[Griffus]

Posted this in another string but it's already out of site so thought I'd try as a new topic. Thanks in advance:


We're looking at WFP as an option on a new commercial contract that we have, rather than subbing out.

Visited a supplier on Monday to discuss potential requirements. The main points picked on were: -

1)     Trailer systems are no good. This supplier did one and was honest enough to say that they'd prefer not to do another. The problem being the lack of suspension on the trailer leads to the system vibrating apart!!!

2)     Results - Whilst there I spoke to a window cleaner who made the switch last year. Really nice and helpful guy. He said that the results were not as good, nor would ever be as good when using WFP instead of Trad. The problem for him was the frames, especially on old properties (most of his round being 40 years + old).    The supplier was party to this discussion and didn't disagree, infact he nodded.

Looking for honest opinions from anyone and everyone with WFP experience, especially trailer owners and those that have had difficulties making the transition and have either reverted or persevered and succeeded.

[matthewprice]

i was trad 25 plus years and now have been wfp for 18 months i still find that some windows have problems no matter what i do,i was only doing 8 weekly ,now taken on new lad in the hope that more frequently will help.

[George P]

you wont regret going wfp, it takes a little to get used to it and its not without problems, but once you get used to it, it will be a good mave forward, as for the trailer i havent used one but a mate had a big trailer -  very good but not practicle on most jobs, either a van mount or trolley woul;d be much better,
cheers george

[Dave66]

leather>blade>wfp natural progression

[Spruce]

Hi
I started with one of Peter Fogwill's 375 liter trailers towed by a little Suzuki 1.3 Carry that I owned before I started WFP. (According to the local trailer suppliers and fitters, this arrangement wasn't man enough to carry the weight and had no end of problems with wheel bearings - in my experience with this trailer I would recommend anyone considering it not to.)

My experiences:
As the trailer was 'open' - 3 x 125l tanks secured to a frame - winter time was a real problem as everything just froze up - it was parked on the drive at night. The pump was in a pump box which could be removed and stored in the house on cold nights, but that didn't help with the supply and delivery hoses frozen. Because everything was so exposed, travelling to your first customer usually meant everything was frozen, even if it wasn't when I started off. Ideally, the trailer needed to be stored in a garage out of the elements.

If you are considering a trailer then an fully enclosed trailer with a lid on that has room for a frost heater is a very important consideration.

Secondly - buy a proper heavy duty, sprung, galvanised unit with decent tyres that will last. A braked 750kg would be ideal, but are much more expensive than a non braked equivalent. Twin axle trailers will tow better and be more stable but would be almost impossible for you to manouver by yourself.

Also ensure that the tow vehicle conforms to towing legislation for the weight. When my trailer was full it exceeded the max unbraked trailer weight that my van could tow, so had to carry an extra 80l of water in the van as 'ballast.'  Remember that when buying a trailer unit, you still need to carry hose reels and poles as well as your usual gear. So you need to find a way of doing that.

A trailer can sometimes be difficult to reverse - the shorter the base length, the more difficult to reverse. Always seemed to get into trouble in cul-de-sacs if there were too many cars parked around. If you need to uncouple an unbraked trailer on a hill with the trailer full of water, there is a pretty good chance it will end in disaster.

I looked around for a 750kg braked van trailer to replace this trailer, but they were more expensive second hand than a Fiat Ducato van, so opted for the equivalent of the later, a Ciroen Relay (van mount), and to be honest, this is the way I would advise you to go.

If the 2 of you are going to work together WFP then you will need a fairly big tank. My son and I work together off my van with a 650 l tank sometimes (2 man setup), and we can polish off 650l in a day easily.You might consider a back-pack (son can work with it all day but I can't) or a trolley which will allow one of you to work further away from the van on your own. 2 people working efficently WFP of one van is more difficult to achieve than Trad.

 I see there was a 2 man setup trailer on Ebay recently for £2000 with pumps and reels, but the tank was only 250l. They had a Merlin RO in the trailer as well - the theory probably was that they could process water from customer's taps, but that isn't always ideal, especially if customers are on a water meter - it would open a whole can of worms.

If you go the trailer route, I would suggest that the leisure battery in the trailer to run the pumps be linked to the tow vehicles charging circuit via a split charge relay, so at least you can run the tow vehicle's engine to give a flat battery a boost if you get caught out - happened on a couple of occasions to me. You could also couple another cable through to the trailer with a change over switch that would allow you to draw power from either the trailer of tow vehicle battery.
These would be the same wiring connections that caravaners use

Spruce

[Griffus]

Spruce, many thanks for your informed reply. You have confirmed a few of my concerns and highlighted several more that I hadn't considered in respect of the trailer system.

We have a Citroen Dispatch that is under utilised at the minute but it has a payload of just 815 Kg so might be suitable for a 400 litre RO system (assuming two users up front). This is still our other option and may be viable although for two users this would be way under capacity.

Is it possible to fill the tank whilst at the same time drawing from it? I'm just wondering if maybe we could connect to a supply whilst working on site.

