[Sunshine/Cleaning]

Some people approach WFP with so much scepticism that when they start using it they highlight every conceivable problem and fail to work around the issues it causes. For some it is the fact that they are very low priced and have never cleaned a frame in their life. For others it is the inability to work out the best practice, and for yet others the mixture of types of windows which benefit from different methods.

Do you have a plan or a purpose?
If you plan to use WFP all the time then you must drop any work for which it is not suited.
If you have a purpose, that is to earn, you will adapt your methods and get GOOD advice.

Sadly many on here haven't the first clue as to what is the best method for YOUR work as all rounds are different. Some don't even know the best method for their own.
I have rounds which are 100% WFP, others that are 100% Trad and others still that are 50/50.

It really depends on how you approach WFP, the advice you are given, the method you use WFP and the type of work that you have.

You could preserve, give up or only use it on certain work. Your choice in the end.
I wish you all the best.

[Joe Lauzon]

I have always been amazed how biased this forum is towards wfp, its seems many of the trad guys have been chased away through ridicule.  My take, wfp is king on most commercial work, particularly the larger accounts.  No doubt, if your a big cheese in the window cleaning world the pole is the way.

Now if you only have domestic work, I can really see the sense in going trad only and modifying your round to suit trad.  But if like me you have wfp mainly for commercial, it seems wise to get domestic work which suits wfp.  I have about 25% commercial 75% domestic.  1 man band, fairly lucrative work as I have been in the trade 17 years now.

Many won't admit it here, but domestic customers generally, not all, but generally prefer trad.  Haven't lost a trad customer in years, other than through redundancy.  Pole work on the other hand, well I lose more domestic work.  I have a number of custies I have kept, but they insist on trad - which kind of tells you something.  Thats the truth as I see it.  The overheads and preference of customers, means in my opinion trad is better for most domestic work.  Although obviously there are exceptions, just avoid those acceptions if your a ladder guy.  Simple really.

I have only just started posting here again recently Daz.  My advice would of been hold off starting wfp in general until October time, the summer and the "truth" of the sun makes it a rough time to start.  Secondly, if your like me the economy dictates work is harder to find, lucrative work at least.  I wouldn't of risked starting wfp until the country was out of this mess.

I think my final message is, all rounds are different.  Don't take anyones opinion as gospel.

[Mist A Bit]

reading all these posts just amazes me. i have switched to wfp 6 months ago, i dont have problems with the quality, the custys dont have a problem with me using it and generally pick up the same amount if not more work each week, plus all the extra jobs which wfp works well on..
Yes its extra cost and hassle in the way i get home and im still working ie. filling up tank, charging betteries ect ect but i am making more profit since the change over and thats what business is all about. on the plus side i enjoy using wfp and feel confident using it and i think that rubs off on custys.
i dont over sell the benifits of wfp and im thruthfull about the pro`s and cons about any chosen meathod.
im now 100%wfp after being trad for 8 years and im making more money now than i have in previous years

[wpclean]

Excellent post Joe,
I am getting a trolley wfp setup because at the moment I am turning work away because of the height issue !
I think you can easily use trad and wfp together for different work .

[dazmond]

thanks to all you guys who have posted!

i have quite a few bigger country houses,commercial and awkward accounts that wfp will be much safer on!also i have two big estates of very compact 3 bed semis which have nearly all got windows above sloping roofs,sloping imprinted concrete driveways etc,etc so wfp is defo safer!!

im only interested in cleaning a upper window to a passable standard with wfp and im sure i will achieve that after the first few cleans and my technique improves.

some custys are over the moon that ive cleaned there frames as well!with wfp its much easier for a upper window to be cleaned than say having to get up the ladder twice to reach the other side of a frame!!

as for joe saying i should of started wfp after the recession or later on in the year is utterly ridiculous!!!

[Joe Lauzon]

I didn't mean to put the boot in Daz.  Any man that cleans windows till 8 p.m. is hungry, never gone past 6 in my life.  You will be fine one way or the other.

Everyones rounds are so different, I guess thats why there is so much conflicting opinion.

Nobody will ever convince me that _most_ domestic customers don't prefer trad though.  They do, and often will pay more for the service they prefer.  Harsh truth for us wfp'ers, but a truth nonetheless, in my opinion.

I have picked up so much work from customers who previously had wfp guys make a mess of their windows.  So much work.  Often I just went in high and traded them, they were totally anti wfp. 

You can cream it in with the pole like you never could with trad, just use your head as to when to use it and take your opportunities.

