[mark dew]

Can somebody please define " A cowboy"

Yeah, good question.
Have read many definitions on here before.
No pl insurance. Not required by law for domestics.
Beer money brigade. Who works just so they can pay hmrc?
Cheap prices. That rules out most north of newark.
No training. What training? There are courses out there but how relevant are they?

Just another tax in my opinion. But hey, i'm a wc insider now. Let's close the door on everyone else. I don't think so!   :

I think the idea sucks cos it will be abused and manipulated by some faceless beaurocrat who needs paying. That's where the license money will go. That or some quango with window cleaning in its name.

It's bound to come anyway but i will resist it until i am forced to accept it. Then i will embrace it.

[simon knight]

Can somebody please define " A cowboy"

Yeah, good question.
Have read many definitions on here before.
No pl insurance. Not required by law for domestics.
Beer money brigade. Who works just so they can pay hmrc?
Cheap prices. That rules out most north of newark.
No training. What training? There are courses out there but how relevant are they?

Just another tax in my opinion. But hey, i'm a wc insider now. Let's close the door on everyone else. I don't think so!   :

I think the idea sucks cos it will be abused and manipulated by some faceless beaurocrat who needs paying. That's where the license money will go. That or some quango with window cleaning in its name.

It's bound to come anyway but i will resist it until i am forced to accept it.

All of above! But to me a "cowboy" is somebody who bodges and scarpers never to be found again...this in all casual work, not just window cleaning.  As you say works for cash only.

These people invariably go out of business in very quick time because word gets round...so "cowboys" although an irritant are absolutely no long-term threat to our livelyhoods. In fact they enhance our businesses because we look sooo good against them.

Licences are simply another tax which will hit us "professionals"...the cowboys will carry on regardless.

I'll actually turn w/c'ing in if I'm forced to buy a licence!!!!

[simon knight]

“I'll actually turn w/c'ing in if I'm forced to buy a licence!!!!”


That’s the whole point of the licence!

Nunno, believe me I'm totally legit. But what with tax returns and paying tax on account plus 8% NI i feel I'm paying enough for the priviledge of cleaning windows, which at the end of the day is a disrespected, dirty and can be a dangerous job.

I struggle to park, get parking tickets often but for all this still manage to scratch a crust and keep a smile on my face. If Wandsworth Council suddenly want me to buy a licence for £150?...stuff it.  Actually I won't turn it in..I'll just go cash only, claim benefits and be a cowboy.

[simon knight]

Well if it is £150 transfer the cost onto your customers!

Claim the £150 expenses and save yourself a bit of tax!

It's not on the cards here in Wandsworth and £150 was a guess if it were to be introduced.

Ewan, it's not so much the £150 it's the principle. I accept that we have to pay tax...we all pay it and if we didn't where would the country be? But charging money to licence w/c'ers will just penalise the legit guys....the cowboys will be able to undercut that much more because if they don't pay tax what chance of getting a licence?

Licences are loaded against honest people.

It seems to me that in this country if you're honest hmrc and local government milk you for all it's worth...and you Ewan endorse this?

[matt]

the point is, the "cowboys" will just be a little ahead of the "non-cowboys" as they will not have to pay another "tax" thus they will be even cheaper

[Chris Galloway]

i would think most customers wouldnt care less it would just be the buisnesses

tbh most of the cowboys do the cheap houses no real professional wants to touch. Proper window cleaners who are the biz and do the biz get the middle to upper market stuff. If customers are wanting cheap they can go to the cowboys  cos i wouldn't be doing them anyway. I want big houses behind locked gates.

[matt]

LOL, forget the cowboys think how you could sell your services better, easier or for more money because you are up to date with all the requirements.

Eventually every customer will be aware of the difference between the two sorts of window cleaner

This isn’t Rocket Science   

im pretty sure not 1 of my customers would care, they want clean windows, thats about it

[mci services]

heres my tuppence worth. i have a license and i wear it on my jacket/t shirt. comments i recieve are oh thats good you have id, or do you work for the council as well, then i explain that it is the law to be licensed and all w/c should have one. then the responce is well i never knew that. i think its been the law since 1982. but anyway its started to have an effect now but i rekon it will take years before the public know about it properly. all the w/c know about it but the public dont

[simon knight]

So why not pay (if there is ever a need) for a license. If it helps window cleaning industry even if only a little.

You need to start looking at all the benefits for you only, if there were a license.