[dave0123]

What vehicle would you be towing this with? its not like towing rubbish to the tip because water is different sloshing around is quite powerful 300 litres or more you will need a good 2 litre engine to tow with

[Spruce]

Spruce, many thanks for your informed reply. You have confirmed a few of my concerns and highlighted several more that I hadn't considered in respect of the trailer system.

We have a Citroen Dispatch that is under utilised at the minute but it has a payload of just 815 Kg so might be suitable for a 400 litre RO system (assuming two users up front). This is still our other option and may be viable although for two users this would be way under capacity.

Is it possible to fill the tank whilst at the same time drawing from it? I'm just wondering if maybe we could connect to a supply whilst working on site.

 Yes, a 4040 RO, although expensive would enable you to fill a 400 liter tank quite quickly. The problem I would envisage is with the waste water. We promote WFP as a eco friendly way of cleaning windows, but I think most customers would be appalled if they discover how much waste there is to produce pure, especially if they see it running down the road. I believe you would have to carry 2 extra hose lengths for this - a supply to the RO and a waste return to a nearby drain to 'hide' the amount of waste. You would also need a 12v solenoid valve and micro switch that would cut the water supply once the van tank is full.
 

[Griffus]

What vehicle would you be towing this with? its not like towing rubbish to the tip because water is different sloshing around is quite powerful 300 litres or more you will need a good 2 litre engine to tow with

At the moment I have the choice of two vehicles: -

1) Smartcar
2) Fiat 126

Only kidding!!

Currently this is just in the early thoughts stages. I am an ex Logistics manager though so am pretty switched on with train weights etc.

That said, any car or van suitable of towing a caravan safely will be suitable to tow a 200 - 350 litre trailer.


A very good point though and no doubt over looked by many. For those unsure I've just found this via google: -

http://www.ntta.co.uk/faq/  

"You can tow a maximum of 750 Kg with an unbraked trailer but you cannot exceed half the kerb weight of the towing vehicle. You can tow a trailer with a Gross Weight higher than your car’s towing limit as long as you only load it up to that limit. It is illegal to exceed the car’s towing limit".  

Then, as dave0123 states, once you know you're legal, check your vehicles got the torque.

[Spruce]

What I started with and what I replaced it with.

[Paul Coleman]

Spruce, many thanks for your informed reply. You have confirmed a few of my concerns and highlighted several more that I hadn't considered in respect of the trailer system.

We have a Citroen Dispatch that is under utilised at the minute but it has a payload of just 815 Kg so might be suitable for a 400 litre RO system (assuming two users up front). This is still our other option and may be viable although for two users this would be way under capacity.

Is it possible to fill the tank whilst at the same time drawing from it? I'm just wondering if maybe we could connect to a supply whilst working on site.

If there is a viable water supply on site, you could fill and draw at the same time.  However, it would need to be a very fast RO to keep up with you. A 40" RO might manage it though a twin 40" would be more likely to keep up.
If it's just for the odd job, have you considered resin only?
Also, if it really is a lot of hassle to set this all up, would subbing out really be so bad.  It would mean taking a reduced profit on the actual job but you would be free to manage other parts of your business while the subby did his stuff.  It may even be more profitable.  Of course it would need to be someone you could trust to do the job properly without going behind your back to your customer.

[Griffus]

Spruce, many thanks for your informed reply. You have confirmed a few of my concerns and highlighted several more that I hadn't considered in respect of the trailer system.

We have a Citroen Dispatch that is under utilised at the minute but it has a payload of just 815 Kg so might be suitable for a 400 litre RO system (assuming two users up front). This is still our other option and may be viable although for two users this would be way under capacity.

Is it possible to fill the tank whilst at the same time drawing from it? I'm just wondering if maybe we could connect to a supply whilst working on site.

 Yes, a 4040 RO, although expensive would enable you to fill a 400 liter tank quite quickly. The problem I would envisage is with the waste water. We promote WFP as a eco friendly way of cleaning windows, but I think most customers would be appalled if they discover how much waste there is to produce pure, especially if they see it running down the road. I believe you would have to carry 2 extra hose lengths for this - a supply to the RO and a waste return to a nearby drain to 'hide' the amount of waste. You would also need a 12v solenoid valve and micro switch that would cut the water supply once the van tank is full.
 

Spruce, thanks again.

Yes, I was surprised myself to hear figures of around 60% of water is wasted by the RO process. I see Ionics are doing one that wastes much much less, this is probably double the budget I have pencilled in though. I think your suggestion of a hidey hose sound a bit cheaper  

If we do go down the WFP path I will be including auto-shut off and Auto-Charge.

As I stated at the start of this thread I visited a local on Monday which was very informative. I have also emailed Ionics and Pure Freedom to ask their advice / recommendations etc.

That said, it is forums like this and guys like you that will help me with my final decision.

Thanks again.

[Griffus]

What I started with and what I replaced it with.

I see that you've even added Satelite TV :-)

[Spruce]

"You can tow a maximum of 750 Kg with an unbraked trailer but you cannot exceed half the kerb weight of the towing vehicle. You can tow a trailer with a Gross Weight higher than your car’s towing limit as long as you only load it up to that limit. It is illegal to exceed the car’s towing limit".  

