[PPC]

Hello everyone,
                         I could do with a little help on this one i think.

We are looking for some unbiase feedback concerning switch over to Pure Water Heated systems. I am particularly interested in honest dialogue with window cleaner/companies that were using cold water systems & then switched to hot (A before and after if you like). And your opinions on the benefits you experienced, if any?

In general we are trying to answer these questions before committing expenditure to Hot Water systems:

1. Quicker? If so, do we know why & by what reasonable percentage do you think can be achieved?
2. Is your heat exchange fed from the vehicle fuel tank or an isolated red diesel tank?
3. What are you spending on overall running costs per month, how many litres are you burning to operate it , this would be very helpful?
4. Is there any other benefit besides working it colder temperatures that we are overlooking?

I would be grateful if anyone could answer these areas as manufacturers are a little 'grey' on these more theoretical elements & I would be more interested in feedback from working cleaners at this point.

Put simply I trust you guys 

Many thanks.

Gary

[Steven Shoreditch]

I wouldn't trust anyone than my own experience, mate, but no harm asking I suppose.

I can answer question 1.

I couldn't be any more quick than I am at the moment - regardless of what system I use, hot, cold, long, short, black, white.  Remember that if a customer doesn't like you going quickly then they won't careless how or why you are quicker.

Other thoughts...

You'd need to convince the customer that the hot system is better for them - and some have difficulty convincing the cust. that wfp is better than trad, so why risk buying a hot system?

Lastly, if you are a hardcore windy, then you'd work in all weathers anyway, regardless of the cold.  A hot system is not likely to make your life easier in the winter, as most of us here know from experience that it can be bl00dy tough going.

Good luck though.

[PPC]

Thank you for your reply SSWC.

So, if I understood you correctly, your hot water system is not any faster at completing your workloads than your previous cold water systems? So why bother switching to hot?

It was suggested to us that Hot water systems (glided) better & faster across the glass, which to be fair, I am struggling with really understanding the science behind it! Being that manufacturers cannot offer me, what i consider to be, a scientific reply supporting this claim!!

As far as I can make out, water entropy & heat kinetics 'should' decrease the amount of time required to clean the given surface. If it can be firmly established that heating the water gives a reduction in cleaning times than that has an intrisic value and maybe a worthy investment.

Or is this just flat out garbage? Anyone know the absolute answers to this?

Many thanks.

Gary

[TomCrowther]

I understand the only real benefit is when cleaning conservatory roofs, the dried on stuff comes off quicker.

[Ste M]

From speakin to people in the 'know' who are experianced with hot water it certainly is quicker, especially on maintenance cleans, hot water breaks the dirt down much quicker an is great for hard core dirt like bird muck an also insect muck. Frames come up to a high standard quicker and also another big benifit is it dries faster.

Oh an one of the main reasons I'm in the process of goin hot is that you can work when the temp drops as your hose won't freeze and if you plumb it up a certain way you can feed some of your hot back into your tank so that also doesn't freeze

[Nathanael Jones]

Hot has many advantages,... especially if like me you have a lot of customers who are only 4 times a year (or less!). For regular 2 weekly or 4 weekly work you wouldn't notice it as much tho.

[supernova77]

You'd need to convince the customer that the hot system is better for them - and some have difficulty convincing the cust. that wfp is better than trad, so why risk buying a hot system?

Why would you even need to tell the customer that you were now using a hot water system?

[PPC]

I have read the replys from you all & thank you for taking to time & trouble to respond,
                                                                                                                                          I think the replys here provide a very realistic cross section of what most of us are being asked to believe about hot water conversion.

Correct me if im am wrong; but Tom has spoken to others as we have, and to be fair a guarantee of being able to work in winter does not really justify the investment alone. Please bare in mind that we are talking about converting numerous vehicles, a sizeable financial investment!

Nathan however I am very interested in hearing his anecdotal evidence based on real operational experience , you are clearly using a hot water system, you have stated that 'Hot water has many advantages', do you think you could be kind enough to clarify for us and others who are considering hot water conversion what these benefits are & if we are indeed entitled to expect an improvement/reduction in our cleaning times which would equal greater achievable revenues to be generated?

I would ask at this stage that for the benefit of all, and i can see this being extremely helpful all round to a number of us, that those with Hot water systems give us their opinions and experiences concerning conversion only. There must be plenty of people now running Hot systems who were in this very position, we would love to hear from you.

Many thanks again everyone.

Gary

[steven ainger]

hot water is better in the summer because you can turn the heat up a bit to help clean of bee/fly spots and baked on bird pooh etc and also for cleaning con' roofs , but you have to turn it down in the winter because of the risk of thermal shock on the glass and breaking it, but its nice to have luke warm water to keep the hoses supple.
 in my opinion, if i had to spend thousands to set the hot system up, i dont think i could justify the expence, but because i only spent a couple of hundred and it only costs about £2 ish per day to operate i use it on every house and miss it when i have run out of gas.

p.s    its also alot better on new cleans and the windows seem to dry a bit quicker.  hope this helps

[Nathanael Jones]

Hot water will allow you to work longer in the winter,... not enough to pay for itself probably, but certainly enough to justify the years fuel costs.
Hot water helps a huge amount on first cleans and on irregular cleans, both as regards speed and the results.
Hot water can be recycled back to the van tank, making it into a heat store to keep your van frost free overnight.
Hot water is great for cladding cleans & conservatory cleans.
Hot water keeps my hands warm, so I might work a bit longer on a cold day!
It makes the hoses more supple & easier to work with.
It does impress the customers,.. those who might have said "you're only splashing water on my windows" will now see the steam rising & know that its more than that.
You also have a constant supply of hot water for your trad bucket when required.


