[trevor perry]

 i had a post removed earlier which wasnt anti the NVQ course but highlighted the number of courses and accreditations that we are told we need to improve our business, i am not against training but the majority of the courses cover much the same material and are pretty costly if sending a few employees on them. In andrew willis post he mentions the courses are government funded but in reallity we are still paying for them through our taxes and in the economic climate we are in i think the money could be better spent. One person claimed training43 recieved £1300 per candidate from the government i dont know if there is any truth in this claim but if it is true then i think the funding should be stopped.
     in my experience i have also found that many who take these courses fail to carry out the guidance when back in the workplace,courses such as IPAF give you a licence to drive a 150ft cherrypicker with only a one day course that includes about 30 minutes practical experience this i feel is far from adequate training.
  our firm has Safecontractor accreditation, Constructionline (this is similar to safecontractor but was told if we didnt have it then we would loose a contract as they only wanted to deal with firms who had constructionline) IPAF for use of cherrypickers, PASMA for scaffolding also training certificates in carpet cleaning, graffiti removal and also IOSH working safely so as you can see i am not against training.
   The government keep promising to reduce red tape for busineses and i strongly feel all the above accreditations are very time consuming to implement.
i think general principles of health and safety should be taught at the last year of school where pupils are given a sort of passport for safety which would prepare them for the workplace this could cover general principles such as manual handling, work at height etc this would free employers to only be responsible for training in task specific operations.
  What are others thoughts on this
   

[james44]

in my experience i have also found that many who take these courses fail to carry out the guidance when back in the workplace,courses such as IPAF give you a licence to drive a 150ft cherrypicker with only a one day course that includes about 30 minutes practical experience this i feel is far from adequate training.

totally agree you would not get 30 mins training to drive a car and be given a licence!

[Andrew Willis]

i had a post removed earlier which wasnt anti the NVQ course but highlighted the number of courses and accreditations that we are told we need to improve our business, i am not against training but the majority of the courses cover much the same material and are pretty costly if sending a few employees on them. In andrew willis post he mentions the courses are government funded but in reallity we are still paying for them through our taxes and in the economic climate we are in i think the money could be better spent. One person claimed training43 recieved £1300 per candidate from the government i dont know if there is any truth in this claim but if it is true then i think the funding should be stopped.
     in my experience i have also found that many who take these courses fail to carry out the guidance when back in the workplace,courses such as IPAF give you a licence to drive a 150ft cherrypicker with only a one day course that includes about 30 minutes practical experience this i feel is far from adequate training.
  our firm has Safecontractor accreditation, Constructionline (this is similar to safecontractor but was told if we didnt have it then we would loose a contract as they only wanted to deal with firms who had constructionline) IPAF for use of cherrypickers, PASMA for scaffolding also training certificates in carpet cleaning, graffiti removal and also IOSH working safely so as you can see i am not against training.
   The government keep promising to reduce red tape for busineses and i strongly feel all the above accreditations are very time consuming to implement.
i think general principles of health and safety should be taught at the last year of school where pupils are given a sort of passport for safety which would prepare them for the workplace this could cover general principles such as manual handling, work at height etc this would free employers to only be responsible for training in task specific operations.
  What are others thoughts on this
   

Trevor Just for the record we don’t make half of the figure quoted

We fund all material
Develop training courses
Cover all travelling
Cover wages for full time assessors and trainers
Pay for training rooms
Refreshments
Staff to book and administrate
All assessors maintain CPD training ourselves throughout our careers

When we spoke at Windex you advised us you had a change of heart and during my seminar said I was right the industry needs change and window cleaners to become more professional?

I agree with your other points

I am not sure your beef all the time with the Level 2
I clearly have seen the benefits it has given to companies.