This is where I had a problem with my Suzuki Carry - the 50% kerb weight of the towing vehicle - hence the additional ballast weight to correct that. I carried 80l of pure so if I ran out in the afternoon, always had extra. The Suzuki pulled that trailer without any issues although I was always nervous on downhills, especially in the winter and the wet.

[Griffus]

Spruce, many thanks for your informed reply. You have confirmed a few of my concerns and highlighted several more that I hadn't considered in respect of the trailer system.

We have a Citroen Dispatch that is under utilised at the minute but it has a payload of just 815 Kg so might be suitable for a 400 litre RO system (assuming two users up front). This is still our other option and may be viable although for two users this would be way under capacity.

Is it possible to fill the tank whilst at the same time drawing from it? I'm just wondering if maybe we could connect to a supply whilst working on site.

If there is a viable water supply on site, you could fill and draw at the same time.  However, it would need to be a very fast RO to keep up with you. A 40" RO might manage it though a twin 40" would be more likely to keep up.
If it's just for the odd job, have you considered resin only?
Also, if it really is a lot of hassle to set this all up, would subbing out really be so bad.  It would mean taking a reduced profit on the actual job but you would be free to manage other parts of your business while the subby did his stuff.  It may even be more profitable.  Of course it would need to be someone you could trust to do the job properly without going behind your back to your customer.

DI not make sense as it is a large commercial job, building to approx. two weeks solid work per month.

Subbing is still a consideration but it is more the reputation of my company I would worry about than work being stolen as we work via contracts and I would in turn set a contract in place between me and the subbie.

I did sub a small window and conservatory job out three years ago and we were called back to a couple of the windows. Let's just say that I was not happy and decided then that I'd not be doing that again.

Only subbed one windows job out since and this was a build clean on a complete new hospital wing where the customer requested we use their own window cleaner. A long story as to why but I agreed on the undersatnding that any issues were between the custy and the WC.

So, subbing more of a last resort at the minute.

[Spruce]

Spruce, many thanks for your informed reply. You have confirmed a few of my concerns and highlighted several more that I hadn't considered in respect of the trailer system.

We have a Citroen Dispatch that is under utilised at the minute but it has a payload of just 815 Kg so might be suitable for a 400 litre RO system (assuming two users up front). This is still our other option and may be viable although for two users this would be way under capacity.

Is it possible to fill the tank whilst at the same time drawing from it? I'm just wondering if maybe we could connect to a supply whilst working on site.

If there is a viable water supply on site, you could fill and draw at the same time.  However, it would need to be a very fast RO to keep up with you. A 40" RO might manage it though a twin 40" would be more likely to keep up.
If it's just for the odd job, have you considered resin only?
Also, if it really is a lot of hassle to set this all up, would subbing out really be so bad.  It would mean taking a reduced profit on the actual job but you would be free to manage other parts of your business while the subby did his stuff.  It may even be more profitable.  Of course it would need to be someone you could trust to do the job properly without going behind your back to your customer.

Hi Paul,

You are right with what you say, but if they start off in the morning with 400 litres full, they would really just need to top that up on site to give them a couple of hundred liters more for a full days work. If they went home virtually empty, they would certainly have enough time to completely fill a 400l tank with a 4040 overnight. They wouldn't need an RO that would keep up with them through the day.
Of course if they were on a water meter at home/depot, then maybe it would be better for them to go home with a full tank in the evening as well.  
Spruce

[dave0123]

ive towed 250 litres years back with a 1.7 diesel and it struggled to tow it! unless the trailer was full to the brim because the water could not slosh around as it get less throughout the day it struggled until of course near empty.

[Spruce]

Of course the other issue with using a water supply on site is that it can restrict you to where you park to 'tap' into their water supply. Another thing to find out is what water pressure they have as you may also need to run a booster pump if their water pressure is too low. This is another power consumer, so you may need to consider a larger leisure battery, and invest in a heavy duty intelligent battery charger to recharge it at night - every night as your van alternator won't do this.

[Spruce]

ive towed 250 litres years back with a 1.7 diesel and it struggled to tow it! unless the trailer was full to the brim because the water could not slosh around as it get less throughout the day it struggled until of course near empty.

Hi Dave

I can honestly say I never had that issue with my Suzuki, even with the van being so light. When the tanks where half full, the water would slosh about when I stopped, say at traffic lights, and rock the van backwards and forwards a bit. You could feel it, but was never an issue as I would keep my foot firmly on the brake. As the 3 tanks were linked together, they were always 'balanced' as the water always finds its own level. A tank fitted in a trailer must be baffled, and fitted the right way - so the baffles restrict forward and back movement - side ways movement in corners is hardly noticeable.

My son has a 500 litre tank in his Peugeot Partner 800 LX and we fitted that 'incorrectly' - baffles prevent side ways movement rather than forward and back and it isn't an issue. (We fitted it this way as the shape of the tank better utilised his limited space.)

Spruce

[dave0123]

this trailer at the time had two 125 litre tanks linked on on the left side one on the right side fitted down the side of each side, no baffles in each tank though. Maybe the vehicle i was using at the time just wasn't a good tower.