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mark m

  • Posts: 1069
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2010, 12:25:22 am »
Clues are given in here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporation


if i read the whole book i would not get it and
you would not tell me lol

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2010, 12:26:23 am »
It's ladybirds walking across the glass afterwards. They have dirty feet.

mark m

  • Posts: 1069
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2010, 12:29:51 am »

mci services

Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2010, 12:38:31 am »
It's ladybirds walking across the glass afterwards. They have dirty feet.
;D

james44

Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2010, 12:52:10 am »
Quote
My guess Jeff those few drops of water aren’t pure, leaving behind a residue of spots, just like hard water would.

You could be right ewan!

as soon as the pure water hits the dirty windows then it is not pure!

Dave Willis

Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2010, 07:22:07 am »
vinegar, isopropanol, dishwasher rinse aid etc all change the characteristics of water, isopropanol definately does, it reduces the surface tension of water which alters the shape of the water droplets - it flattens them out and in effect makes water 'wetter' I would doubt that any of these change the surface of the glass much.
I wouldn't rush to buy cans of isopropanol though, because you would most likely need 10% of the stuff to make much difference.

Spots at the top? - Probably droplets of dirty water that make it off the frame and stop on the glass?
Spots at the bottom? Probably dirty water that has run the full length of the window but doesn't have enough umpf to get right off the glass.
Spots in the middle? - not pure enough water or insufficient scrubbing/rinsing, or windy weather blowing dust back on.

Then of coure there are the frames/paint that just don't agree with the whole wfp method at all.  ;D

Frankybadboy

  • Posts: 9024
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2010, 09:52:02 am »
jeff how do you filter your water.........

do i believe you use rain water..?????????????
It's ladybirds walking across the glass afterwards. They have dirty feet.
;D ;D ;D trust you squeaky

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2010, 12:47:26 pm »
An interesting thread. I have often watched the action of the water on perfectly sheeting glass. I don't know if it's the surface tension, but there is a tidy thickness of water on there. You can easily overtake the water as it flows down when your rinsing.
In affect you are rinsing while dirt has not had a chance to run off from higher up the glass.
Try this experiment and you will be surprised.
Clean your van windscreen and it sheets perfectly, you think it's dry until you try and drive a few hundred yards without the wipers on, you will soon see just how much water is still on there.
That film of water on sheeting glass seems to come off in layers, the top layer comes off pretty quickly, but if you stand and watch it their is a slower moving layer just underneath it.
As for those spots at the top of the pain, I would have thought that Jeff using his over the top jets would be less prone to it, but the source of the spots has to be dirt from the top of the frame. When the jet of water hits the glass it spreads out in all directions, so when rinsing the top of the pane some of that water hits the frame. As we come down the glass we can angle the brush a bit more so the jet is facing slightly downwards pushing the dirt towards the bottom.
I have tried and still am using jets on stalks and this has made a difference.
With the jets being in contact with the glass there is less inclination for the water to bounce back, and onto the top of the frame.
I do a job once a month inside and out, I had a Bentley brush for the tops with jets on stalks, I used the Superlite brush with standard jets on my small pole for the bottoms.
The tops were almost perfect whilst some of the bottoms had spots near the top of the frame.
I think that the spots are caused by soluble dirts that contaminates the water, and as most sheeting glass will bead at the edges as it dries this is where it collects.
As the glass dries the beads get smaller and smaller, the surface tension dragging the dirt with them. Eventually the bead dries leaving a spot.
I'm no scientist, and I'm only relating my own observations. My theory could be entirely wrong

Jeff Brimble

  • Posts: 4347
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2010, 03:04:43 pm »
jeff how do you filter your water.........

do i believe you use rain water..?????????????

