[davep]

That's my point, you can't see the contamination so hwe will spread it.  

Best to test carpet for traces as previous cleaning may have been working fine and then try a hwe versus lm yourself?

[The Great One]

Hi

And so the debate, Dry v HWE rages on.

As a sole dry cleaner for coming on 8 years i would have to say that dry will take out the urine as once it is re activated the pad/powder will soak it out.

simon if I can ask, the owner expressed that concern and seems to have convinced you that it's true, that they are spreading stuff around? It's a point you keep going back too but it comes across that it's because the owner has said so and you are of course backing up his fears as you want the work off the other contractor, what proof is there that is the case?

Are the skirting & walls covered in contaminates?

Martin

[clinton]

Very interesting post martin as i know you are into the trauma cleaning so a good point with the skirting boards etc

[Simon Gerrard]

Martin,
It is a perfectly legitimate question because it touches not just on cleaning, but on morality too. Jason was honest enough to admit that LM probably wasn't ideal because of the cross contamination issue which to my mind is not a cleaning question but a moral one. Clearly there is a risk with a padding system of spreading unidentified soiling to the surrounding area, whereas with HWE, especially an RX20 on a Truck Mount operating beyond 200 degrees, (hot water kills bacteria and viruses at 157 degrees) then you've got the flushing effect of super hot water that can atleast remove some of the contaminants and kill the bacteria.

I'm not trying to start an argument about LM v HWE, so let's try and have an adult debate about this without anyone throwing their dummy out of their pram, that way we might all learn something.

Simon

[davep]

Are you replacing underlay and treating subfloor?

[Steve Rothwell]

Surely there are chemicals now that kill all the bacteria, and extraction is just that, either by pad or by HWE, after all if the chemicals work, does it matter how the residue is extracted?

[Simon Gerrard]

Hector,
I don't think pads do anything that could be descibed as extracting. They may absorb some of the spillage but then spread the reaminder that cannot be absorbed into the pad in the short time it is over the area.

Simon

[The Great One]

Martin,
It is a perfectly legitimate question because it touches not just on cleaning, but on morality too. Jason was honest enough to admit that LM probably wasn't ideal because of the cross contamination issue which to my mind is not a cleaning question but a moral one. Clearly there is a risk with a padding system of spreading unidentified soiling to the surrounding area, whereas with HWE, especially an RX20 on a Truck Mount operating beyond 200 degrees, (hot water kills bacteria and viruses at 157 degrees) then you've got the flushing effect of super hot water that can atleast remove some of the contaminants and kill the bacteria.

I'm not trying to start an argument about LM v HWE, so let's try and have an adult debate about this without anyone throwing their dummy out of their pram, that way we might all learn something.

Simon

Simon, i wasn't attacking you at all mate, just asking what proof there is that pads only soak up 'some' and not all of the residue. I have never used them personally so cannot comment that they do indeed only soak up some and not all.

Can I ask that with HWE, the area would be left slightly damp for a period of time, 20 mins to over an hour. Although lets say the bacteria has gone there may still be organic waste in the area, old urine, blood or No 2's or vomit. If all organic waste has not been removed either through pushing it further into the backing or carpet, it will then, over time rot and then smell and bacteria will return.

Just a thought

Martin

P.S. No dummies are being thrown out from this side 

[Kinver_Clean]

Having learned to clean carpets in a care home we owned, I think HWE with a thorough method is the only way.

If they are replacing carpet they should fit solid backed carpet that will eliminate the soak through problem. It may cost more than a bit of 30 oz but will last and pay for itself in the long run.

Been there had the better carpet.

[Simon Gerrard]

Martin,
You make a good point. I just can't see how running a pad over a 'soiled' carpet is going to remove it, when at least extraction cleaning, espcially with a TM with solution temps inexcess of 200 degree is going to flush out more of the organic waste and kill the bacteria. I accept though that you cannot be sure of getting all of it out with any system but surely in this situation more is better.

Simon

[jasonl]

I just can't see how....................................