But this is the thing: I can't see it helping the industry one iota and I certainly can't see any benefits to me whatsoever. In fact if anything it'll actually help the cowboys because they won't be lumbered with yet more bureaucracy, form filling and expense.

[lovewindows]

I like the idea of proffessionalism and a licence would help that image , although taxi drivers have a licence does that stop the cowboys ?
a previous point raised was good " if the customers windows get cleaned they dont care"
Me i would welcome a BADGE system, which says we have insurance, risk assessment and have been police checked but would it be enforced and would customers care ?

[matt]

but would it be enforced and would customers care ?

no and no

[DASERVICES]

There is change coming which we (SLWCN) have access to Council minutes, everthing is moving under one blanket.

Watch this take hold come next year. The legit business has nothing to worry about. If I was in the FED I would be watching all Council minutes. If England is the same structure in England then things like this are just a pilot run.

www.met.police.uk/saferneighbourhoods/SNTnewsletter/mertonravensbury.pdf

Rogue traders
Officers from Ravensbury Safer Neighbourhoods Team (SNT)
joined forces with the London Borough of Merton Trading
Standards department to crack down on rogue traders.
Numerous builders, gardeners and window cleaners were
stopped and spoken with to clarify their company and personal
details.
A total of twenty-three traders were stopped to account for their
actions. Trading Standards issued two of the traders with
warning letters regarding the poor way they were conducting
their business.
NEVER use the trades person that knocks on your door stating
that they are working in your area and have building materials
left over so they can do driveways, building work etc cheaper
because most of the time the workmanship will be of an inferior
quality.When you have agreed what tradesperson you will be
using, always agree on the price and get this in writing.
For further information you can contact your local Trading
Standards Department on 020 8545 3018.

[Londoner]

HOORAY! put me down for that. I welcome any form of serious well intentioned control over cowboys whoever and where ever thay may be.

The world appears to be full of dodgy builders, moonlighting minicabs and dole cheating window cleaners. The sooner everyone comes to realise they are not just likeable rogues the better.

[Davie T]

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that if you work in say 3 or 4 different licensing areas, you will have to purchase 3 or 4 licenses at between (approx) £60 - £80 each.
You will also have a problem with a new employee , as from the first day of employment he if to be entirely legally employed will require to be fully licencsed. It would be a net loss of course if he was totally unsuitable after a period of a couple of weeks and he had to be dismissed ! - No refund there! 
It is a fact that to physically receive a license in a w/cleaner's  name can take between 6 - 9 weeks so you have another dilema too - do you buy the license for him and hope he is OK or do you check him out and employ him when unlicensed?


Perhaps DA Services, who has been promoting the cause of licensing can reassure members and me too that these problems will not arise?

[Paul Coleman]

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that if you work in say 3 or 4 different licensing areas, you will have to purchase 3 or 4 licenses at between (approx) £60 - £80 each.
You will also have a problem with a new employee , as from the first day of employment he if to be entirely legally employed will require to be fully licencsed. It would be a net loss of course if he was totally unsuitable after a period of a couple of weeks and he had to be dismissed ! - No refund there! 
It is a fact that to physically receive a license in a w/cleaner's  name can take between 6 - 9 weeks so you have another dilema too - do you buy the license for him and hope he is OK or do you check him out and employ him when unlicensed?


Perhaps DA Services, who has been promoting the cause of licensing can reassure members and me too that these problems will not arise?

You mention one of the issues that would concern me.  Even if any possible future licensing were done by county boundaries, I would be liable for 3 (perhaps even 4) licences - quite an outlay for a sole trader.  I live close to the boundaries of W. Sussex, E. Sussex, and Surrey.  I have also done a one off job in Central London and did a bit in Kent quite a few years ago.  Actually, that would be 5 licences - though Central London woudn't re-occur.
It's a bit like having to buy a fresh driving license to go through each place you visit.

[DASERVICES]

Davie,

This is something I have now raised with the Scottish Government as it is a huge task to get Council's to work to a proceedure. The SLWCN does has some influence in getting licenses approved quickly as we have the knowledge and contacts to do so now.

What we have requested is that a Consultation be raised so all within the Industry can have their say along with the Councils. We would like all Councils to adhere to the same standards and to monitored on KPI's.

For instance a license should be turned around within 2 weeks provided there are no objections. Each Council to have a yearly and 3 yrs license. For the benefits of employers an employee license which will be at a lower price than the grant license.

