[john martin]

Have a look at this

http://www.centralvacuummotor.com/Product%20Bulletin/122236-18.pdf

Orifice size 1.5" = amp draw of 7.4 amps.

It's a complicated bit of maths but multiply that by two and you get 14.8.  Even further mathematical acrobatics would allow you to subtract 13 from 14.8 to result in a remainder of 1.8 amps more than deemed allowable for a UK circuit.

Even if you use a different orifice size it still comes out too much unless you use the sizes that are way too small for the use of these motors in the machines we're talking about

A very reputable and knowledgeable person in our industry has actually put a voltage meter across a 6.6 motor in use and it gave a real-world reading of 7.19A

Like I said, if it could be done it would have been done surely

I said 6 on average ... or 7    thats what you'd expect
I will have to look up the exact model lamb alltec ect use but it wont be less than that ... so it it being done ... two motors + pump one cord no probs ...

Why do think it should have been done ?  

only ones using is CA ... they would have to design a machine specifically for the uk ...  easier to give us the  USA vbersion and let us get an inline heater or whatever .....

[john martin]

As I understand it's the initial draw at start up where the problem occurs, both vacs on one cable would draw too much, obviously this has not yet been negated even with seperate switching. Going back to the Alltec pro which included a 3k heater, the vacs were on one cable indivdually switched which never caused me a problem. so the issue is with the 6.6 vacs. The Airflex Storm has the vacs split on to each cable with the remote system on one and the pump on the other. The pump out is mechanical. I agree with Colin I don't know why the twin 6.6 works better than tripple 5.7's but it does.

There is no problem or difference with the 6.6 ... with any multi vac machine you would turn the vacs on one at a time anyway as good practise  ... but most of the time even turning two at atime does nothing ..

have you tried a triple vac   ...  even on the CA site they state the cfm for the scorpion as 327cfm .... and the  jag as 289cfm( which is wrong ) about 250 more like it

there is no way in hell two motors has more CFM than 3 !!!

[john martin]

A very reputable and knowledgeable person in our industry has actually put a voltage meter across a 6.6 motor in use and it gave a real-world reading of 7.19A

Like I said, if it could be done it would have been done surely

so ... the lamb used by alltec here is the same as it makes no difference
http://www.ametekfsm.com/Product_View.aspx?MT=1&Record_ID=6670

what problems do you ever have ... triping circuits  ?

if im using a twin vac with 3000w heater ... i plug it all in to the room /circuit
and add a couple of blowers to that at times ..

i seldom or ever trip fuses related to load in room ...

[AJB]

On my Powrflite i have 2 x 117123-13s '1500W, plus
the water pump 1/2 hp motor on one lead.
The other lead has the heater 1.8Kw, and an outlet
socket i fitted to run my auto pump out. Later models
have a higher heater rating.
with no load on the vacuums, and the pump running
it draws 12.5 - 13.75 amps on lead one. Never had a problem.
Theres tempting fate  :
Lead two with heater and auto pump out running draws 8.5 Amps.

[mark_roberts]

As Jim has said the big questions should be can you have two 6.6vacs, a decent pump, auto pumpout and enough voltage left to run a diesel heater or similar with two leads only.

Mark

PS. regarding    We were born with an autopilot set toward Hell. It is nothing to take lightly - Hell is the single greatest tragedy in the universe - REPENT and Choose Christ Today!

I completely agree.

[Jamie Pearson]

an outlet
socket i fitted to run my auto pump out

Are you willing to share more info on this please?
Do you have any pics of the set up.
I have two of the early model 1350s and would be interested in setting up something similar.
If I dont have more than a decent idea of how its done my engineers will chase me out of the workshop.

[john martin]

As Jim has said the big questions should be can you have two 6.6vacs, a decent pump, auto pumpout and enough voltage left to run a diesel heater or similar with two cords

Yes ,  as AJB demonstrates above , however there are a lot of variables and you would have to define what spec you consider to be decent performance .... for  ,with example , i dont do T&G and an 800psi pump is wasted on me ... even when using a 500psi 205 i tend to turn way down ...

If you just put the two 6.6 vacs on cord one for example,  according to the max rated amp draw that would be max 14 amp , which would be fine , however as you restrict flow you lower amp draw , so take into consideration the machine internal plumbing ,tank , ... add 25-50 foot 2' hose and your whiphose , add the tool , wand ,so in normal use you would be drawing a lot less than the rated max .

On cord two  ... say a 500psi 205 on a 1/2 HP pumpmotor will be aprox 300w and draw 1.5 amps ...
                         lets say the pumpout also draws 1.5 amps
                         That will leave you with 10 amps ( or more ) to use for your heater etc , 10 amps will get you 2300 watts to use ...  so you could safely have a 2000 watt inbuilt heater ...
You could use 1/3 hp pump insted if wanted ...