Personally I'd never go back to a cold system,.. but then my system is  a DIY gas heater and cost an awful lot less than the diesel heaters so I feel the advantages that much more.

[A@R WINDOWCLEANING]

gary i have 2 vans on the road both had cold water systems which i had converted to hot water i would never go back ,alot of my jobs are in the sticks so alot of fly spots & baked on bird poo it takes it off much quicker than cold water in my experience ,i got through winter much easier than when i had cold system just turn the temperture down in winter to avoid glass damage even if it costs me £20 a week that is only 1 job well worth it !!i had trouble with my split relay charger which made me use cold water it is SLOWER when you come up against stubborn dirt . i have invested £5,000 in my hot water  systems which is a lot of money but NO REGRETS I LOVE THEM ,HOPE THIS HELPS YOU ,ant other questions i will be glad to answer ,in my opion and i know people will disagree but if you can afford it do it you will not be disapointed  


                                ant

[Nathanael Jones]

Do you have a hot system then Ewan?

[thermoclean]

I would challange anyone to work for even one day with a hot system
and say they want to go back to a cold wfp. it just so much better to work with and at most £1 a hour to run (3 men working from one van)
it is well worth it. and with a unit that has frost protection build in you loose very little time in the winter and your ro and pumps dont get damaged from  freezing up.  also it makes the process of changing customers  from trad to wfp much easier. it had almost given up on buying runs that were done trad because of the hassle of the change over but with hot wfp it much much easier.   

[PPC]

Gentlemen Thankyou!,
                                     These really are excellent reponses & are very much appreciated. I particularly liked the honesty & objectiveness of Ant, Nathan & Ewan.

Once again this forum comes up trumps & the contractors here set themselves apart.

Many thanks all your help & excellent feedback chaps.

Gary

[Richard 01903]

Hi I would like to go HOT d/i/y anyone know how and what you need and where from?

[Nathanael Jones]

An L5 heater from the USA,.. a UK gas bottle regulator & hose from any good camping shop,... simple as.

[Richard 01903]

What cost are involed and why from USA?

[PPC]

Before this tread becomes a DIY Heated system consultation I would like to offer something back to the forums & this thread.

Being that we are all WFP operators, contractors some of us employers & some self employed I think I can safely say we all take the health & safety of our work & industry seriously, or why else would you frequent these forums?

I have a saved document from a chap called Karl Taylor who has installed the L5 heater arrays into his vehicle, while this isn't unique i guess Karl's thoroughness in ensuring his system didnt contravene transport of hazadous gases, certificated installation, proper carbon monoxide venting, risk assessments & fire procedures really are to be commended.

More importantly, before any of us consider DIY'ing gas feed L5 heater systems you might want to consider the liabilty & potential risks you could be attacting if you do not follow his excellent & thorough examples for the DIY route.

Here's the link:

http://www.healthandsafetytips.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=19187

I do not know Karl personally, maybe he frequents these very forums? Nevertheless, if anything it is almost certain to require very strict monitoring, regulation & maintenance procedures/programmes to ensure you as the owner of the equipment are not liable, or worse breaching HSE regulations of flammable substances.

Moreover, I would have great reservations carting Propane Gas onto any commercial site without valid certification & decalring it in risk assessments. Not to mention you will invalidate your vehicle insurance if you do not declare it to your insurers, And i bet good money your premium will jump when they find out your transporting bottled gas cylinders about.

And it's really not for us, we are knee deep in employment regulations & health & safety as is, i really don't fancy adding further to it.

I hope it helps , it did me!

Regards

Gary

[Newannaive]

I would challange anyone to work for even one day with a hot system
and say they want to go back to a cold wfp. it just so much better to work with and at most £1 a hour to run (3 men working from one van)
it is well worth it. and with a unit that has frost protection build in you loose very little time in the winter and your ro and pumps dont get damaged from  freezing up.  also it makes the process of changing customers  from trad to wfp much easier. it had almost given up on buying runs that were done trad because of the hassle of the change over but with hot wfp it much much easier.   

how come the change over to wfp's easier with hot? they impressed?

[the bfg]

when it comes to heavy soiled fascia/gutter cleans then you really see the difference that hot makes,   I did such a job yesterday in HALF the time it would have taken with cold.

just watching the hot cut through all that dirt like a hot knife through butter is a sight for sore eyes.

likewise on pvc paneling and cladding  and when you have all that trouble removing pollen off glass  you don't with hot