[dazmond]

thanks for the reply joe!

i suppose tradding lower windows would keep a lot of the domestic custys happy while wfpoling the upper windows would keep me safe!

i reckon i would be quicker than trad only after the first few months!!

best of both worlds!!

best wishes

dazmond

[david watts]

great post joe tops my only advice is try a gardiners brush
may help a bit

[Ian_Giles]

Time and time again a great many trad window cleaners make the change to WFP and just do not realise that there is a very big learning curve...it all looks just so deceptively easy doesn't it?
Wash & rinse, job done! What could be easier eh?...a walk in the park innit?

You have to 're-learn' every single account in your round, you need to work out just how to clean each window on your round to an acceptable level, and then further accept that sometimes there are some windows that simply will never come good with WFP.
Oxidised frames?...well they'll always spot won't they....nope, once you gain enough experience you can get even those to a more than acceptable standard.

Trying to WFP windows on a windy day on the side of a street that also has a heavy traffic flow?
Get those right and I'll buy you a cake! Sometimes you just have to know when you're beat!
Developing a good technique, getting the water flow just right, not over rinsing, but also knowing when you have to scrub and rinse heavily!

Is it better than trad? Well, yes, of course it is sometimes, and sometimes it is worse, but it is most certainly less consistent....but on the other hand because you can do the frames you can also do a far more thorough job than trad.

Compare the learning curve to a computer game.....how many of you have played the original 'Mario Kart'?
It is ridiculously easy to play, just about anyone can play it and shoot around tracks winning races.
But to get really good at it takes real skill, once you learn all the little tricks, the jumps, the fast starts and so on and the best characters to use your times get faster and faster, so much so that you would never have believed it possible when you first started.
Hopefully you follow the analogy....that's the learning curve, WFP might be easy to do, but takes an awful lot longer than you realise to become truly adept at using it and squeezing the best out of it.

I have some accounts I've used WFP on month after month, year after year, and then suddenly find a little tweak that makes me that little bit more efficient, and end out slapping my head wondering why I hadn't done it years ago.

I still trad no end of stuff, and I've even been known to climb a ladder occasionally to clean the odd window....
But I could never understand someone going back to 100% trad if they have been WFP for a fairly long time.

Ian

[Sean Dyer]

good post that ian i still have to make the jump to wfp for the majority of domestic and with some of the posts recently it was looking like it would be a mistake but i trust what you say and when the time comes i will stick with it 100 % this time, i tried a year or so ago and gave up pretty quick but i will stick with it!! as i know it is the way forward! especially for employing as i will not let staff clean first floor and above with a ladder

[james44]

Yes good points there ian,

I think alot of the problem is that people just jump straight in wfp instead of gently changing over,

I did 4 houses a day when i changed over in my round plus i practised for about 2 months on my own and family houses even before i did customers houses! that way if there was any issues i could sort them and i could practise on my technique,

I felt doing it this way would not only help with my technique but help me with my speed as well

I remember doing my own house and kept looking at my watch to see how long i was taking because people on this forum were saying it`s 50% faster than trad i started to go faster because i was running out of time finished my windows and they were crap! yes it can be faster but consider this!

when you started of trad it could take months for you to develop a technique and the more you got used to your technique the faster you became! well the same applies to wfp and as ian has said you will have to learn your whole round again don`t try and run before you can walk!

[dazmond]

i think ill stick to wfp tops/trad bottoms but change the whole lot still at once!and use it top and bottoms on bigger houses with good cleanish frames.

how am i supposed to learn if im only cleaning 4 houses wfp  a day?

i" over egged" the few complaints a bit on friday as i was very tired.quite a lot had come up good!

i also managed to get the same work done but i worked harder and longer for it so im not getting behind with work!!!

thanks for all your input guys!!

dazmond

[Frankybadboy]

and then daz changed his mind 

[actualcleaning]

If i was you Daz i would just give up and go back to trad.

[Paul Coleman]

I didn't mean to put the boot in Daz.  Any man that cleans windows till 8 p.m. is hungry, never gone past 6 in my life.  You will be fine one way or the other.

Everyones rounds are so different, I guess thats why there is so much conflicting opinion.

Nobody will ever convince me that _most_ domestic customers don't prefer trad though.  They do, and often will pay more for the service they prefer.  Harsh truth for us wfp'ers, but a truth nonetheless, in my opinion.

I have picked up so much work from customers who previously had wfp guys make a mess of their windows.  So much work.  Often I just went in high and traded them, they were totally anti wfp. 

You can cream it in with the pole like you never could with trad, just use your head as to when to use it and take your opportunities.