Quote

000tds Rain,RO/DI or even Distilled

Jeff Brimble

  • Posts: 4347
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2010, 03:15:42 pm »
An interesting thread. I have often watched the action of the water on perfectly sheeting glass. I don't know if it's the surface tension, but there is a tidy thickness of water on there. You can easily overtake the water as it flows down when your rinsing.
In affect you are rinsing while dirt has not had a chance to run off from higher up the glass.
Try this experiment and you will be surprised.
Clean your van windscreen and it sheets perfectly, you think it's dry until you try and drive a few hundred yards without the wipers on, you will soon see just how much water is still on there.
That film of water on sheeting glass seems to come off in layers, the top layer comes off pretty quickly, but if you stand and watch it their is a slower moving layer just underneath it.
As for those spots at the top of the pain, I would have thought that Jeff using his over the top jets would be less prone to it, but the source of the spots has to be dirt from the top of the frame. When the jet of water hits the glass it spreads out in all directions, so when rinsing the top of the pane some of that water hits the frame. As we come down the glass we can angle the brush a bit more so the jet is facing slightly downwards pushing the dirt towards the bottom.
I have tried and still am using jets on stalks and this has made a difference.
With the jets being in contact with the glass there is less inclination for the water to bounce back, and onto the top of the frame.
I do a job once a month inside and out, I had a Bentley brush for the tops with jets on stalks, I used the Superlite brush with standard jets on my small pole for the bottoms.
The tops were almost perfect whilst some of the bottoms had spots near the top of the frame.
I think that the spots are caused by soluble dirts that contaminates the water, and as most sheeting glass will bead at the edges as it dries this is where it collects.
As the glass dries the beads get smaller and smaller, the surface tension dragging the dirt with them. Eventually the bead dries leaving a spot.
I'm no scientist, and I'm only relating my own observations. My theory could be entirely wrong
Maybe surface tension on sheeting glass is less so the water sheets easier wheras on beading glass, the glass has been waterproofed with a polish or coating providing a resistance to gravity to prevent the water from flattening, silicon Dioxide aka self clean coating also does this trick. I found that cleaning within 1"-2" from the top thus not touching the frames also left spots 3-4" down. You can see the action on perfectly sheeting glass by watching for the "rainbow effect" as the water thins downwards under gravity.

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2010, 05:31:41 pm »
Wow dai, ultimately spotting is mainly caused by dirt in water that is left on the glass.

Remove the dirt from the window and you will remove any possible spotting.

True enough Ewan, do you ever have spotting?

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2010, 06:10:18 pm »
Wow dai, ultimately spotting is mainly caused by dirt in water that is left on the glass.

Remove the dirt from the window and you will remove any possible spotting.


Stating the obvious just a little! I think we all know this & we all know our water is pure. ::)

I think the original debate is a bit deeper & about what causes our water to become contaminated- which can be many & varied factors. ;)

clearlyclean

  • Posts: 477
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2010, 06:37:26 pm »
maybe the water container has been contaminated when you get low on water,when the container is full tank dilutes these or sediment is at the bottom.

luther1

  • Posts: 1071
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2010, 07:04:13 pm »
I clean the odd new build and the stickers on the glass (Pilkington K) state that the pane has to be fitted the correct way round otherwise the correct insulation factors won't apply. There is always the odd pane that has been fitted the wrong way round and my brush drags on it,almost sticks to it,and come up rubbish.

 How long does pure water,once exposed to the elements,return to its impure state? This would then explain why the glass looks like its been cleaned straight from the tap.

cat9921

  • Posts: 669
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2010, 08:01:22 am »
Sorry to say this but this about surface tension has nothing to do with it  ::)

If you do not believe me just sellotape the top of the frame were it meets the glass and then go over it with the wash system and you will have a window that dries perfectly clear  ;D

If it was the surface tension then it would spot regardless of the tape or not ......

for those that are having problems with spotting then see my Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjw0jlgGzFQ

it will help  ;)

Adders

Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2010, 09:19:14 am »
Surface tension affects, amongst other things, droplets staying put instead of running down and their size and shape.So a droplet on the top edge could run down later.Ergo it does have a bearing.

cat9921

  • Posts: 669
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2010, 01:43:30 pm »
Surface tension affects, amongst other things, droplets staying put instead of running down and their size and shape.So a droplet on the top edge could run down later.Ergo it does have a bearing.


Yes but that does not cause spotting  ::) ... If that was the case then you would still get spotting if you put tape across the top of the glass where the frame meets it .... But if you try it you will find that because the water is not getting contaminated by the frame then there is no spots  ::)

The video is proof its still the same water and the same glass that has water tension but trying to avoid the frames that cause the problems
 
 ;)

Adders

Sean Dyer

  • Posts: 2947
Re: Where the spots come from ?
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2010, 04:44:25 pm »
Wow dai, ultimately spotting is mainly caused by dirt in water that is left on the glass.

Remove the dirt from the window and you will remove any possible spotting.

True enough Ewan, do you ever have spotting?

ewan doesnt clean windows :)