[Clive McDonald]

you might be joking mike but that is exactly how i feel. The really nice guys on here work for peanuts, and when you try to give them a leg up they get resentful.

When i read things like i've been a wc fifteen years and i'm saving up for a system, or and i'm going to get rid of all the rubbish.They could do the job for a hundred years, they'd still be skint.

[G Griffin]

 So what`s the basic economics lesson?
 You mean supply and demand? You went all around the houses for that didn`t you  :.
  And in a crude way too.  

[mikecam]

you might be joking mike but that is exactly how i feel. The really nice guys on here work for peanuts, and when you try to give them a leg up they get resentful.

When i read things like i've been a wc fifteen years and i'm saving up for a system, or and i'm going to get rid of all the rubbish.They could do the job for a hundred years, they'd still be skint.

Make no bones about it, a lot of window cleaners customer skills and buisness acumen goes no further than the mantra...."keep other window cleaners out of my area by telling them i've been here for years" and thats the extent of what they know and how they retain their buisness. A lot cannot charge more . simply because of the level of service they provide. I am now WFP and expanding rapidly. Where i am based is heavily 'patched' so its not without its day to day problems! I had yet another fat fella in a T shirt with a red face come and tell me i'm pinching all his work. The stupid fat numpty can't work out why people are dumping him and he's charged a fiver for years and i'm charging £13 for the same job. He thinks its me at fault !!! Its nowt to do with poor him !!! Save the economics lessons for someone who might need them. Where i am no one needs economics lessons, they work on the principle of keep the competition away and charge the most the custy will pay or tolerate for the service you provide, which in my case they seem to be paying no more than a fiver !!! At present anyway.
 Bad day? Yeah !!!

[mikecam]

Charge what you like, dont be influenced by others, some people would spend 1/2 hour to to clean a £15 house, some other window cleaner would charge £5 and do it in 10 mins.

Do the mathes , both ways work.

Customer is happy both ways, one way gets a quality job, second way customer gets cheap job.

Can't see the problem myself.

That's why we have lidl and M&S, both are busy

You're correct.  Different levels of service demand different prices and I didn't mean to mistake the two points.

I should have been clearer.  To use a favourite economics phrase, all othe things being equal anyone charging less than they could for a given level of service is losing out.  In my opinion, plenty of people in our game are doing so.

I do disagree with your point about the time taken being part of the equation; the cost of supply is largely irrelevant, what matters is how much the customer is prepared to pay.  I don't see Mercedes saying a car should cost £60,000 because of the time and materials that go into it.  No, they charge £60,000 because their customers see that as a reasonable price for what they are getting.  The cost of manufacture never comes into it.

Yet, the moment we get gassing, the cost of supply comes up every time in conversations along the lines of "you must be a thief to get £xx per hour" or "I look after my customers by not overcharging".  If the customer pays, no-one is stealing from anyone.

Vin

You’re wrong about the Mercedes car analogy; there is a huge difference between time & materials with a lot of similar products.

The cost of supply is relevant to a window cleaner, for example if your overheads are £400 a month and you service 100 customers each month the cost of service for each customer is £4 so there’s little point in having customers for less than £10 each. Likewise if you have 200 customers a month the cost is then £2 to service each customer, but now you have to factor in the total time element for the extra hundred customers so again there’s no point in charging less than £10. This is just simple division dealing with cost of sales, now all the other elements have to be included to reach your figure that you will be happy with.

I think one of the main issues with pricing is the delusional element of thinking £x amount of money is a lot because it’s often compared with the hourly rate of having a regular job.

Making the comparison with having a job is an accurate way to determine your minimum pricing, as long as you include everything otherwise its pointless.

Ewan, you're something of an enigma. I've never known someone to get such high prices for work and complete it so fast. I'm looking forward to you bringing a book out. I'll be your first customer.

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

It's called 'leaving money on the table' if a customer expects to pay £20 and you charge £10 you leave the other £10 on the table rather than your pocket.

The secret is to find customers who have a higher valuation of your time.

[G Griffin]

 How do you actually know how much a customer is prepared to pay? Does anyone do a supply and demand curve?

