[Sunshine/Cleaning]

You obviously have it worked out Lee, well done. 

I guess without your profit and loss accounts and your round books some will never be convinced.

I guess you won't make those availiable?  :

[Matthew Bateman]

I have no intention Lee of getting into an arguement, just questioning the figures. No need to argue over it.

I have always felt very strongly about the levels people pay their staff, particularly compared to what they COULD still reasonably pay them AFTER costs and a allowing for a REASONABLE percentage for the owner. Theres a well defined line between a fair days pay for a fair days work and exploitation. Lots of the figures quoted on here are well within the exploitation side of the line.

A lot of people seem to pay their staff a pittance and additionally reserve the right to treat them with contempt.

[Steve CM]

I would hope that was the case Lee, I wouldnt expect anything less from a business that expects performance from its staff.

But as has already been said, if your jobs are actually worth to your business 4 times what the guys are getting paid you are in SERIOUS danger of being undercut. The figures dont add up whichever way you look at it Lee, thats all Im saying.

I would say 25% is lower than what i do but not by much. The figures do stack up. i'm not sure about 80k per employee but i'm not ruling it out either. Sometimes workers don't want the hassle of running a business on thier own. Its not easy, my guys see the stress o go through sometimes and i know one for sure doesn't or couldn't do that kind of aggro and to build a profitable business is bloody hard work. You need to re-invest all the time so to think that your creaming 75% pure profit is not realistic. i don't know the exact figures but what i do know is that with this example its similar to how i operate and its not as straight forward as some would like to believe.

[darren clarke]

to all these paying 20g a year,  u got any jobs going?

[Lee Pryor]

blue monkey I love that picture!!!!

Matt 20k a year is not exploitation mate, I once worked in a job for 20k and I can tell you right now it was alot harder work with more responsibilty than any of my staff have, on top of that there are little things along the way that sweeten their deal.

there is no upper limit to their days pay, so if we jet wash a £1000 driveway, and we do, then there earning a good wage.

they get bonuses for picking up work on the job, or even outside of work through talking to people ect.

they keep any tips, im sure most do that.

we go out once a month on lads days out on the company for which they still get paid a days wage.

They have sick and holiday pay, I had none of that when I worked on my own.

to think that I pocket everything else is very small minded, just what do you think it costs to develop and run a business like mine???

And even if I did pay myself that much, im the one who started from nothing, on my own, no forum, no buying rounds, no advice, no wfp system, nothing but hard work and back to back 7 day weeks. I have always seen this as a business never just a job and I have lived and breathed it from day one, always trying to have the good idears that made my business grow and the balls to put them into practise Im not saying I know it all or mines the best, but those figures are the truth, they do stack up and just because other wc business dont generate that does not mean mine doesnt.

Speaking of which im at it yet again and will be off to a meeting with the local radio station in 45 min regarding my other little project for next year.

[formb]

How many fat cat window cleaners do you think there are "exploiting staff"?

This aint china, there is a minimum wage and all my staff get more than that.

Exploitation of workers is in fact, a crime, and as such any unsubstantiated accusations of worker exploitation may be deemed as slanderous.

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

I guess if some on here ran Harrods they would want to give their staff a % of the profits and leave themselves with a working wage.

£20k is more than some make. For example the guy at our post office with 30 years experience gets less than £7ph from the franchise that runs the PO. I was embarassed when he told me, I'd just done a £200 + day.

OMB's have it good as do owners who have staff. On £20k most of the staff have it good as well. I imagine if they have new vans and top of the range equipment they figure they couldn't afford to do that on their own.

If the self employed OMB's work out the figure on their tax return rather than turnover they will have a better idea of what is a good wage. Add to that the staff have no responcibilities after 5pm and I imagine for many of them they dont have the 20 years experience that, for example, I do.

Some obviously know how to run a business that makes moneywith staff, some can make it for themselves but dont understand the economics of making money with staff. I put myself in the latter group.

[Matthew Bateman]

Lee how many guys do you employ, on the tools?


Form B trying to make out that you pay more than the minimum wage raises you above the level of exploitation doesnt wash. Its a dreadfully dreadfully low level of income to the point that it is insulting.

[Matthew Bateman]

and as such any unsubstantiated accusations of worker exploitation may be deemed as slanderous.

So sue me.

[Lee Pryor]

I would prefere to not say how many people I employ as that with my figures gives to much away as to my income and business size, which I have chosen to not talk about on this forum in the past as it invites the wrong kind of conversation.

This thread was about % pay to staff and by giving my experience of that has turned into something else.

Needless to say I no longer work on the tools but full time in my office/unit where i am right now, I would say we are the market leading residential window cleaner in the areas we cover and I make a good living. enough said.

[trevor perry]

lee it obviously works for you in your area and if you are paying 20g a year to your staff that is a fair wage but i still think your prices must be very high to expect each man to cover 80 grands worth of work a year as where i am based that would be impossible to achieve hence my percentage wage to employee being much higher.

[Lee Pryor]

there are so many things that are unique to my business, and the pricing is one of them, as I have said our average residential price is £18-22, do 13-17 of those a day, 5 days out of 7 and it soon adds up to exactly what I have said. dont forget we do loads of con roofs, facia, gutters, jet washing year round also, all at much higher rates per hour.

[formb]

Lee how many guys do you employ, on the tools?


Form B trying to make out that you pay more than the minimum wage raises you above the level of exploitation doesnt wash. Its a dreadfully dreadfully low level of income to the point that it is insulting.

How on earth would you know that?

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

Lee how many guys do you employ, on the tools?


Form B trying to make out that you pay more than the minimum wage raises you above the level of exploitation doesnt wash. Its a dreadfully dreadfully low level of income to the point that it is insulting.

Are you Ewan? £20k is not insulting, read back, many experienced salaried workers would be delighted.

you really should get out more

[formb]

Lee how many guys do you employ, on the tools?


Form B trying to make out that you pay more than the minimum wage raises you above the level of exploitation doesnt wash. Its a dreadfully dreadfully low level of income to the point that it is insulting.

Are you Ewan? £20k is not insulting, read back, many experienced salaried workers would be delighted.

you really should get out more

 

Are you Ewan in disguise?

[Matthew Bateman]

Where did I say 20K was insulting? I said paying your staff 25% is an insult. And I still believe it is.

No Im not Ewan, I have a website, feel free to take a look, he hasnt apparently.

[formb]

Nice site Ewan.

Very professional.

[formb]

Not sure:

http://www.oakleywindowcleaning.co.uk/payments.htm

is a good idea when you consider:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7174760.stm

Just a thought.

[Perfect Windows]

Perhaps this is relevant to this dicussion.  I posted it some time ago in another thread.  Remember that it includes everyone in work in the UK, so North and South, qualified and unqualified and is from the Office for National Statistics:

For the tax year ending 5 April 2009 the median gross annual earnings for full-time employees were £25,800... The median gross annual earnings for men were £28,300 (median:half of people were below that figure, half above).

Vin

[Matthew Bateman]

Nice site Ewan.

Very professional.

Thanks I did iit myself, which is understandable I guess considering your comments about it 

Its Matt by the way, its on the site. 

I think that is relevant Perfect, thanks