If you really want something to campaign against why don’t you lobby insurance companies to start to recognise the efforts made by companies like you and for all the companies who reduce risk liability through good training to reduce insurance premiums? “Just a thought mate”

 

[trevor perry]

i had a post removed earlier which wasnt anti the NVQ course but highlighted the number of courses and accreditations that we are told we need to improve our business, i am not against training but the majority of the courses cover much the same material and are pretty costly if sending a few employees on them. In andrew willis post he mentions the courses are government funded but in reallity we are still paying for them through our taxes and in the economic climate we are in i think the money could be better spent. One person claimed training43 recieved £1300 per candidate from the government i dont know if there is any truth in this claim but if it is true then i think the funding should be stopped.
     in my experience i have also found that many who take these courses fail to carry out the guidance when back in the workplace,courses such as IPAF give you a licence to drive a 150ft cherrypicker with only a one day course that includes about 30 minutes practical experience this i feel is far from adequate training.
  our firm has Safecontractor accreditation, Constructionline (this is similar to safecontractor but was told if we didnt have it then we would loose a contract as they only wanted to deal with firms who had constructionline) IPAF for use of cherrypickers, PASMA for scaffolding also training certificates in carpet cleaning, graffiti removal and also IOSH working safely so as you can see i am not against training.
   The government keep promising to reduce red tape for busineses and i strongly feel all the above accreditations are very time consuming to implement.
i think general principles of health and safety should be taught at the last year of school where pupils are given a sort of passport for safety which would prepare them for the workplace this could cover general principles such as manual handling, work at height etc this would free employers to only be responsible for training in task specific operations.
  What are others thoughts on this
   

Trevor Just for the record we don’t make half of the figure quoted

We fund all material
Develop training courses
Cover all travelling
Cover wages for full time assessors and trainers
Pay for training rooms
Refreshments
Staff to book and administrate
All assessors maintain CPD training ourselves throughout our careers

When we spoke at Windex you advised us you had a change of heart and during my seminar said I was right the industry needs change and window cleaners to become more professional?

I agree with your other points

I am not sure your beef all the time with the Level 2
I clearly have seen the benefits it has given to companies.

If you really want something to campaign against why don’t you lobby insurance companies to start to recognise the efforts made by companies like you and for all the companies who reduce risk liability through good training to reduce insurance premiums? “Just a thought mate”

 

 it is not a beef against level 2 but against all the training courses and accreditation that we are told we need when most of the info on the courses is generic anyway, also you admitted yourself at windex that the majority of ones who took the course soon reverted back to how they did things previously anyway, as for costs that is your business and you have to make a profit which i am not against but dont expect me to believe you are offering these courses just for our own wellbeing and to improve our business and safety you are in it to make money the same as i am in window cleaning to make money, i would rather the government put funding into having public buildings cleaned properly and more often rather than into these courses but that is my view because i am a cleaner obviously you see it another way.

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

I agree with many of Trevor's points.

90% of this crap is just a "badge" to satisfy clients criteria IMO when 90% of them don't give a crap about what's behind it.

Too many people desperate to try & justify a job in this country!

[Andrew Willis]

i had a post removed earlier which wasnt anti the NVQ course but highlighted the number of courses and accreditations that we are told we need to improve our business, i am not against training but the majority of the courses cover much the same material and are pretty costly if sending a few employees on them. In andrew willis post he mentions the courses are government funded but in reallity we are still paying for them through our taxes and in the economic climate we are in i think the money could be better spent. One person claimed training43 recieved £1300 per candidate from the government i dont know if there is any truth in this claim but if it is true then i think the funding should be stopped.
     in my experience i have also found that many who take these courses fail to carry out the guidance when back in the workplace,courses such as IPAF give you a licence to drive a 150ft cherrypicker with only a one day course that includes about 30 minutes practical experience this i feel is far from adequate training.
  our firm has Safecontractor accreditation, Constructionline (this is similar to safecontractor but was told if we didnt have it then we would loose a contract as they only wanted to deal with firms who had constructionline) IPAF for use of cherrypickers, PASMA for scaffolding also training certificates in carpet cleaning, graffiti removal and also IOSH working safely so as you can see i am not against training.
   The government keep promising to reduce red tape for busineses and i strongly feel all the above accreditations are very time consuming to implement.
i think general principles of health and safety should be taught at the last year of school where pupils are given a sort of passport for safety which would prepare them for the workplace this could cover general principles such as manual handling, work at height etc this would free employers to only be responsible for training in task specific operations.
  What are others thoughts on this
   

Trevor Just for the record we don’t make half of the figure quoted

We fund all material
Develop training courses
Cover all travelling
Cover wages for full time assessors and trainers
Pay for training rooms
Refreshments
Staff to book and administrate
All assessors maintain CPD training ourselves throughout our careers

When we spoke at Windex you advised us you had a change of heart and during my seminar said I was right the industry needs change and window cleaners to become more professional?