[mikecam]

Mikecam Join the FWC if you haven’t already; I don’t see how anybody can complain legitimately about the trade and some of the people who work in it legally or illegally if you don’t even support your own trade association. You can present yourself and your business well, but that’s only for your benefit.

My prices aren’t outrageous; I just think a few on here charge to little, if they can go to the trouble of doing there numbers the price is fair, to the outsider i.e. the public or customers the numbers will appear high. But the window cleaner has a better grasp of what he’s doing, doesn’t he!

I'm a member mate and to be honest i would of been better off making up a logo saying the "United Kingdom Window Cleaners Association Member" and it would carry as much kudos. And i'm not saying your prices are outrageous either. I charge typically at least double any trad cleaners near me and have no probs getting work, either theirs or brand new buisness. Typically i find people are prepared to pay for a service, and the service they do NOT WANT is some one who turns up when they like and knocks for cash when they like. I take a bit longer on my jobs than what appears you do , from your posts, but like you i do get a premium. I ring 'em the day before and all that bollox too !!

[mci services]

can someone clarify what the basic economic lesson is i.e. perfect windows what is your point? you typed a load on what you charge but what is your point and why is everyone else wrong, I am not disagreeing with you but I would like to know how you came up with your policy and what is the thinking behind it

[G Griffin]

can someone clarify what the basic economic lesson is i.e. perfect windows what is your point? you typed a load on what you charge but what is your point and why is everyone else wrong, I am not disagreeing with you but I would like to know how you came up with your policy and what is the thinking behind it

  Economics really all boils down to supply and demand; but that is a very broad area  .
 People are getting a bit snobby about it, saying they know how much to charge. But do they?
  For example- a £20 job,but the customer may be willing to pay more than that. Just because they are charging more than someone else doesn`t mean they have achieved the optimum price. 

[mci services]

can someone clarify what the basic economic lesson is i.e. perfect windows what is your point? you typed a load on what you charge but what is your point and why is everyone else wrong, I am not disagreeing with you but I would like to know how you came up with your policy and what is the thinking behind it

  Economics really all boils down to supply and demand; but that is a very broad area  .
 People are getting a bit snobby about it, saying they know how much to charge. But do they?
  For example- a £20 job,but the customer may be willing to pay more than that. Just because they are charging more than someone else doesn`t mean they have achieved the optimum price. 

yes i know that mate, I am just wondering why perfect windows feels the need to tell us all about it, he started this thread and I would like his insight into why he is right, not that I disagree by the way, I just want to know what his special rule of basic economics is

[Gav Camm lammy 283]

stu e is after all PERFECT WINDOWS
i think theres a clue 

[G Griffin]

can someone clarify what the basic economic lesson is i.e. perfect windows what is your point? you typed a load on what you charge but what is your point and why is everyone else wrong, I am not disagreeing with you but I would like to know how you came up with your policy and what is the thinking behind it

  Economics really all boils down to supply and demand; but that is a very broad area  .
 People are getting a bit snobby about it, saying they know how much to charge. But do they?
  For example- a £20 job,but the customer may be willing to pay more than that. Just because they are charging more than someone else doesn`t mean they have achieved the optimum price. 

yes i know that mate, I am just wondering why perfect windows feels the need to tell us all about it, he started this thread and I would like his insight into why he is right, not that I disagree by the way, I just want to know what his special rule of basic economics is

  Yeah, I know what you mean;what was the lesson? And no mention of the 2 key words of basic economics.
  How many of us really know what the best price to charge is? When we`re talking economics that is  :.   
 

