[mark mann]

HAS ANYONE GOT THE DEFINITIVE ON THE RULES OFD WORKING AT HEIGHT RE LADDERS AND WORKING ON 2ND STORY HIEGHT.

DOES SOMEONE NEED TO BE AT THE BOTTOM OR CAN YOU USE A FORM OF LADDER STAY AT THE BOTTOM.

DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE THAT ATTACHMENT AT THE TOP I FORGET THE NAME FOR IT.

DO YOU HAVE TO BE CERTIFIED TO USE IT THAT WAY?

ACCUSE MY IGNORANCE OF THE SUBJECT - WILL CUT AND PASTE YOUR ANSWERS INTO MY LIBRARY OF WORD DOCS SO IVE GOT IT COVERED AND HANDY TO REFER BACK TO.

THANKS GUYS - SORRY FORGOT CAPS WAS ON.

[darren clarke]

ladders arnt banned but must be secure  ie footed or ladders spikes

[darren clarke]

Many window cleaning businesses are claiming that laws are about to come into force due to European Directive 2001/45/EC that will make ladders illegal for window cleaners.. However, the government denies this stipulation, as ladder use for window cleaning is "low risk and short duration" [4]:

To clarify the situation HSE is not attempting to ban ladders or stepladders, but ladders should not be the automatic first choice of access. They should only be used after a suitable assessment of the alternatives and the prevailing site conditions. The selection process for access equipment is coming under increasing scrutiny at HSE inspections. This guidance clarifies that for short duration work like window cleaning, provided a number of well-recognised precautions are taken, ladders will remain a common tool for many jobs.[3]

The Working At Height Regulations came into force in 2005 and do not ban ladders [4] but merely restricts their use to safe methods, i.e. foot it by person or with a ladderstopper:

4.2.2. The feet of portable ladders must be prevented from slipping during use by securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends, by any anti-slip device or by any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness. Ladders used for access must be long enough to protrude sufficiently beyond the access platform, unless other measures have been taken to ensure a firm handhold. Interlocking ladders and extension ladders must be used so that the different sections are prevented from moving relative to one another. Mobile ladders must be prevented from moving before they are stepped on.[5][6]

The HSE favours the use of scaffold towers, i.e. temporary workstations, for window cleaning but acknowledges this is rather awkward,

"For some jobs, a mobile elevating work platform will be the best option. However, for many jobs, especially on domestic and small commercial buildings, risk assessment will demonstrate that because of the short duration of the work and features on the building that cannot be altered, ladders are the only realistic option." [7]

Though hailed as safer than ladders, the Health and Safety Executive acknowledges [7] that WFP systems spill lots of water which either the window cleaner or their client could slip on.

[mark mann]

thanks Darren for taking the time and giving a comprehensive reply mate, brill.

does this bit mean that the ladder i use to do a soffit or gutter for example must rise or be higher than the roofline?... this is the bit you mentioned....Ladders used for access must be long enough to protrude sufficiently beyond the access platform, unless other measures have been taken to ensure a firm handhold.

regards mark

[idealrob]

Agree with nerly all of what you are saying Darren, and lets be honest when do you see ladders secured, as law states, about 5 % of time, as a guess.

But your last couple of lines about HSE being concerned about slps on water, where does that info come from. In the Uk and especially North West, Ireland etc it rains a lot and pavements are wet, never notices HSE, comenting on Avon lady, postman, milkman, door to door sellers etc, what info from HSE have you got

idelrob

[darren clarke]

i try not to use ladders  but when i do they arnt secure, i just copied that of wikipedia as it was taken from the WH reg 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_washer

the actual regs are at

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/contents/made

this is what unite union says about it

http://www.unitetheunion.org/member_services/health_and_safety/health_and_safety_news_archive/new_work_at_height_regulations.aspx


it is very confusing and can be taken different ways,  a lot will still say that ladders are fine, but how many on here have had a near miss and then gone out and bought wfp

[darren clarke]

ladders should always rise above what u are working on any way  by something like 4 rungs of a ladder

[Newannaive]

ladders will never be banned, they would need ladder police driving around searching for those pesky cleaners 

[cat9921]

Many window cleaning businesses are claiming that laws are about to come into force due to European Directive 2001/45/EC that will make ladders illegal for window cleaners.. However, the government denies this stipulation, as ladder use for window cleaning is "low risk and short duration" [4]:

and yet

Window cleaning is considered the most dangerous job in the UK. Several window cleaners die each year, and many are injured.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_cleaner
 

At the end of the day just ask WHY use a ladder when its safer to use a pole  :

Adders

[Nathanael Jones]

To clarify the situation HSE is not attempting to ban ladders or stepladders, but ladders should not be the automatic first choice

If WFP can do the job & you use ladders as your automatic first choice,.. where do you stand if there is an accident? Will your insurance still cover you if you were working outside the law when you fell?

[darren clarke]

H and S is always written so you can read in to it what u want, that way they aint making anyone unemployed,  just use your ladders till you fall, chances are you wont be proscuted unless u employee and made them use ladders then you will,  but any insurance might not pay out  ie employment insurance or damage to someones property,  its a bit like drink driving  u r insursed till u get pulled them u aint insursed

[Nick Wareham]

the way i understand it, you cant use ladders if theres a safer method

(wikipedia LOL, totally unrelaible.  Remember Porchesia?  )

[AuRavelling79]

If you use a ladder you will be dragged away to certain death by flying piranhas.

[andyM]

Mark regarding your question about a ladder rising higher than the roofline when cleaning soffits.
As a rule when using a ladder the advice given is that you should not stand on the top 2 rungs, and when working the top rung of the ladder should be no lower than your navel line.
Only when you are accessing a working platform ie. scaffolding, or a roof does the ladder need to protrude sufficiently above this. The reason for that is to give you a good handhold when stepping on and off the ladder at height.

[mark mann]

thanks all good stuff and good shout ajm thanks mate that makes practicle sense.

ive gotta buy some ladders and was going ask on this thread but think it maybe better to post it as a topic coz in a quandry about whats gonna be the best choice that covers most of my needs.

thanks again guys.

[idealrob]

I personally think the info from the Unite Union is really excellent, and written in a genuinly simple way.
As for H & S written so you can read into it what you want, is not true, imo.
It states most laws, eg a lanlord has to have a gas appliance checked every year, its law, and if you dont , and problem occur, you will suffer .
I dont want to get involved with ladder laws, as the good post will turn into sill argument

idealrob