[Steve Chapman]

We are constantly badgered to provide cleaners for office cleaning and have recently been offered a

regular contract that i am considering taking on,

My question is, is it possible to be an agent for this type of work and sub the work out to other

cleaners or will i have to employ them directly.

To be honest I want to avoid becoming an employer but will if I have to but would rather just sub it and

do the invoicing and paper work etc.

Whats your thoughts ?

Regards
Stever

[ianharper]

Steve

One of the biggest moments in my working life was when i found out how you make money this way. if you set up systems then it can work. you cant just take the money. I had all my staff on self employed on a contact that they signed say that they where reasonable for tax and NI. this came from my background as a manager in car valeting. these are used all the time and you will find all the main UK firms use them.

Having said that, staff turn over was the reason i gave it up. as I spent about £400 training each person and with finding them it was a pain and we had about 2 staff leave every 8 wks on average. Times have changed and now more and more people are looking for part time work so it might be worth it.

Systems are key here. checking is very, very important and it also keeps you in both the clients and staffs mind. its when they dont see you that thought of cutting out the middle man creep in. I had a client contact5 for this as well say they could not employ any staff for up to six mths after end of contact or them leaving.

The benefit of all this that we all have the same amount of time each day its how much we earn each hour that makes the difference in life.

good luck

Respect

Ian Harper

[Steve Chapman]

Thanks for the reply Ian,

I am very hands on with work any how so i dont think that will be a problem.

How does self employed basis stand with the Inland Revenue though, will they not stipulate they must be employed or will the contract suffice for that ?

Do you have a contract I can take a peek at 

Regards
Steve

[Andrew Briscoe]

I got into contract cleaning by accident really about 6 years ago.
It is as Ian says hard work keeping on top of staff, they national
average employment time for a cleaner is 3 months, so you will always
be hiring and training.
I have staff on 40-30-20- and 16 hours shifts weekly.
Day starts at 5 and can finish as late as 9pm, usually 5am -12,  4pm till 8pm
so it can be a long day.
We are up about 95 % on this time last jan, so its looking good, we are taking on contracts all the time, starting another in 3 weeks, so another 2 staff req.

Once i get another couple of contracts, it will be unmanegable by myself,
and will be taking on a manager to shed some of my work load,
and spend more time with my 9 month old son.

A lot will say this is a lot of work, but it will help me retire earlier,
and will be a lot more saleable than a second hand van and truckmount. 

Andrew

[M.Acorn]

My wife and bro in law ran a very successful cleaning company in Cambridge,they were turning over 120k + after 3 years,that was when the revenue turned round and said that the 20 odd staff you have on your books should be employed by you !!
It went downhill from there,they went through and picked out their best contracts,and sold the rest on,there is very good money to be had..

[Steve Chapman]

Thats the part that bothers me,  I was told some years ago that if the workers solely work for you then

they now have to be employed but if they work for several people then they can be used as

subcontractors,  i wonder if this is still the case or as Ian has stated just getting them to sign a contract

saying they are self employed is enough to satisfy the Revenue that alls above board. Cant see the

problem myself as long as IS know they are working and paying tax.

Regards
Steve

[Andrew Briscoe]

All my staff are employed by me , i dont have a problem with this,
at the end of the day they are just an overhead, along with my 5 vans etc
and should be costed into the price.
I often win contracts when i know i have gone in at the highest price,
2 things gain me the contract, well 3, but third is my charm.  
If i can double my turnover again in next 2 years as last year i could retire in 7 year, or at least semi retire.

Andrew

[ianharper]

Andrew

devil makes work for idea hands. mine was the ladies 

Steve

The reason the nationals get away with it is that is casual type work and they dont work at the same place of work (but they do) and with staff turn over you will never have many that do. One company i worked for had a 10 million turn over and they got away with it.

Its like most things when asked the question its how you answer it with the tax man or old bill.

Respect

Ian Harper

[Ian Gourlay]

Andrew

Were you experienced in Office Cleaning or did you just suck it and see.