[mark mann]

i guess two types of customer those that want a pucker job and willing to pay a fair price for that and those that just want  cheap job trouble is those cheapy customers still expect a pucker job.

im starting out in recent months and havent got a compact round (expect that will take years) and learning everyday how to price more accurately for myself. i find i feel resentful if i do a job i undercharge on (not dilebarately) i use the pound a window guide but when you have windows that are awkward to get to or have fancy trim that is a dirt trap it all adds time, like when switcihng from everyday pole to longer one more downtime to complete the job. i like to charge a min of ten pound a property i do a good job and believe im always worth more than i charge. i think ten pound min for any property anywhere in the country should base min coz its worth it in this day and age i remember as a kid 30 years ago wcers trad charging 2/3/4 quid i remember me mum getting money for the windy. withtimes as they are, costs as they are and cost of living - i mean a house 30 years ago was a damn site cheaper than now even in this current downturn isnt it realistic for people to accept at least ten quid as the going min rate for window cleaning whether trad or wfp.

i quoted a guy the other day for his windows the the conny windows and the conny roof - large conny - i said a tenner for the conny windows and 30 quid for roof and 15 for his windows - trust me guys the conny had a load of glass as had an apex and all glass. - he looked shocked at the price - i tried to be witty but after a poor night canvassing a must of snapped my reply cos he looked surprised - i said what were you expecting 3.50 ? havent got the job but woudnt have wanted it for any less either even starting out as i am - i dont wanna play the desperate game as wasting time on an underpaid job when i could be canvassing for better work you know what i mean...

sorry to have wafled on here., just thought id share in this thread. i am however loving this trade apart form the aching at times - especially today when i done a couple of houses late in the day and the son of my customer actually shouted to his mum from upstairs mum have you seen how clean these windows are... and another today was equally impressed with her 1st clean - have to admit leafletted the road on the 1st clean walked back to van and thought - ive done an awesome job there and they outshone all the other windows in the cul-de-sac. job satisfaction lol.

[Gav Camm lammy 283]

mike i think youl be best joining the guild m8
lot cheaper n a lot better 

[mci services]

i guess two types of customer those that want a pucker job and willing to pay a fair price for that and those that just want  cheap job trouble is those cheapy customers still expect a pucker job.

im starting out in recent months and havent got a compact round (expect that will take years) and learning everyday how to price more accurately for myself. i find i feel resentful if i do a job i undercharge on (not dilebarately) i use the pound a window guide but when you have windows that are awkward to get to or have fancy trim that is a dirt trap it all adds time, like when switcihng from everyday pole to longer one more downtime to complete the job. i like to charge a min of ten pound a property i do a good job and believe im always worth more than i charge. i think ten pound min for any property anywhere in the country should base min coz its worth it in this day and age i remember as a kid 30 years ago wcers trad charging 2/3/4 quid i remember me mum getting money for the windy. withtimes as they are, costs as they are and cost of living - i mean a house 30 years ago was a damn site cheaper than now even in this current downturn isnt it realistic for people to accept at least ten quid as the going min rate for window cleaning whether trad or wfp.

i quoted a guy the other day for his windows the the conny windows and the conny roof - large conny - i said a tenner for the conny windows and 30 quid for roof and 15 for his windows - trust me guys the conny had a load of glass as had an apex and all glass. - he looked shocked at the price - i tried to be witty but after a poor night canvassing a must of snapped my reply cos he looked surprised - i said what were you expecting 3.50 ? havent got the job but woudnt have wanted it for any less either even starting out as i am - i dont wanna play the desperate game as wasting time on an underpaid job when i could be canvassing for better work you know what i mean...

sorry to have wafled on here., just thought id share in this thread. i am however loving this trade apart form the aching at times - especially today when i done a couple of houses late in the day and the son of my customer actually shouted to his mum from upstairs mum have you seen how clean these windows are... and another today was equally impressed with her 1st clean - have to admit leafletted the road on the 1st clean walked back to van and thought - ive done an awesome job there and they outshone all the other windows in the cul-de-sac. job satisfaction lol.

jings that was a read well done and good luck with the future

[G Griffin]

i guess two types of customer those that want a pucker job and willing to pay a fair price for that and those that just want  cheap job trouble is those cheapy customers still expect a pucker job.

im starting out in recent months and havent got a compact round (expect that will take years) and learning everyday how to price more accurately for myself. i find i feel resentful if i do a job i undercharge on (not dilebarately) i use the pound a window guide but when you have windows that are awkward to get to or have fancy trim that is a dirt trap it all adds time, like when switcihng from everyday pole to longer one more downtime to complete the job. i like to charge a min of ten pound a property i do a good job and believe im always worth more than i charge. i think ten pound min for any property anywhere in the country should base min coz its worth it in this day and age i remember as a kid 30 years ago wcers trad charging 2/3/4 quid i remember me mum getting money for the windy. withtimes as they are, costs as they are and cost of living - i mean a house 30 years ago was a damn site cheaper than now even in this current downturn isnt it realistic for people to accept at least ten quid as the going min rate for window cleaning whether trad or wfp.