For diesel heater , not sure if you had the zeta in mind or a hotbox ... the zeta has to power its pump also so should draw a bit more than just a burner on its own ... but i think they just surge at startup and dont draw much during use ..

dont know whos going to build it though ... best to modify your own machine to suit yourself ....  the first two 6.6 are sold on e-bay so someone must have plans ....

[Jim_77]

John, all I can suggest is that you go into business designing and selling portables.

Make sure you offer a good warranty

[john martin]

lol .. many talents
I'll make them sign a disclaimer 

[Simon@arenaclean]

Quote Joun Martin

"There is no problem or difference with the 6.6 ... with any multi vac machine you would turn the vacs on one at a time anyway as good practise  ... but most of the time even turning two at atime does nothing ..

have you tried a triple vac   ...  even on the CA site they state the cfm for the scorpion as 327cfm .... and the  jag as 289cfm( which is wrong ) about 250 more like it

there is no way in hell two motors has more CFM than 3 !!!"

I will bow to your superior knowledge John I have used the tripple Airflex and now the Storm it just seems to work. Following on from your point, and the general configuration on 5.7 twins with a heater, it makes me wonder why the 6.6 machines are not run the same, must be a reason?

[john martin]

Quote Joun Martin

"There is no problem or difference with the 6.6 ... with any multi vac machine you would turn the vacs on one at a time anyway as good practise  ... but most of the time even turning two at atime does nothing ..

have you tried a triple vac   ...  even on the CA site they state the cfm for the scorpion as 327cfm .... and the  jag as 289cfm( which is wrong ) about 250 more like it

there is no way in hell two motors has more CFM than 3 !!!"



I will bow to your superior knowledge John I have used the tripple Airflex and now the Storm it just seems to work. Following on from your point, and the general configuration on 5.7 twins with a heater, it makes me wonder why the 6.6 machines are not run the same, must be a reason?

I am not Spanish  

No superior knowledge here , i like you have used a varity of machines including a triple vac , if you do the math you usually end up with more than 250 cfm in a triple vac parallel configuration , 250 is what i believe the jag makes based on the only tests we've seen .
The only machine manufactures that would the 6.6 in the configuration mentioned with the heater would be in the UK ... alltec  ect ...  it will not work at 120v in the USA . The jag is designed to make the best use of each cord at 120v .

Im dont doubt the twin 6.6 works very well ... but some seems to believe they are reinventing the wheel or posess huge performance   .. they are just motors with little metal fans attached like all the rest .

Posted before.. but here is a video of two 6.6 (the jag ) up against two lighthouse 5.7 ( mytee M5)  
you can see the lighthouse specs in my ' top vacs ' thread further down ...
The lighthouse out performs the 6.6 here ... and in my specs ...  but everyone still wants the 6.6  :/  ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KKAzll_-NA

[AJB]

On my machine i had the pigtail leads, and hated them,
I searched around to replace them and found these, which
were new to the market at the time, and expensive then.
Amtech have seen them and were impressed.
http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3FCA.asp

http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3MPA.asp

 The pigtails were replaced by the inlet sockets, the plugs by in inlet plugs.
All internal wiring fitted inside
http://www.maplin.co.uk/general-purpose-abs-plastic-box-a-e-series-43708

A feed was taken off the heater socket inside the machine and run via

http://www.maplin.co.uk/ip65-double-pole-push-switches-517976
fitted on the switch plate, to an outlet socket

http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3MPBI.asp

The pump out motor is a 12v bilge pump
http://www.whale.ltd.uk/marine/product_list/8/142/  powered by

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_785261_langId_-1_categoryId_165657
this plugs into the outlet through

http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3FCB.asp

I didn't want it permenantly fitted, hence the wiring arrangement, it pumps out through a spare porthole lid, via a hozelock non-return valve, although it runs well enough without the valve fitted.
this system allowed me to do one of my schools this summer, usually 6 days work, and crippled at the end
in 2 days.

[Jamie Pearson]

Cheers for sharing.

Amtech had an Eco500 at CCC with similar mains cable sockets installed.

[AJB]

I could have converted mine to the newer sockets
but i wanted something smaller and neater. Those
Neutrik ones popular with Sky and the Beeb, as they
lock in place and can't be accidently pulled out. They
are 20 Amp, although they do a 32 Amp version.