I agree with your other points

I am not sure your beef all the time with the Level 2
I clearly have seen the benefits it has given to companies.

If you really want something to campaign against why don’t you lobby insurance companies to start to recognise the efforts made by companies like you and for all the companies who reduce risk liability through good training to reduce insurance premiums? “Just a thought mate”

 

 it is not a beef against level 2 but against all the training courses and accreditation that we are told we need when most of the info on the courses is generic anyway, also you admitted yourself at windex that the majority of ones who took the course soon reverted back to how they did things previously anyway, as for costs that is your business and you have to make a profit which i am not against but dont expect me to believe you are offering these courses just for our own wellbeing and to improve our business and safety you are in it to make money the same as i am in window cleaning to make money, i would rather the government put funding into having public buildings cleaned properly and more often rather than into these courses but that is my view because i am a cleaner obviously you see it another way.

Trevor I dont agree with your comments

I put a huge amount of time into non money making work
I spent Two years putting time into the FWC no cost or expenses
I take calls from past NVQ candidates and give advice (no cost)
I also help small companies with young start up businesses NO COST

What you may find of intrest is we generate as little as 2% of learners from any activity on Clean It Up and we can fill these courses with commercial contacts

I sincerely.... believe we need to attract window cleaners on the forum as part of improving the industry

Last post on this Andy
 

[trevor perry]

i had a post removed earlier which wasnt anti the NVQ course but highlighted the number of courses and accreditations that we are told we need to improve our business, i am not against training but the majority of the courses cover much the same material and are pretty costly if sending a few employees on them. In andrew willis post he mentions the courses are government funded but in reallity we are still paying for them through our taxes and in the economic climate we are in i think the money could be better spent. One person claimed training43 recieved £1300 per candidate from the government i dont know if there is any truth in this claim but if it is true then i think the funding should be stopped.
     in my experience i have also found that many who take these courses fail to carry out the guidance when back in the workplace,courses such as IPAF give you a licence to drive a 150ft cherrypicker with only a one day course that includes about 30 minutes practical experience this i feel is far from adequate training.
  our firm has Safecontractor accreditation, Constructionline (this is similar to safecontractor but was told if we didnt have it then we would loose a contract as they only wanted to deal with firms who had constructionline) IPAF for use of cherrypickers, PASMA for scaffolding also training certificates in carpet cleaning, graffiti removal and also IOSH working safely so as you can see i am not against training.
   The government keep promising to reduce red tape for busineses and i strongly feel all the above accreditations are very time consuming to implement.
i think general principles of health and safety should be taught at the last year of school where pupils are given a sort of passport for safety which would prepare them for the workplace this could cover general principles such as manual handling, work at height etc this would free employers to only be responsible for training in task specific operations.
  What are others thoughts on this
   

Trevor Just for the record we don’t make half of the figure quoted

We fund all material
Develop training courses
Cover all travelling
Cover wages for full time assessors and trainers
Pay for training rooms
Refreshments
Staff to book and administrate
All assessors maintain CPD training ourselves throughout our careers

When we spoke at Windex you advised us you had a change of heart and during my seminar said I was right the industry needs change and window cleaners to become more professional?

I agree with your other points

I am not sure your beef all the time with the Level 2
I clearly have seen the benefits it has given to companies.

If you really want something to campaign against why don’t you lobby insurance companies to start to recognise the efforts made by companies like you and for all the companies who reduce risk liability through good training to reduce insurance premiums? “Just a thought mate”

 

 it is not a beef against level 2 but against all the training courses and accreditation that we are told we need when most of the info on the courses is generic anyway, also you admitted yourself at windex that the majority of ones who took the course soon reverted back to how they did things previously anyway, as for costs that is your business and you have to make a profit which i am not against but dont expect me to believe you are offering these courses just for our own wellbeing and to improve our business and safety you are in it to make money the same as i am in window cleaning to make money, i would rather the government put funding into having public buildings cleaned properly and more often rather than into these courses but that is my view because i am a cleaner obviously you see it another way.