i quoted a guy the other day for his windows the the conny windows and the conny roof - large conny - i said a tenner for the conny windows and 30 quid for roof and 15 for his windows - trust me guys the conny had a load of glass as had an apex and all glass. - he looked shocked at the price - i tried to be witty but after a poor night canvassing a must of snapped my reply cos he looked surprised - i said what were you expecting 3.50 ? havent got the job but woudnt have wanted it for any less either even starting out as i am - i dont wanna play the desperate game as wasting time on an underpaid job when i could be canvassing for better work you know what i mean...

sorry to have wafled on here., just thought id share in this thread. i am however loving this trade apart form the aching at times - especially today when i done a couple of houses late in the day and the son of my customer actually shouted to his mum from upstairs mum have you seen how clean these windows are... and another today was equally impressed with her 1st clean - have to admit leafletted the road on the 1st clean walked back to van and thought - ive done an awesome job there and they outshone all the other windows in the cul-de-sac. job satisfaction lol.

  Some good points; but you may have to foresake a compact round, especially if you charge well. That`s not always a bad thing though.

[Gav Camm lammy 283]

i find once yr 1st cleans r done which slow u done
no end n u xplain wfp rite then everythings plain sailing
easy peasy end of

[mci services]

i guess two types of customer those that want a pucker job and willing to pay a fair price for that and those that just want  cheap job trouble is those cheapy customers still expect a pucker job.

im starting out in recent months and havent got a compact round (expect that will take years) and learning everyday how to price more accurately for myself. i find i feel resentful if i do a job i undercharge on (not dilebarately) i use the pound a window guide but when you have windows that are awkward to get to or have fancy trim that is a dirt trap it all adds time, like when switcihng from everyday pole to longer one more downtime to complete the job. i like to charge a min of ten pound a property i do a good job and believe im always worth more than i charge. i think ten pound min for any property anywhere in the country should base min coz its worth it in this day and age i remember as a kid 30 years ago wcers trad charging 2/3/4 quid i remember me mum getting money for the windy. withtimes as they are, costs as they are and cost of living - i mean a house 30 years ago was a damn site cheaper than now even in this current downturn isnt it realistic for people to accept at least ten quid as the going min rate for window cleaning whether trad or wfp.

i quoted a guy the other day for his windows the the conny windows and the conny roof - large conny - i said a tenner for the conny windows and 30 quid for roof and 15 for his windows - trust me guys the conny had a load of glass as had an apex and all glass. - he looked shocked at the price - i tried to be witty but after a poor night canvassing a must of snapped my reply cos he looked surprised - i said what were you expecting 3.50 ? havent got the job but woudnt have wanted it for any less either even starting out as i am - i dont wanna play the desperate game as wasting time on an underpaid job when i could be canvassing for better work you know what i mean...

sorry to have wafled on here., just thought id share in this thread. i am however loving this trade apart form the aching at times - especially today when i done a couple of houses late in the day and the son of my customer actually shouted to his mum from upstairs mum have you seen how clean these windows are... and another today was equally impressed with her 1st clean - have to admit leafletted the road on the 1st clean walked back to van and thought - ive done an awesome job there and they outshone all the other windows in the cul-de-sac. job satisfaction lol.

  Some good points; but you may have to foresake a compact round, especially if you charge well. That`s not always a bad thing though.

well now we get to the point that we already knew a good compact round can be priced cheaper but if your market is driving around doing higher priced work then fair enough, I have both on my books and I like it that way

[G Griffin]

 There`s a lot in favour of a compact round but if you`re starting out I wouldn`t price lower just because it`s next door or close by.
  Unless you have little choice.

[Gav Camm lammy 283]

 gee nxt doors talk to each ova u no
n will want to no y you charging more etc