[john martin]

On my machine i had the pigtail leads, and hated them,
I searched around to replace them and found these, which
were new to the market at the time, and expensive then.
Amtech have seen them and were impressed.
http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3FCA.asp

http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3MPA.asp

 The pigtails were replaced by the inlet sockets, the plugs by in inlet plugs.
All internal wiring fitted inside
http://www.maplin.co.uk/general-purpose-abs-plastic-box-a-e-series-43708

A feed was taken off the heater socket inside the machine and run via

http://www.maplin.co.uk/ip65-double-pole-push-switches-517976
fitted on the switch plate, to an outlet socket

http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3MPBI.asp

The pump out motor is a 12v bilge pump
http://www.whale.ltd.uk/marine/product_list/8/142/  powered by

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_785261_langId_-1_categoryId_165657
this plugs into the outlet through

http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3FCB.asp

I didn't want it permenantly fitted, hence the wiring arrangement, it pumps out through a spare porthole lid, via a hozelock non-return valve, although it runs well enough without the valve fitted.
this system allowed me to do one of my schools this summer, usually 6 days work, and crippled at the end
in 2 days.

 Not familiar with pumpout at all , where do you position the bilge pump , the wiring to the pump and the outlet pipe ?

[robert meldrum]

Simon

A similar response was made by many when someone presnted an electrically powered motorcycle which was on TV a few days ago...............but the designer has apparently massively increased the power output from the traditional design on his machine which has proven to be more than equal to internal combestion engines.

Unfortunately I only saw a few seconds and don't know which program it was on, but with his engine I reckon the petrol / diesel T/M's days could be numbered.

I should add my comments are based on a very brief viewing but it caught my attention and I'll be looking out for the programme to, hopefully. see it again

[john martin]

Simon

A similar response was made by many when someone presnted an electrically powered motorcycle which was on TV a few days ago...............but the designer has apparently massively increased the power output from the traditional design on his machine which has proven to be more than equal to internal combestion engines.

Unfortunately I only saw a few seconds and don't know which program it was on, but with his engine I reckon the petrol / diesel T/M's days could be numbered.

I should add my comments are based on a very brief viewing but it caught my attention and I'll be looking out for the programme to, hopefully. see it again

Interesting ...  but are you drawing an analogy to the vacuum motor , or the Jag in particular ?  Any responce by me is based on fact and there is no mystery as to the design or performance ...
If you've heard different elsewhere its likely to be by those defending a marketing strategy .
As to vacuum motors or other motors generally , the work done is proportional to the energy consumed and you get nothing for free energy wise  , and while newer fan designs may slightly alter efficiency , lift and cfm are inversely proportional  you are playing around with  a limited set of parameters , electrical ,physical .

[robert meldrum]

It's been argued on here with some regularity that electric motors can't compete with the power of IC engines, but the motors on these machines are incredibly powerful. The smallest ones producing  15 -18 hp, the bigger ones around 40hp .

I may be barking up the wrong tree but a blower powered by a 40 hp motor must surely be more than an equal of the 18 hp diesels or petrol engines currently used.

Seems the advances in electric power have been huge in the past few years as can be witnessed by the number of cars now available.

It's bikes I was reading about and the best for normal use at the moment can do 100 mph and a charge will take it 100 miles. This is not a toy it's a full size bike.

The reason for the additional power from the 6.6's is in better engineering   

[john martin]

It's been argued on here with some regularity that electric motors can't compete with the power of IC engines, but the motors on these machines are incredibly powerful. The smallest ones producing  15 -18 hp, the bigger ones around 40hp .

I may be barking up the wrong tree but a blower powered by a 40 hp motor must surely be more than an equal of the 18 hp diesels or petrol engines currently used.

Seems the advances in electric power have been huge in the past few years as can be witnessed by the number of cars now available.

It's bikes I was reading about and the best for normal use at the moment can do 100 mph and a charge will take it 100 miles. This is not a toy it's a full size bike.

The reason for the additional power from the 6.6's is in better engineering   

Ok ...  lets just define the ' additional power' of the 6.6
two 6.6 in parallel gives you an additional 40 or 50 cfm over the standard lamb 5.7 , the lift is the same .
40 or 50 cfm is usefull , so i rate the 6.6 as a very good performer but it is not 'huge performance '   
In order to get small truckmount performance you need to put two 6.6 in paralllel and add two more in series ..ie four 6.6
As for the ' better engineering ' all thats different is a thicker center fan and a conical bottom ... have a look at my ' top vacs ' thread further down and see that others are using the same design .

As for PD blowers ... the domestic electricity cannot really supply enough power to turn the blower fast enough for big performance ... the bane is about 1.5 HP
...   if you have a three phase supply handy and some spare change there is a machine waiting for you ...
http://www.steam-brite.com/store/stationary-electric-truckmount-volts-phase-p-11158.html

as for cars ... you cant compare ... would cost thousands to fill your truck with heavy lithium batteries and would have to recharged all night .

[Jamie Pearson]

maybe when PV Panels improve more we will have solar TMs.