Trevor I dont agree with your comments

I put a huge amount of time into non money making work
I spent Two years putting time into the FWC no cost or expenses
I take calls from past NVQ candidates and give advice (no cost)
I also help small companies with young start up businesses NO COST

What you may find of intrest is we generate as little as 2% of learners from any activity on Clean It Up and we can fill these courses with commercial contacts

I sincerely.... believe we need to attract window cleaners on the forum as part of improving the industry

Last post on this Andy
 

 i also put a lot of time into non money making work dealing with risk assessments methods of work training of employees etc as it is needed to keep my business running the same as the above work you do helps generate work for your business.
  There is no doubt about it andrew you are very knowledgable in safe work practices and ways in which firms can protect themselves by keeping employees safe and not being liable for injury claims it is also good that you are from a window cleaning background so you understand the issues we face.
  I stand by my beliefs that your main purpose is to make money and not the welfare of us window cleaners the reason i say this is that your posts on this forum only show up just before a cleaning show where no doubt you will be selling the training programs you offer, where was you with your expert health and safety knowledge during the freezing weather before christmas when lots of the discussions on here where to do with whether it was safe to work in those conditions and what precautions we should be taking, where was your posts on whether it was safe and legal to carry gas for hot water fed pole systems and finally where was your free advice on whether it is safe and legal to fit electric element heaters into wfp tanks i am sure with your expertise you could of put some of these matters to rest, are any of these issues covered on your NVQ as in winter these are the issues that effect us cleaners.

[windiewasher]

i think its disgusting that people are cashing in on this,sick of seeing these boring city and guilds posts everyday.If someone is making money and advertising on here i think its very wrong!
this goverment should stop funding worthless courses like this,its not a industry,its about cleaning windows ffs!its not life and death its about getting bird dung off glass!
end of!!!!!!!
 

[John drake]

i think its disgusting that people are cashing in on this,sick of seeing these boring city and guilds posts everyday.If someone is making money and advertising on here i think its very wrong!
this goverment should stop funding worthless courses like this,its not a industry,its about cleaning windows ffs!its not life and death its about getting bird dung off glass!
end of!!!!!!!
 

You are RIGHT

[matt1980]

glad 2 see some off u fellow window cleaners have realised about the fake,im jus wondering the fellow organising these courses is actually a tutor or a professor 

[Gav Camm lammy 283]

i think this should be encouraged
qualifications for us window cleaners
26yrs on the glass n always willing to learn 

[ronnie paton]

i believe it does help gain new contracts, i dont ask my customers/clients if this helped them choose but it cant do no harm............can it

[Gav Camm lammy 283]

not knocking ipaf or whatever but i know
very able cherry picker drivers with years of exp
but no ticket liscense so cant get the work
i also know loadsa lads with tickets than i wouldnt get in with 

[david willis]

i had a post removed earlier which wasnt anti the NVQ course but highlighted the number of courses and accreditations that we are told we need to improve our business, i am not against training but the majority of the courses cover much the same material and are pretty costly if sending a few employees on them. In andrew willis post he mentions the courses are government funded but in reallity we are still paying for them through our taxes and in the economic climate we are in i think the money could be better spent. One person claimed training43 recieved £1300 per candidate from the government i dont know if there is any truth in this claim but if it is true then i think the funding should be stopped.
     in my experience i have also found that many who take these courses fail to carry out the guidance when back in the workplace,courses such as IPAF give you a licence to drive a 150ft cherrypicker with only a one day course that includes about 30 minutes practical experience this i feel is far from adequate training.
  our firm has Safecontractor accreditation, Constructionline (this is similar to safecontractor but was told if we didnt have it then we would loose a contract as they only wanted to deal with firms who had constructionline) IPAF for use of cherrypickers, PASMA for scaffolding also training certificates in carpet cleaning, graffiti removal and also IOSH working safely so as you can see i am not against training.
   The government keep promising to reduce red tape for busineses and i strongly feel all the above accreditations are very time consuming to implement.
i think general principles of health and safety should be taught at the last year of school where pupils are given a sort of passport for safety which would prepare them for the workplace this could cover general principles such as manual handling, work at height etc this would free employers to only be responsible for training in task specific operations.
  What are others thoughts on this
   

Trevor Just for the record we don’t make half of the figure quoted

We fund all material
Develop training courses
Cover all travelling
Cover wages for full time assessors and trainers
Pay for training rooms
Refreshments
Staff to book and administrate
All assessors maintain CPD training ourselves throughout our careers

When we spoke at Windex you advised us you had a change of heart and during my seminar said I was right the industry needs change and window cleaners to become more professional?

