is, that i use hot water, and have the blue dial inside the old varistream, set to its lowest position, and when the flow is stopped it builds pressure for about 10 seconds or so before shutting off.
I would like a controller with a lower shut off setting, is this new one the answer ??

[Spruce]

Do these new analogue contollers have more contol over the pressure rising in the hose then the old analogue varistream.
The reason i ask this is, that i use hot water, and have the blue dial inside the old varistream, set to its lowest position, and when the flow is stopped it builds pressure for about 10 seconds or so before shutting off.
I would like a controller with a lower shut off setting, is this new one the answer ??

Hi Steven
We have had those analogue controllers mess around. If you open the contoller again (sorry) and rotate the pot adjuster clockwise and anti clockwise about 20/30 times we found that this cleans the adjusters 'tracks' which appear to oxidise over time.
This was an old electronic tip that we were told about with 'slide' volume controls on radios.

It may help although we found that the pressure cutout reduced over time.

I have noticed the digital controller behaves differently depending in what hose we use. The original minibore hose we bought was from Cleantech and my son still uses it on his 100m hose reel. It is very firm and has very little flex. So  when using his hose the controller switches off virtually immediately after the tap is switched off. The problem with this hose is that you sometimes have to wait a few seconds until the controller starts the pump when you switch the tap back on.

The latest hose that I have on my hose reel is from Gardiners and it is a lot more flexible. So once the tap is switch off the same pump runs on for longer as the hose swells under the pressure and acts as a reservoir. The good thing about this hose is that there is never a time when you open the tap that you have to wait for the water at the brush head. Same pump, same Varistream, same connecting hose, same hose reel, same brush and connector - just different hose with two total different results.

If I'm experiencing this with cold water, then I have to imagine that hot will exacerbate this.

Spruce

[steven ainger]

Hi spruce,
Thanks for the tip,
I to have 2 different hoses, which react exactly how you describe, and yes with hot it is exaggerated

[traps7]

Can't you just recalibrate the de depending on weather and which hose you're using?

[thermoclean]

Does anybody sell a controller that doesnt stop working when the voltage is low
I use lithium polymer batteries in my trolleys they are nominally 12v so read at about
11.7 fully charged and can be run totally flat with no damage.

[Alex Gardiner]

Does anybody sell a controller that doesnt stop working when the voltage is low
I use lithium polymer batteries in my trolleys they are nominally 12v so read at about
11.7 fully charged and can be run totally flat with no damage.

Yes we have just received a batch that have a low battery display, but they do not switch the pump off. Drop me an email.

[Ian Sheppard]

Do these new analogue contollers have more contol over the pressure rising in the hose then the old analogue varistream.
The reason i ask this is, that i use hot water, and have the blue dial inside the old varistream, set to its lowest position, and when the flow is stopped it builds pressure for about 10 seconds or so before shutting off.
I would like a controller with a lower shut off setting, is this new one the answer ??

Hi Steven
We have had those analogue controllers mess around. If you open the contoller again (sorry) and rotate the pot adjuster clockwise and anti clockwise about 20/30 times we found that this cleans the adjusters 'tracks' which appear to oxidise over time.
This was an old electronic tip that we were told about with 'slide' volume controls on radios.

It may help although we found that the pressure cutout reduced over time.

I have noticed the digital controller behaves differently depending in what hose we use. The original minibore hose we bought was from Cleantech and my son still uses it on his 100m hose reel. It is very firm and has very little flex. So  when using his hose the controller switches off virtually immediately after the tap is switched off. The problem with this hose is that you sometimes have to wait a few seconds until the controller starts the pump when you switch the tap back on.

The latest hose that I have on my hose reel is from Gardiners and it is a lot more flexible. So once the tap is switch off the same pump runs on for longer as the hose swells under the pressure and acts as a reservoir. The good thing about this hose is that there is never a time when you open the tap that you have to wait for the water at the brush head. Same pump, same Varistream, same connecting hose, same hose reel, same brush and connector - just different hose with two total different results.

If I'm experiencing this with cold water, then I have to imagine that hot will exacerbate this.

Spruce

I will try cover the points you both raise here.

It is difficult to comment on the varistream as the way it works and deals with pressure build up and DE is different to the way our controls do.

To answer Steven yes the new control will give greater control over how much pressure builds up before DE activates. This is achieved by the manual calibration switch (Left side control )
The control has to allow some pressure to build up in order to give you a flow.

1.Spruce is spot on when he comments different hose type and stiffness of the hose wall will effect this pressure build up and at what point the control stops the pump then restarts it again as DE is detected. I am not surprised to see a few seconds delay for the flow to restart this is normal.

With a stiffer hose wall the pressure will build quite quickly as the hose is not able to expand very much so the Calibration on your control would need to be adjusted to take this into account. Calibration needs to be increased slightly (less sensitive)

A softer hose wall or warm water put through will mean the hose has greater expansion the pressure builds more slowly and the calibration would also need to be a little lower than with a stiff hose. ( More sensitive)

2. Now pressure build up while in DE is a completely different animal as left unchecked for long period and with out a pump pressure switch there is a risk of high pressure build up. This time the water has no where to go so left like this it is possible for connectors to blow hoses to spilt.

 The new Control reacts to pressure build up while in DE in a different way. There needs to be some pressure in the system for the control to test against, The new unit will only allow pressure to reach a point where it can test DE.
Then not increase pressure build up beyond this point, the amount of pressure to test against DE is well below the maximum.

The up shot is if you forget to turn the unit off and it sits in DE for long periods there is no risk to the connectors or hose blowing or splitting.

Hope This helps if Not feel free to drop me an email