[Paul H]

advice please.....cleaning contractor providing poor service to office......office company looking to source another contractor for cleaning services (i.e me).......
1.why cant they dispense of their services?
2.Re source a new contrcator (i.e me)
3. Why should i inherit poor performing workers from another company

I can't wrap my head around this in that i am not taking over the other cleaning company.....in which case i understand the keeping their staff issue...

surely there is a freedom for a business to look elswhere for services?? advice and help welcome please

Thanks
Paul

[Helen]

TUPE was set up to protect the employee.
Your best bet is to look on the Acas or Direct Gov site.
The idea that you take over the staff, means that you should be better than the last boss at managing them and getting the job done better.

[Paul H]

does the company (ie the customer) not have a right to ditch the firm???...does this apply to window cleaning or any other contract for that matter???.....

[Denise l]

Any contract. You have two options, one is to ask the firm to cancel their contract with the other firm, wait 1 day then appoint a new contractor-you. Two you take on the existing staff and come down on them hard with regards to standards, time etc until either they change or they leave.

[Adam P]

dn't go assuming that the cleaners are bad because they a not decent people that don't want to do a good job. they may be under trained, under paid, treated poorly, not focused on why they need to do a good job for you themselves and the customer, given too much freedom, copying the supervisor etc.

i know in a previous job where i was the cleaner everyone would sit down every 30 minutes for 10 minutes at least as they got into that routine. i copied as it's what everonye would do but  iwouldn't say i was a bad worker. when we had new employers it changed and everyone got into the correct way of working etc, though some left as they found it too hard. you'llf find it'll be similar. they'll either leave or stay and start doing the job they are supposed to be doing. If you're given the contract the customer should know that there may be issues with TUPE

[Paul H]

Denise - I dont think its simple as cancelling the contract, then taking over the next day - I 'm led to believe TUPE still apllies and have to take on the cleaners from the other company....this is the problem!....i have my own staff to employ and do this...i will do this with less staff and the cleaning will be to a highre standard...i know this....I will myself be one of the staff.....so therefore under TUPE if i reduce staff i have reduncy issues....why can't it be you've lost the contract cos you're poor end of! unlucky!....

GCS - I have my own trusted staff i want on this contract..don't think i should inherit staff from a company who has lost the job....after all they are their staff..i'm struggling with this.....!

someone has stated that if they spend less than 50% of their working week on this contract then TUPE doesn't apply and I can cjhoose not to take them on??.. them

[Adam P]

just tihnk of it from the cleaners point of view. if the company is doing a bad job at mainting standards, training, keeping supplies up to date etc then why should the cleaners lose a job? if they are no good you are still within your right to sake them doing normal procedures. it wont take long to get rid of someone if they're no good as long as you do your job properly which is what the customer is hiring you to do. it sucks i know but from the cleaners point of view it would suck even more if they've done a decent job then find out they've lost it.

[Gilbert Sprous]

There are some ways around TUPE but one of them is not to cancel the contract for a day, it states in the TUPE legislation words to the effect of letting someone go under the pretense of not undertaking that role anymore but then hiring for the same role, which is exactly what that would be doing.  You have to be careful, therefore it is essential to get the expert help that is required if you are planning on releasing someone.  If you open yourself up to Tribunal for Unfair Dismissal it can be expensive.

If the cleaner in place is the owner of the business that provides the cleaning then chances are you do not have to take them on.  If the cleaner has other employment with the company (some say 50% other say you should TUPE unless it is 70% on other sites) then you may not have to take them on.  There length of employment on that site has some to do with it also.  When they transfer it is as if they have worked for you the whole time.  So if they have under a year then they have not yet reached the thresh hold for Unfair Dismissal and Employment Protection, but you still need to take them on and do your paperwork correctly otherwise you are stepping on egg shells.  If they have been there less than three months and thier current contract allows for a probationary period then it is pretty easy but again make sure your paperwork is right.

If they are a poor cleaner, there is a good chance the last company did not do thier part in making sure she is being counseled and disciplinary procedures.  This will be your job especially if she has been there more than 2 years (or he).  I have found in the past that some companies dont want the hassel but once you start doing the necessary steps, the cleaner either leaves or comes around and starts doing what is expected.  Either way you look like the Hero, you get someone to work like they are supposed to or you manage them out, and sometimes when a cleaner is used to a free ride and someone comes in and makes them work, they just leave.

Hope it helps but as I said earlier, seek professional advice on the matter. 

Gilbert 

[gordonswindows]

All good advice but be wary of "getting rid of someone" as you will then be open to the accusation of constructive dismissal

TUPE not only protects the present staff it also protects your business too

If it was made easy to dump a contractor many business would change contractors every time they were not happy, contract or not and this would only lead to the price being forced down

It is one thing to have good staff but to be truly successful at being a contractor you must be able to manage ALL staff

Last point, do not be too quick to reduce the staff numbers which is the quick and easy way to increase profit just like the nationals do it usually this only leads to additional unforeseen issues with the client

Gordon

[pristineclean]

Be extremely wary of attempting to 'get round' TUPE - a large percentage of UK cases relating to service provision relate to the cleaning industry and a finding against you could lead to thousands of pounds in a claim.

Gilbert's uncertainty with regard to the percentile requirement for the 'organised grouping' of people who transfer under TUPE is understandable - the regulations specify that it should be a 'substantial' part and the only guidance available under case law is Hunt v Storm Communications which is an ET ruling and therefore persuasive at best.

The best approach is to take on the cleaner who is working on site and to let the customer know that it is your intention to manage effectively which will mean either a drastic improvement in service or a disciplinary process which is fair and which results in the incumbent employee being dismissed for the fair reason of capability or conduct.

To answer a couple of other points (this is a massive subject), window cleaners tend to work under a contract for service rather than a contract of service and would therefore not qualify for TUPE protection and I'd advise strongly against the viewpoint of assuming that a time break of any period will allow TUPE to fall away; the circumstances in which this applies are complex and usually related to the incumbent company having been liquidated or similar.

[Timmy Boy]

Hi Paul
The issue here is the existing company have not managed the staff and that is the point of TUPE. If you go into the site and re-train them the way you want them to clean, they will either :
a, Do as they are told and become a good addition to your business.
b, tell you where to stick your job and you will then be able to replace them.
c, Fail to meet your standards and you can then manage them out of your business.

Ps window cleaners don't count under TUPE as it is not their main job.

Regards

Tim

[Ron Thomson]

Does this suggest that window cleaners are all part-time casual workers with none of them doing it as their main job?

Tupe is a complex issue. We have taken over a number of cleaning contracts. Recently one worker just refused to turn up on day one of our contract saying we were changing her contract conditions contrary to TUPE . She then waited a month before sending us a letter saying she had not received any pay during her absence and demanded the job at her old place of work.  Took a while to sort out but she is now poor and jobless.

Ron

[Adam P]

i think he meant it's not their only job of the week, in that they'll have 100 customers a week losing one small one can't be classed as their main one