[stuart mc]

found it...your right...its not the type we have though

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/acatalog/Basic_Products.html

not sure if it is any safer than out pointed top ladders though....seems to do the same job tbh

bit pricey for a stand off, but at least I know what it is now

[Lee Burbidge]

james don't worry mate, I have read this all and you have clarified a few things for me, I am going to have to re think a few jobs, mainly internal ladder work, but seeing both sides has made me wiser and shown that I was slightly wrong in my knowledge.

see chatting bout these things does really give results

[idealrob]

some people think its a guidence , the others know its law

here is a defination of legislation

leg·is·la·tion   [lej-is-ley-shuhn]  Show IPA
noun
1.
the act of making or enacting laws.
2.
a law or a body of laws enacted.

its a law, if it was a guide why was michael mills prosecuted for not complying with the law , the first prosecution of the WAHR 2005, and it cost him thousands, or do you still  believe its a guide

idealrob

[idealrob]

Here is the details for Michael Mills prosecution for breaking the law & no accident took place

http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05124.htm

On 13 April 2005, seven days after the regulations came into force, three employees of Michael Mills arrived at a site to salvage tiles from a building prior to demolition. The employees used an unsecured ladder to access a pitched roof and started to strip the roof even though no risk assessment had been undertaken and no provision had been made for them to work safely at height.

idealrob

[Londoner]

No one is going to arrest 100% trads and HSE are only interested in people injured by ladders when it goes to court. You not going to take yourself to court are you?

Thats not true, I know of at least two cases where people have been done purely for working off ladders. No accident or incident involved H&S just turned up and nicked them because they were driving by and saw them.

Neither were window cleaners, the first were painters doing the outside of some flats and the second were two blokes fitting facias.

But all of this is missing the real point, can anyone show me a window above ground floor level thats not easier to clean WFP?

easier = quicker
quicker = more money
easier + quicker = less tired at end of day having done more jobs. More money in pocket

Where on earth is the argument in favour of trad?   Slower, harder work, less money, plus the risk of injury, even death and now the risk of prosecution as well.  Good choice lads, carry on, no worries there.

[dazmond]

good post vince!!said in a nutshell!!

ladders are needed sometimes but only a few times a week for me.some days i dont even have to get them off the rack!!!

i was pretty much what you could call a die hard tradder for years.glad i changed my attitude and method.WFP is for the most part the easier,safer method.

[idealrob]

good post Vince,  yes some jobs are better cleaned off ladders, and others better of wfp, some of us learn its a business, and the aim is to make a good living, working quicker and safer. All we hope that window cleaners work according to the law, and no lives a shattered as the advert says

idealrob

[stuart mc]

good point vince but irrelevant, nobody was discussing whether trad was better, merely trying to sort out the actual rules if you do use a ladder, even if only now and then. a lot including me though under a certain height and in the right circumstances they could be used without tying or using a stabilising device was ok, but through the back and forth links being shared on this topic I can see I was wrong.

and yes I run a business and know fine well wfp earns me more, but I now need to work out how I am going to do some jobs, internally mostly and comply with the law

[Dave Willis]

Wouldn't worry - nobody else does round my way. Watched a builder climb up an unfooted ladder last week up onto the roof pull a couple of tiles off for a handhold and carried on working - lobbing chunks of mortar over the edge. Gutter installers working off ladders not tied off, same with painters and ariel fitters. Cavity wall workers right at the top of a ladder under the gables with a whacking great drill, no hands on the ladders. No helmets no high viz vests no warning cones - nothing. They must p themselves laughing at window cleaners.

[idealrob]

Wouldn't worry - nobody else does round my way. Watched a builder climb up an unfooted ladder last week up onto the roof pull a couple of tiles off for a handhold and carried on working - lobbing chunks of mortar over the edge. Gutter installers working off ladders not tied off, same with painters and ariel fitters. Cavity wall workers right at the top of a ladder under the gables with a whacking great drill, no hands on the ladders. No helmets no high viz vests no warning cones - nothing. They must p themselves laughing at window cleaners.

The only laugh at the WFP guys, not the ladder guys, and as for the roofers its called ignorance, and not all roofers work like that, its the same in every industry i guess

idealrob

[james51174]

Right guys...Im back...and moving on

first off...Rob, thanks for your concern...I know all you had was my (and others reading) best interests at heart mate, so thanks you

Now I am playing devils advocate here...and bare in mind I DO use WFP for lots of work...but it is only a tool for me...as is traditional methods....

To this post

Where on earth is the argument in favour of trad?   Slower, harder work, less money, plus the risk of injury, even death and now the risk of prosecution as well.  

 WFP is always the best way, is it...really?

maybe there are alot of times that a ladder is safer to others around

yes, a ladder can be both a trip hazzard, as well as a hazzard from falling objects

but lets look at a job on a high street...lets say a flat above a shop

lets say that it isnt possible to do the job out of hours for what ever reason (and there are many)

is it ladder safer to use a ladder, sufficiantly coned or barrierd off with warning signs and a footer to both maintain the ladders grip, and warn anyone blind (or anyone not concentrating) about the hazzard?

Or is WFP safer?

yes you can barrier off the area as well...but to what extent?

how far is the van from the job?

is there 20metres of hose to barrier off?

do we need to bear this in mind...?....

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/documents/Safety_in_Window_Cleaning_using_Waterfed_Pole_Systems.Ameded.2%20pdf.pdf

Hazards associated with the use of waterfed poles
• Trip hazards to general public presented by trailing hoses.
• Slip hazard presented from wet pathways.
• Slip hazard for operator while concentrating on work.
• Falls from height when working from flat roofs.
• Electrocution from pole coming into contact with overhead power source.
• Injury to others from falling poles or fabric of the building that may be dislodged.
• Injury to others from falling poles caused by incorrect handling or failure of pole.
• Injury through incorrect manual handling of poles and other equipment.
• Spread of legionella disease through poor maintenance of the system.
• Hazards from carrying tanks, systems and equipment that are overloaded, unstable, unsecured or
incorrectly installed within a vehicle.