I agree with your other points

I am not sure your beef all the time with the Level 2
I clearly have seen the benefits it has given to companies.

If you really want something to campaign against why don’t you lobby insurance companies to start to recognise the efforts made by companies like you and for all the companies who reduce risk liability through good training to reduce insurance premiums? “Just a thought mate”

 

 it is not a beef against level 2 but against all the training courses and accreditation that we are told we need when most of the info on the courses is generic anyway, also you admitted yourself at windex that the majority of ones who took the course soon reverted back to how they did things previously anyway, as for costs that is your business and you have to make a profit which i am not against but dont expect me to believe you are offering these courses just for our own wellbeing and to improve our business and safety you are in it to make money the same as i am in window cleaning to make money, i would rather the government put funding into having public buildings cleaned properly and more often rather than into these courses but that is my view because i am a cleaner obviously you see it another way.

Trevor I dont agree with your comments

I put a huge amount of time into non money making work
I spent Two years putting time into the FWC no cost or expenses
I take calls from past NVQ candidates and give advice (no cost)
I also help small companies with young start up businesses NO COST

What you may find of intrest is we generate as little as 2% of learners from any activity on Clean It Up and we can fill these courses with commercial contacts

I sincerely.... believe we need to attract window cleaners on the forum as part of improving the industry

Last post on this Andy
 

 i also put a lot of time into non money making work dealing with risk assessments methods of work training of employees etc as it is needed to keep my business running the same as the above work you do helps generate work for your business.
  There is no doubt about it andrew you are very knowledgable in safe work practices and ways in which firms can protect themselves by keeping employees safe and not being liable for injury claims it is also good that you are from a window cleaning background so you understand the issues we face.
  I stand by my beliefs that your main purpose is to make money and not the welfare of us window cleaners the reason i say this is that your posts on this forum only show up just before a cleaning show where no doubt you will be selling the training programs you offer, where was you with your expert health and safety knowledge during the freezing weather before christmas when lots of the discussions on here where to do with whether it was safe to work in those conditions and what precautions we should be taking, where was your posts on whether it was safe and legal to carry gas for hot water fed pole systems and finally where was your free advice on whether it is safe and legal to fit electric element heaters into wfp tanks i am sure with your expertise you could of put some of these matters to rest, are any of these issues covered on your NVQ as in winter these are the issues that effect us cleaners.

Trevor

From Andy’s previous post he is unlikely to respond so I will just clear up a couple of points if I may
Firstly you can’t compare your activity put in against the free time we supply with learners over and above the contractual commitment we have to supply the City and Guilds
Yours is a statutory duty to your employees
Secondly we have not posted anything online about the City and Guilds funding since if I can recall middle of last year simply because we had sufficient learners to fill that funding contract and due to the coalition government changes and the withdrawal of Train to Gain (Jan)  there was no funding available. And let’s be fair window cleaners “especially some of the forum window users are unlikely to pay for the course and qualification if they are not prepared to take it at no cost!!!!
We have just started to post information this month as we have secured a different source of funding. Starts February so your comment about the show is simply a coincidence. IMPACT43 are not attending the cleaning show with a stand this year, but will be on the South Thames college stand representing the window cleaning industry “interest for all window cleaning companies that want to secure funding and complete this course.
Forum members are quite right it’s not for everyone, however if you are a commercial cleaning company and operating at the highest level on many of the country’s leading property portfolio you will be more than aware that managing agents across the UK are now making this a mandatory requirement for window cleaners on their buildings, so them not us are recognising the benefits of the qualification.
I believe what is required on the forum is a separate section for commercial window cleaners and maybe run as FWC Federation forum where only members can go online and have a panel of individuals that represent different areas of the industry who could accurately answer questions.
The problem you have at the moment “and I am sorry to have to be blunt about this is we have some real idiots on here talking complete rubbish at times and I would not want to take on board anything they have to comment on. But again if you just want some light hearted banter which at times makes me laugh then you have something for everyone
So David Morris and the team. Why don’t you approach the FWC and suggest this and let’s have a section for professional window cleaners please