[Andrew Briscoe]

Andrew

Were you experienced in Office Cleaning or did you just suck it and see.

No. Just got into it by accident, its hard work, not for everyone.

[Ian Gourlay]

well done I hope that does not sound patronising.

But you went for it

[Neil Williams]

just getting them to sign a contract
saying they are self employed is enough to satisfy the Revenue that alls above board.

Please don't try that Steve because that all things IR it can be backdated if you have an inspection, or there's an accident at work etc etc.
I believe if you keep each individual below something like 16 hours/week then you can get around the NI issues, but you'll still need insurance to cover the number of people you have at any particular site.
Part timers are still entitled to holiday pay/time off so you'll need to figure that into any contracts you get, because you'll be covering it.

[fenman]

It will be almost impossible to class any cleaner as self employed and lets face it they will want to be employed, with all the benefits and no hassle that comes with being employed.
The key indicators are:
Do they work only or mainly for you.
Do they work under your instruction and at a time and place set by you.
Do they provide their own materials, insurance, transport, invoices etc.
Do they have to correct poor work in their own time and at their expense.
Do they work regular set hours for an hourly rate.

Anything that you get them to sign regarding paying their own tax etc. is totally meaningless as far as the taxman is concerned and they will come after you for all taxes and NI owed by your so called self employed workers going back years.

[garyj]

Fenman is right!

I had a contract cleaning compnay for nearly 10 years with 50 staff and NEVER again.

Don't forget you will be financing the cleaning for up to 3 months, staff will expect to get paid every 2-4 weeks. Staff turnover is a huge problem but as Ian said this should be better now.
You will need a lot of H&S stuff, CoSHH method statements and the like.

[M.Acorn]

It will be almost impossible to class any cleaner as self employed and lets face it they will want to be employed, with all the benefits and no hassle that comes with being employed.
The key indicators are:
Do they work only or mainly for you.
Do they work under your instruction and at a time and place set by you.
Do they provide their own materials, insurance, transport, invoices etc.
Do they have to correct poor work in their own time and at their expense.
Do they work regular set hours for an hourly rate.

Anything that you get them to sign regarding paying their own tax etc. is totally meaningless as far as the taxman is concerned and they will come after you for all taxes and NI owed by your so called self employed workers going back years.

Yes !! My wife went to the inland revenue and got them too look through their business plan,which they gave them the go ahead for,3 years later they did a review,and said they should be employers,their business changed overnight

[Steve Chapman]

A mixed bag of replies then 

I understand what has been said, but there must be circumstances where you can sub the work otherwise subcontracting wouldnt exist 

Surely if a person is already self employed and wishes to do some work for me on a regular basis then thats not breaking any rules ?

Steve

[Neil Williams]

Surely if a person is already self employed and wishes to do some work for me on a regular basis then thats not breaking any rules ?

Do they work only or mainly for you. Self employed
Do they work under your instruction and at a time and place set by you. Employed
Do they provide their own materials, insurance, transport, invoices etc. Self Employed
Do they have to correct poor work in their own time and at their expense. Self employed
Do they work regular set hours for an hourly rate. If set by the contractor then employed
Even if registered S/E but do work for one person Employed

The building trade came a cropper some years back. The actual builders had been self employed contracting to the main contractor (and that had been fine for years) but the IR with new laws decreed that where these builders had been working on one site or sites for the same contractor for a long enough period....they were employed by the contractor.

Steve, check with the FSB if you're a member or even the IR directly, they'll tell you what is what today.

[Steve Chapman]

I hear what you saying Neil and sort of know the answer to the question really, just brainstorming some ideas to see if I thought of all angles,

I've had discussions with Inland Revenue before and not really to help you just themselves, 

May phone Fsb though as they normally have a different angle on things ,

If there's a way to go subbing then I will tailor things that way !

Steve

[Len Gribble]

Set them up as a franchise and you as the franchisor you get paid and in time pay them

[Steve Chapman]

That's a good idea Len

How do you go about it, is there a formal process you have to go through?

Steve