[idealrob]

not trying to argue with you but for work that doesnt require prolonged amounts of time to complete, it doesnt have to be secured by law ....at least for window cleaning and work under reasonable height/angles

But you are arguing, where does it say it doesnt have to be secured , we are dealing in a law passed by parliament, not some idiot down the pub with his oponion, if i am wrong please argue and put the information on here, mine was a goverment legislation document with a web link. i am sick to death of excuse ar so called mickey mouse excemptions and here say, i will say it again ITS LAW, ITS LAW, no excemption for window cleaners.fact
go on punk make my day

idealrob

[james51174]

lol...ok buddy....i will carry on as i am, because i know im right....as said...i dont want to argue, so i wont get into it x

[idealrob]

you know you are right lol
as usuall its my ball and i am going to take it away, cant back  up the information you post, and say you are right, come on prove me wrong and £100 donation to a charity, if you are right you cant loose
Mine was goverment law, yours it not worth anything, prove me wrong please

go on punk make my day , or like all knowalls go away and hide, £100 to charity, you cant loose

idealrob

[mikecam]

Crooks of the matter is - you are allowed to use ladders for cleaning domestic 1st floor properties, its not illegal and you dont have to buy wfp systems.

The Crux of the matter is you should follow the law. Just because the 'authorities' turn a blind eye to cleaning domestic 1st floor properties does not make it lawful in itself.

If you employ people then from a self protection point of view you will have a legal obligation to seek the safest way of cleaning windows to protect your staff from injury and death and to protect your business from a HSE prosecution.

Simples.

Now this agree with. This is my understanding of it.

[stuart mc]

Rob if it as clear cut as that, why did when I sent my lad on the safe use of ladders course, did they allow him to use and they instructed him on the use of a ladder without securing? I read a while ago, but unfortunately I can't remember where that only a ladder over 9m should be secured, but it was down to risk assessment taking into consideration ground conditions for anything lower

[idealrob]

good point, but it also applies to one man bands, or partnerships, not just those who employ, imo

idealrob

[Lee Burbidge]

not trying to argue with you but for work that doesnt require prolonged amounts of time to complete, it doesnt have to be secured by law ....at least for window cleaning and work under reasonable height/angles

But you are arguing, where does it say it doesnt have to be secured , we are dealing in a law passed by parliament, not some idiot down the pub with his oponion, if i am wrong please argue and put the information on here, mine was a goverment
legislation document with a web link. i am sick to death of excuse ar so called mickey mouse excemptions and here say, i will say it again ITS LAW, ITS LAW, no
excemption for window cleaners.fact

lol jeeeeez calm down your gonna blow an eye socket lol
go on punk make my day

idealrob

[idealrob]

good point, but it also applies to one man bands, or partnerships, not just those who employ, imo

idealrob

Maybe they do not understand the law, and as said before, the HSE have not clarified what secured is, eg rojac ladder stopper. Who trained him in the safe use of ladders, two of our lads finished a course on Wednesday, but did not stay on for ladder course.
Its simple, i have emailed the HSE before, i will write and put it in writing from the HSE, it will take a week, but as said if its clear cut, in my oponion its is clear

idealrob

[james51174]

you know you are right lol
as usuall its my ball and i am going to take it away, cant back  up the information you post, and say you are right, come on prove me wrong and £100 donation to a charity, if you are right you cant loose
Mine was goverment law, yours it not worth anything, prove me wrong please

go on punk make my day , or like all knowalls go away and hide, £100 to charity, you cant loose

idealrob

why so angry rob....your being so abusive

i have only just completed a course at the ladder association http://ladderassociation.org.uk/public/home.jsp  ....they work with the HSE (as do other training schools) to promote safe working on ladders and step ladders http://ladderassociation.org.uk/public/Interview_HSE_Chief_Exec.jsp

the subject of securing ladders was extensive, and is backed up again by HSE

  In window cleaning work, all ladders longer than 6 m must be secured The need to secure ladders less than 6 m long will depend on a number of factors including:
●
height - the greater the height, the greater the risk;
●
lone work - self-employed cleaners cannot use footed ladders and not all locations may permit the use of stability devices;
●
inherent stability of the ladder - the more securely the feet and top are located, eg by wedging on the ground or into a corner of a building, the less the risk

the above quote does back up what i posted.....and comes from here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

and this..

5.  A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by—
(a)securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends;.
(b)an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or.
(c)any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness

which is taken from here

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/schedule/6/made

note section 5c as written above

i really dont want a fight...but your being so angry....im just stating what i learned, im not trying to attack or discredit what your saying

[matthewprice]

i find things really confusing ,i was given a hard time by local COUNCIL h&S  3 VERBAL WARNINGS and loads of extra reading ,felt forced to go wf ,but i see loads of trades up ladders still working granted not as high as i did but not according to the info i got .also in jan/feb got copy of new ammendments and they seem to say that footing a ladder is up for review.i think the law should be made clear for every one

[idealrob]