Working in exposed positions
The need to concentrate on overhead activity may expose the operator to further hazards that may
include:
• Trips or falls.
• Falls from flat roofs.
• Collision with pedestrians or road traffic.

Risk Assessment
The purpose of risk assessment is simply to identify particular risks on any job in order to take precautions
to minimise them, typically these may include:
• Instruction in the need for the operator to be vigilant with regard to the surroundings.
• Providing adequate PPE and/or roof edge protection or other systems.
• Giving consideration to the day and time of cleaning.
• Provision of hi-viz clothing.
• Cordoning off work areas to prevent public access.


so with this all in mind......is the ladder both easier, and safer to the public if correctly used and barriered off?

you could argue that a WFP trolly system would be just as effective as a ladder, as you could barrier off a far smaller area......

but what about the risk to the public in the rare case of a dropped pole?

I may be wrong....but in all my HSE digging over the last few days, Im sure i read somewhere that there is legislation regarding barriering off an area big enough to cover a dropped pole at the height its extended to

Is this still the best method to use in a high street...or public area?

I would say that it has its own liabilities, as does a ladder depending on where you are working, who is around...and what time of day

i was asked while working on a building site (nearly finnished work area...no public around but loads of sparkies etc) to not use the pole as it posed too many hazzards with all the hoses around....so they requested a ladder

now i will stress that i would rather use WFP as it is easier and quicker(not in every case but generally).......so im not posting this because im pro ladder....but is ''easier and quicker'' worth the risk in all circumstances???

have a think then discuss

and if anyone knows of any hse links to the safe use of WFP please post as i would be interested to see how far we need to go in public areas for public safety

[stuart mc]

james I have come across a few times where wfp is more dangerous than ladders, indeed I have been stopped from working from H&S rep from a company as the risk to the public was higher than risk to myself, and that was at 6am

I also know that in certain areas of a city centre that wfp above a certain height was stopped by H&S and they had to go back to cherry pickers/scissor lifts etc, no matter what time of the day or night

back onto ladders though I have one job that involves opening large double sash windows, hooking onto an eye bolt/certified yearly and me wearing a fully body harness, and taking a small pointer out onto a small balcony to clean the top of the sash windows, they are georgion though so a trad pole would be useless, and a stabiliser for the ladder would not work either, I am at a loss how this can be done and comply with all regs

[james51174]

step ladder?

small stool of hop up?...bit like the ones for reaching in stock rooms?

[idealrob]

your post is a bit confusing james but i understand your concern, i was doing a job today, and yes some of the window would have cleaned better using a single 18 foot ladder, secured by a rojac ladder stop,  and in this case the result would have been better, due to flaking paint on metal frames, and lots of shrubs, not giving us a good enough angle, but we uses wfp, as it complies with the law and makes it safer for everyone, as no public around, but for me and the staff, if hse or anyone else asks, we have done our best and complied with the law, as the bible says " give to ceasar what is ceasars" and i know i have done this, i know i will get some stick on here, for this statement, but i am happy with the methods, even though on some jobs it is not the best method  for getting great results

idealrob

[james51174]

how big is the balcony?

does it have guard rails?

[james51174]

your post is a bit confusing

idealrob

it was mainly to play devils advocate

and aimed at those who say that wfp is ALWAYS better, quicker etc...to make them think a while about it

i agree it is quicker, easier...and 9 times of 10 a better job.....but is every case safer with WFP???

an area in publis to barrier off for wfp to be safe is far larger than whats required to make a ladder safe

and in public its not always possible to provide a safe area to work in with wfp....think small pavements, public roads etc

mainly the post was to make people think about IF the pole is always better in the HSE eyes

[stuart mc]

step ladder?

small stool of hop up?...bit like the ones for reaching in stock rooms?

cheers mate won't do though each pain must be 6 foot, and there is no difference to standing on my pointer to standing on a step ladder really, these old balconys have a habit of collapsing so I suppose it doesn't matter much as I am ok as I am hooked to the building

yes the balcony has rails and it goes out around two feet at a guess, I need the pointer so I can climb at an angle into the window edge, I suppose either way pole or ladder or step ladder I am covered as I hook onto the eyebolt, I am not overly worried as I can't see any other method of doing it

[james51174]

there is a difference stuart as a step ladder (provided it is suitable for trade work) is stable...and i dont THINK it requires any aditional stabilizing equipment...or a footer to use one

i would say any equipment liable to fall (inc the step ladder) should also be secured/tied in case it falls

a caution sign inside the window to remind people you are out there, and climbing in/out

maybe caution signs directly below you on the ground reminding of over head work

[stuart mc]

there is a difference stuart as a step ladder (provided it is suitable for trade work) is stable...and i dont THINK it requires any aditional stabilizing equipment...or a footer to use one

i would say any equipment liable to fall (inc the step ladder) should also be secured/tied in case it falls

a caution sign inside the window to remind people you are out there, and climbing in/out

maybe caution signs directly below you on the ground reminding of over head work

thanks, I hear you, but it is done at 5am no one in the office apart from the guy that lets me in and below is an empty basement area, and if the balcony did go a pointer or step ladder falling would make no odds really, don't worry about it I would really need to take a pic for anyone to understand, it is old cast iron balcony on a sandstone wall built however may hundred years ago

[stuart mc]

never mind me though, James makes a much more interesting post about wfp being unsafe at times and where is the guidelines/law on this?