If you hold one license then when applying for another Council area you get a rebate.

These are a few ideas which would help the process.

What will never be abolished is the license and the right for each Council area to charge for a license.

A consultation would be a better place for this to be discussed so if this can be raised then it would benefit us all.

The last consultation the FED and 2 window cleaners replied. The FED got involved after one of its members requested if they could. There was nothing in their replies which asked for licensing to be changed so the reason why it is still in a mess. If there was a better representation from our Industry at that time then things may be a lot better.

Failing that then we have the only option to keep on working with the Councils to have a uniformed system. Words mean nothing to them as you have to present it in reports which we have to done to get things started.

What a lot of window cleaners do not realise is that licensing has now moved out of legal into Enviroment Services which under this section Trading Standards is included. I personally feel there is a major shake up coming within the licensing section so the strong need to representation from the window cleaning industry.

Now the bad news to your question from a Senior Police Officer- "It is illegal to trade without a license, you can only trade once the license is issued" If the Police were to enforce that then the likes of Mitie etc.. would go out of business in the window cleaning trade.

I know it is not the perfect answer but we are trying to get things resolved.

Doug

[Paul Coleman]

Davie,

This is something I have now raised with the Scottish Government as it is a huge task to get Council's to work to a proceedure. The SLWCN does has some influence in getting licenses approved quickly as we have the knowledge and contacts to do so now.

What we have requested is that a Consultation be raised so all within the Industry can have their say along with the Councils. We would like all Councils to adhere to the same standards and to monitored on KPI's.

For instance a license should be turned around within 2 weeks provided there are no objections. Each Council to have a yearly and 3 yrs license. For the benefits of employers an employee license which will be at a lower price than the grant license.

If you hold one license then when applying for another Council area you get a rebate.

These are a few ideas which would help the process.

What will never be abolished is the license and the right for each Council area to charge for a license.

A consultation would be a better place for this to be discussed so if this can be raised then it would benefit us all.

The last consultation the FED and 2 window cleaners replied. The FED got involved after one of its members requested if they could. There was nothing in their replies which asked for licensing to be changed so the reason why it is still in a mess. If there was a better representation from our Industry at that time then things may be a lot better.

Failing that then we have the only option to keep on working with the Councils to have a uniformed system. Words mean nothing to them as you have to present it in reports which we have to done to get things started.

What a lot of window cleaners do not realise is that licensing has now moved out of legal into Enviroment Services which under this section Trading Standards is included. I personally feel there is a major shake up coming within the licensing section so the strong need to representation from the window cleaning industry.

Now the bad news to your question from a Senior Police Officer- "It is illegal to trade without a license, you can only trade once the license is issued" If the Police were to enforce that then the likes of Mitie etc.. would go out of business in the window cleaning trade.

I know it is not the perfect answer but we are trying to get things resolved.

Doug

This is one of the more general reasons why I am not too enamoured with the idea of licensing.  If the powers that be cock it up in a way that makes life more difficult for the genuine, law abiding window cleaner, it can be one hell of a job to get it put right as beurocratic wheels turn very slowly (except when it suits those powers to speed things up).

[Davie T]

To DA Services.

To me the whole licensing "thing" is simply a way of extracting more taxes in very difficult times.
The main reason why we will not have a single licensing authority is that by doing so, each licensing area would lose their lucrative income thereof. This is simply a "licence" to print moey for the respective areas.

A do not feel reassured by your reply to my question re what does one do when employing a new w/c who is personally unlicensed.  Perhaps you would clarify  :-

What would you personally do, buy a license and hope he was OK or wait until establishing he is OK and then buying a license? -Keeping in mind that you may have to buy several area licenses.  To me it is not a difficult question and it answers itself, legal or not!

[DASERVICES]

Davie,

Just to clarify one thing licensing is a Police driven incentive, not Council. It is fully backed by ACPOS. That is why you find Councils do not take ownership of the license as they are loosing out of over £100k in fees, £500k in Council tax, rent beinging claimed by rogue window cleaners.

With regards to the license I can only give you legal advise in that the employee must be licensed before he works. If you are concerned if he will get a license then speak to your local licensing Police Officer who may be able to help.

The other option which I would not advise which loads do is have him work without a license but if gets caught he risks a £350 fine.

I totally agree it does not work correctly at present but I cannot tell you to break the law.

Hope you understand.

Doug