The information you use is from 2003, the WAHR was introduced in 2005, the information you gave is an information sheet and a guidline, mine in a law and as said passed in parliament, as i said before.
if you have any question write to the HSE, and let us know
i am sorry if come across angry, just we have large corporate clientss w work for eg Mars bars, Dupont international, EDF energy, and to get large contract have to have an uptodate H& S information and comply with the law

Thanks for having the ball* to reply and not runaway


idealrob

[james51174]

i did add a bit to the post...ill repost here

5.  A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by—
(a)securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends;.
(b)an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or.
(c)any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness

which is taken from here

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/schedule/6/made

note section 5c as written above

also this page has a section on tieing ladders which echos the above....and this is up to date from the 2005 regulation

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/faq-height.htm

thanks for calming down....as said...i wasnt trying to upset anyone

but i must stress that the course i did was only a few months back...with up to date information provided by HSE

there is a section on the above page which covers "are ladders banned" and it credits the people i did the course with as stated below .....

Are ladders banned?

 
No, ladders are not banned.  They can be used for low-risk, short duration work and where a risk assessment shows that other more suitable work equipment cannot be used due to the layout of the work area.
 
Schedule 6 of the Work at Height Regulations deals with the requirements for ladders.
 
For more information, see Safe use of Ladders and Stepladders or go to the Ladder Association website .



i even did a practical session where i had to demonstrate the use of a ladder at around 2-3 metres from the ground

i did pass without the use of fixing or footing the ladder

im only saying what i was told

[idealrob]

going to beD in a min , not having a go at you, but a quote i heard was  a question
"whats the most dangerouus part of a car"
Answer "the nut behind the wheel" its a double answer.

we have just completed NVQ courses, and run by training43, and andrew is one of the most qualified guys i know, as well as previously been a window cleaner, wont say what he said, as bring up another can of worms

I dont know the ladder courses you went on or the ability of the trainers, but i do trust HSE , and the large blue chip companies wont allow any ladders, and they trust us

idealrob

[james51174]

I dont know the ladder courses you went on or the ability of the trainers, but i do trust HSE , and the large blue chip companies wont allow any ladders, and they trust us

idealrob

I understand you may not have heard of them.....but the HSE link to the ladder association on their website, on the link i gave you in my above post

we work for companies who dont allow ladderds as well...but even they will say its not down to law, rather their own H&S protocol, mainly manipulated by insurance companies

[idealrob]

the companies we work for is down to law, and have worked on larg chemical companies eg ICI plc and whats left of it for 55 years, but please write to HSe, i am just trying to find a contact email for them, goodnight

idealrob

[james51174]

the companies we work for is down to law, and have worked on larg chemical companies eg ICI plc and whats left of it for 55 years, but please write to HSe, i am just trying to find a contact email for them, goodnight

idealrob

the companies you work for it is law only down to the risk assesments though is it not?

the link below covers wether ladders are banned and quotes....


The Regulations do not ban the use of ladders. Ladders can be used for low-risk, short-duration work and where a risk assessment shows that other more suitable work equipment is not appropriate because of the location.

Schedule 6 of the Work at Height Regulations deals with the requirements for ladders. For more information on ladder safety, see: Safe use of ladders and stepladders .

http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/faq.htm#comply-with-work-at-height-regulations

so from this i gather your risk assesment deemed ladders inapropriate?

this would explain things i guess


no need for the addy rob

we have been through all this directly with the HSE on more than one occasion....one such time was for a major nationwide construction company we work for...we sat in a room with their own H&S guys (whole team of them actually) going through it all....then confirmed directly with HSE

but thanks for thinking of taking the time for us

[Nathanael Jones]

Are ladders banned?
 
No, ladders are not banned.  They can be used for low-risk, short duration work and where a risk assessment shows that other more suitable work equipment cannot be used due to the layout of the work area.
 
Schedule 6 of the Work at Height Regulations deals with the requirements for ladders.

Exactly my point. I've no problem seeing ladders used properly, and where there is no alternative,... but very few 100% trad cleaners could even dream of meeting the criteria above.

As for "Low risk & short duration",... it might only take 60 seconds to clean a window, but if you go up the ladders 100 times a day then can it really still be called short duration?

[idealrob]

Just been looking on the ladder associatioand i have copied what it says" the Ladder Association, formerly the British Ladder Manufacturers' Association .
So just like ionic are biased towards wfp, these will be biased towards ladders, its obvious.
But look at the prices they are charging

What Will it Cost?

Membership Joining Fee                                          £375.00
 
Annual Membership Fee                                          £375.00
 
Training Centre Registration                                    £3000.00
 
Additional Training Centre Registration (Satellite)      £500.00
 
Annual Training Centre Audit Fee                             £400.00
 
Training Centre Delegate Registration Fee                 £10.00
 
All prices are exclusive of VAT, and subject to change without notice.

And people say wfp is too expensive

And acording to other posts above they do the training that does not seem to comply with the law, eg not securing ladders etc

By the way, what was the written risk assesment training like ?

idealrob
 

[Lee Burbidge]

That seems like a lot of money.

[tompoole]

I use the best tool for the job, if it's a pain with wfp then out
Comes the trad gear. I will use what ever gets the job done, I don't
Just stick to one, but have to say nearly all is done Wfp.