Hi Joe.
It probaly is true that most domestic customers prefer trad to WFP.  When you look into the reasons behind it though, it's not often about the quality of the finished job.  It's about wet paths, wet walls, them not being able to get their heads around WFP actually working, them not liking their window cleaner apparently earning more money and probably other reasons too.  Not usually about work quality though.
I'm afraid that as the worker/business owner, I have to be the one who decides how the job is done - not the customer.  If we can't agree, either party has the right to end the arrangement.  No need for any malice about it.  Just agree to disagree and move on to customers who are happy with the method and results.

[james44]

how am i supposed to learn if im only cleaning 4 houses wfp  a day? Huh

when you started of trad it could take months for you to develop a technique and the more you got used to your technique the faster you became! well the same applies to wfp and as ian has said you will have to learn your whole round again don`t try and run before you can walk!

[birdymiller]

Time and time again a great many trad window cleaners make the change to WFP and just do not realise that there is a very big learning curve...it all looks just so deceptively easy doesn't it?
Wash & rinse, job done! What could be easier eh?...a walk in the park innit?

You have to 're-learn' every single account in your round, you need to work out just how to clean each window on your round to an acceptable level, and then further accept that sometimes there are some windows that simply will never come good with WFP.
Oxidised frames?...well they'll always spot won't they....nope, once you gain enough experience you can get even those to a more than acceptable standard.

Trying to WFP windows on a windy day on the side of a street that also has a heavy traffic flow?
Get those right and I'll buy you a cake! Sometimes you just have to know when you're beat!
Developing a good technique, getting the water flow just right, not over rinsing, but also knowing when you have to scrub and rinse heavily!

Is it better than trad? Well, yes, of course it is sometimes, and sometimes it is worse, but it is most certainly less consistent....but on the other hand because you can do the frames you can also do a far more thorough job than trad.

Compare the learning curve to a computer game.....how many of you have played the original 'Mario Kart'?
It is ridiculously easy to play, just about anyone can play it and shoot around tracks winning races.
But to get really good at it takes real skill, once you learn all the little tricks, the jumps, the fast starts and so on and the best characters to use your times get faster and faster, so much so that you would never have believed it possible when you first started.
Hopefully you follow the analogy....that's the learning curve, WFP might be easy to do, but takes an awful lot longer than you realise to become truly adept at using it and squeezing the best out of it.

I have some accounts I've used WFP on month after month, year after year, and then suddenly find a little tweak that makes me that little bit more efficient, and end out slapping my head wondering why I hadn't done it years ago.

I still trad no end of stuff, and I've even been known to climb a ladder occasionally to clean the odd window....
But I could never understand someone going back to 100% trad if they have been WFP for a fairly long time.

Ian

For an established window cleaner i dont think it makes sense to "re'learn" every account. After 12 years i have tweaked and tweaked my round so it is as efficient as i can get it. i dont charge for cleaning frames if they want this service they pay for it once a year. in my experience cleaning glass only trad style is just as fast as wfp frame cleaning. For me when i take into account the extra overheads with wfp and the uncertain results and the extra work after i have finished my paid work that is why i hve gone back to trad after 2 years. I dont think that if the glass does not come up to standard i can convince my custies that they at least have clean frames is an option.

[Joe Lauzon]

Some great posts there.

Your right about finding the right customers Paul, but thats not easy to do in this climate.  At least thats my experience.  I found a number of people seemed resentful of what appeared on face value, quick and easy money.  Didn't help we just moved to a bigger house shortly after my change I don't think.

Regarding moving to customers who are happy with wfp.  Thats the one point I would question.  Some work I just don't want to lose, can't afford to lose.  Some jobs I can make great money using trad.  In those circumstances I don't want to push wfp, and I am more than happy to let the customer dictate the method.  Thin line though, I found you need to be aware who they know, and any nearby jobs.  Otherwise those less lucrative customers will also think they can dictate the method.  

What was great about pole for me, is it transformed so many of those less lucrative jobs.  The ones you put off till Friday, they became "cream".  I will never be one to use wfp 100% like so many here, but maybe thats because I'm a convertor rather than starting out with the pole.  So much of my business is tailor made for trad.

[Joe Lauzon]

I am from the same background as you Birdy, so I can appreciate what your saying.  You refine a round to suit a method, thats exactly what it does.

Surely though, you have some jobs that are better suited to wfp?  Isn't it worth using the pole for those jobs on your round?  What about when you come across work that simply isn't viable to do trad? 

[james44]

move on to customers who are  happy with the method and results.

This is all very well paul! but what happens is the compact round you built up over the years starts to fall apart!