[trevor perry]

Thanks for the reply david that does clear up some of the issues i raised and they very well could be coincidental, from reading your post i am not certain if you are calling me an idiot which  if you are then i object very strongly all my posts have been on how we are swamped with different courses and accreditations, i would love one course that covered IPAF scaffolding manual handling, ladder use and all othe areas of legislation that effect us window cleaners if we could have one course that was nationally recognised at a realistic cost then this would deffinately be a good thing maybe this is something training 43 could look into.
  i run a business with 28 full time staff and a couple of part timers our business has been established 51 years in april and i have run some very large window cleaning contracts over the years me myself have been windowcleanig for nearly thirty years and have experience in all areas ie cradlework and bosum chair both electric and manual, even used to use the old block and tackle method before absailing  i have used 60ft ladders when they where legal and was one of only a few who could carry one of these fully extended we now use WFP like most commercial windowcleaners, i no longer do absailing as i think the IRATA training and experience needed to get further levels is just not cost effective. The majority of our work now is not windowcleaning although we still do quite a bit, over the years i have seen the training and legislation industry grow and grow and it was certainly needed as our job of old was certainly way to dangerous but it is now at a stage where the legislation and training costs are a real burden  to small businesses and even if government funded are a major cost to society during a economic time when thousands are loosing their jobs  and this is what my posts have been saying. If your comment on idiot was referring to me then i have been a very successfull idiot.
 I certainly dont want any posts on here to become personal so like andrew i wont post on this subject again if you want any info on what i feel would be good to include in a single course and the cost i feel would be realistic it would be great to talk to you about it, if other commercial cleaners could offer you the same info maybe training43 could offer something that would vastly improve our industry.
 All the best Trevor

[david willis]

Thanks for the reply david that does clear up some of the issues i raised and they very well could be coincidental, from reading your post i am not certain if you are calling me an idiot which  if you are then i object very strongly all my posts have been on how we are swamped with different courses and accreditations, i would love one course that covered IPAF scaffolding manual handling, ladder use and all othe areas of legislation that effect us window cleaners if we could have one course that was nationally recognised at a realistic cost then this would deffinately be a good thing maybe this is something training 43 could look into.
  i run a business with 28 full time staff and a couple of part timers our business has been established 51 years in april and i have run some very large window cleaning contracts over the years me myself have been windowcleanig for nearly thirty years and have experience in all areas ie cradlework and bosum chair both electric and manual, even used to use the old block and tackle method before absailing  i have used 60ft ladders when they where legal and was one of only a few who could carry one of these fully extended we now use WFP like most commercial windowcleaners, i no longer do absailing as i think the IRATA training and experience needed to get further levels is just not cost effective. The majority of our work now is not windowcleaning although we still do quite a bit, over the years i have seen the training and legislation industry grow and grow and it was certainly needed as our job of old was certainly way to dangerous but it is now at a stage where the legislation and training costs are a real burden  to small businesses and even if government funded are a major cost to society during a economic time when thousands are loosing their jobs  and this is what my posts have been saying. If your comment on idiot was referring to me then i have been a very successfull idiot.
 I certainly dont want any posts on here to become personal so like andrew i wont post on this subject again if you want any info on what i feel would be good to include in a single course and the cost i feel would be realistic it would be great to talk to you about it, if other commercial cleaners could offer you the same info maybe training43 could offer something that would vastly improve our industry.
 All the best Trevor

Can confirm the comment re Idiot not a reference to you Regards David

   

[Poles R Us]

RIP OFF, money for nothing bullpoo city and guilds

[STEVE-UK]

I may i have picked up a contract that requires constructionline, how long does it take to be certified and how does the paper work compare to safe contractor

[trevor perry]

I may i have picked up a contract that requires constructionline, how long does it take to be certified and how does the paper work compare to safe contractor

it can take a few weeks, you first decide which categorys of work you want to register under then you have to provide references for each category of work ,they then require methods of work and risk assessments etc just like safecontractor

[STEVE-UK]

Ok thanks trevor