Says it all , bonnetting , however much you cannot comprehend it ,is a valid , honest carpet cleaning method that is different, to HWE , not better or worse just different.

Chem-dry, heavens best , dry fusion and dozens of other bonnetting systems are honest , proven systems of cleaning , as much as this is painful for you , it is true.

Yes flushing may be advantageous in a care home environment , but as has been said , chemical action is important too, as is client willingness to pay ,noise, access and other factors.

[Simon Gerrard]

Jason,
Why is when anyone asks a perfectly legitimate question concerning LM you feel the need to leap to its defence as if your life depended on it?

I have asked a perfectly legitimate question in which I have a genuine interest, so if I can't comprehend something I think I have a right to say so and perhaps give someone who does know what he is talking about a chance to clarify the situation.
Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you Jason, because of your bias you obviously can't help me get a clear picture of the situation so let's just leave it at that.
Simon

[jasonl]

I answered you question , about 5 times I think , I did not say LM was the best method on all occasions , however you clearly said you did not see how it works , I told you how it works .

I was very objective and fair in my answer .

[Colin Day]

Was it only 5 times....? I thought it was a lot more than that

[jasonl]

Was it only 5 times....? I thought it was a lot more than that

Its a good job then Colin that my life does not depend on  counting the amount of times I have said  ........................IT IS NOT THE PROCESS , BUT THE CHEMICAL WHICH IS MOST VITAL IN A CARE HOME SCENARIO.

Funnily enough even the TM guys are saying the same thing on Mr Gerrards own forum 

[The Great One]

Martin,
You make a good point. I just can't see how running a pad over a 'soiled' carpet is going to remove it, when at least extraction cleaning, espcially with a TM with solution temps inexcess of 200 degree is going to flush out more of the organic waste and kill the bacteria. I accept though that you cannot be sure of getting all of it out with any system but surely in this situation more is better.

Simon

Hi Simon

it's a tough one I know, you've even got me thinking quite deeply about it.

If you reactivate the stain (vomit, urine etc) with a biocide the pad then will soak up that residue. but of course if it has gone deep into the pile and backing, say from a large 'accident' then there will be a lot of organic mositure in the carpet and a pad won't reach those areas (a 2D clean of a 3D object)

With a TM of course you can flood the area but you still need the chemical to make the organics inert, to kill the bacteria in the 1st place and of course make sure that everything has been extracted.

i did a alcohol vomit last week in a hotel using my trusty EnviroDri. Sprayed area, got excess out with a terry towel, sprayed again added sponges, brushed in, had a coffee while drying and vacced up added deodourizer.

Bob's yer Monkhouse!

No call back and 100% removal (it was red vomit as well  )

Martin

[wynne jones]

There you go Mr Carehomeowner I've spread poo all over your premises now, but it's OK I've chemically made it safe. PMSL 

I wonder how all the families of the poor old people who are walking around in all that filth would feel if they knew. When I rinse out an old peoples home with the TM I think about the people living there and their families, not just about the convenience and the money.

[jasonl]

 this is done So that when they mop a hard floor in a care home , the germs that are spread around , equal and match the grems in the carpet.

Of course chemicals are used though .   I am sure that the heat from a TM could remove all bugs in the 0.01 of a second between the water hitting the carpet and being extracted , even though just to boil drinking water takes 10 minutes.

[wynne jones]

It's not even the heat Jason it's the extraction capacity. You may make the stuff in the carpet safe, odourless and invisible, but why not get the stuff out. You have a TM use it. OK it's a pain and there are issues with trip hazards etc I go in early before they get up, sure there's always someone wandering around trying to chat me up  but the staff are fully briefed and they feel it's worth the extra trouble.

Corridors with no probem? hell, LM all the way baby!

[garry22]

Also...

Tip 1.

Do not schedule a job in a care home when Little Mo is up in front of the judge for murder in Eastenders.

We managed to remove most of the sit down protest but one was made of sterner stuff.

It ended up with four nurses lifting a chair leg each and removing said lady (still in chair) and depositing her and chair into another room.

Tip 2. Don't mix up people's chairs. There WILL be a riot (of sorts).