[Paul Coleman]

you run it your way i run mine my way, i'm happy not sure if you are though.  if my staff wasnt happy he would go, zero hour suits him, i havnt mentioned hes a qualified plasterer he takes some days off to do plastering jobs (he dont like plastering tho  that why he dont hve a full time job doing it)

to summerise

he takes days off when it rains and when he has other work

i suppose the self employed route would suit better.

That sounds more like it.  He's really a self-employed subcontractor who takes on two different types of work as he prefers variety.  You're not his employer.  You are one of his customers.  Apart from my own commercial and domestic customers, I currently do fairly regular (though not necessarily frequent) window cleaning work for five different cleaning/window cleaning companies and I don't regard any of them as being employers on any kind of contract.  One or two of them may occasionally forget this briefly until I jog their memories but I am definitely self-employed - as is the guy who subs from you.  They don't have to ask me to work for them any more.  I don't have to sub from them any more.  As the arrangements are regular, out of respect I would give decent warning if I no longer wished to continue and I would hope that this respect would be returned if they no longer wanted me.  My sub work is done on pre-agreed prices (or in one case, a day rate as the work varies) and I take the hit if I work too slow or am unable to do a full day due to other commitments.
He should have his own PL insurance though and his own tools I believe - even if this is only on paper.

[pristine window cl]

morning all,hi bobby its the fsb ,no gala dinners,for me anyway, they put no work your way, but no ongoing costs.
There are benefits, legal insurance included,  advice if employees try to sue you etc, employment help, regs etc, if anyone does employ they should become a member, have look into it everyone.
hi santa, it would be similer to cis but i dont know exactly, just what fsb told me.
because of unemployment the goverment wish to make it easier to employ without actualy
employing them direct. it was a new eu directive some yrs back that tried to change the rules on self employment and stated that ,if a sub contracter, AND THIS IS THE WORD HERE, sub contracter.That if they set the time of work etc,      But the big one was if YOU could not offer someone else to carry out the work on your behalf, that had been contracted to u personly. THEN YOU WHERE AN EMPLOYEE.
As you can imagine this sent tidal waves through  the industry, many claims in court for holiday pay . Some were won some lost, this was all brought on by the union, however subbys fought back with a vengence and found loopholes in  the system with fancy lawers.
Now i dont know if they have tied it up now, but as i said goverment want to make it easier
to give jobs.
So i say to those that have been EMPLOYED DIRECT in the past or present, dont know how GOOD THEY HAVE HAD IT,  OR HAVE IT. unless u have a business with good contracts how could u ever honour holiday pay etc with  window cleaning, not including the big boys of course.
Alan

[AS Window Cleaning]

Maybe I have this wrong but I personally believe that you dont allow your staff's personal circumstances to influence what you pay them, this can encourage employers to pay as little as they can get away with, but you pay them what they are worth; fair days wage for a fair days work. If the minimum wage didnt exist you'd see loads of guys on here probably paying something in the region of £4.00 an hour. Not that they'd admit it of course.

excellent post Matt. I personally am a believer in looking after anyone who works with me.

all seems like to much hassle to employ someone,  wanted some in full time   so rip threw the work and then go knocking,  but might just stay on my own  and dump the jobs i dont want,  its got to be easier

I would look long and hard about employing. from the many, in all industries I know who have done it, many have gone back to 1 man bands as its so much less hassle, and itsao easy to make very little more for the extra hassle. don't get me wrong, it can be done. but is it worth it Mr vader?

I'm lucky, I know a young lad who works with me self employed. a day here or there, he works for a few friends too, and is registered self employed. I trust him 100%, look after him, and he looks after me. I pay him around 70/80 per day. with the off extra 10 or 20 on amazing days.

[Pope vader]

been out this morning doin g afew jobs,  and gone back to using a old dual trim superlite with pencils and to be honest i enjoyed it,  no more cathing the brush on stuff,  so might not employ,  but see what happens

[Paul Coleman]

morning all,hi bobby its the fsb ,no gala dinners,for me anyway, they put no work your way, but no ongoing costs.
There are benefits, legal insurance included,  advice if employees try to sue you etc, employment help, regs etc, if anyone does employ they should become a member, have look into it everyone.
hi santa, it would be similer to cis but i dont know exactly, just what fsb told me.
because of unemployment the goverment wish to make it easier to employ without actualy
employing them direct. it was a new eu directive some yrs back that tried to change the rules on self employment and stated that ,if a sub contracter, AND THIS IS THE WORD HERE, sub contracter.That if they set the time of work etc,      But the big one was if YOU could not offer someone else to carry out the work on your behalf, that had been contracted to u personly. THEN YOU WHERE AN EMPLOYEE.
As you can imagine this sent tidal waves through  the industry, many claims in court for holiday pay . Some were won some lost, this was all brought on by the union, however subbys fought back with a vengence and found loopholes in  the system with fancy lawers.
Now i dont know if they have tied it up now, but as i said goverment want to make it easier
to give jobs.
So i say to those that have been EMPLOYED DIRECT in the past or present, dont know how GOOD THEY HAVE HAD IT,  OR HAVE IT. unless u have a business with good contracts how could u ever honour holiday pay etc with  window cleaning, not including the big boys of course.
Alan

If I were to go to the letter of your post, technically I would be an employee for the bit of subbing I do on day work.  The contractor states what time I should be there (though there is a bit of leeway).  He also decides when I can go (though we can vary this by mutual agreement if circumstances are unusual).  Also, it's me he wants there (rather than someone I nominate) because he knows I don't mess the job about and he knows that I have the experience to work within his customer's on-site safety regulations (these exceed the ones laid down in govt. H & S directives).  As someone who is used to doing their own thing it can feel a bit controlling but I can live with it for one day per quarter.
It would be very difficult to classify me as someone's employee for four days per year.

[mike roberts]

Fsb .... have been members for yrs but be carefull with their spiel regarding self employed....
was a subby for yrs ...design contractor the law was changed or introduced IR35  to try to stop individuals working as ltd companies and claiming salary as dividends. One reason i left contracting some guys even tried off shore accounts and failed!

Lots of test cases went to court very few were won via FSB... if someone is working for you more than say part time they are usually classed as employed.. personally I would only take them on as employed (you supply van, tools and tell them which houses to clean - you dont tell them how to clean but christ we all agree its not rocket science ... if we could not get away with it in the past engineering no chance cleaning!)   if they investigate you .. well good luck ... you have FSB backup but last thing I would want is HMRC all over you!!
NOT that we operate anything but legally but they rip thro everything records records!!
Good luck

Still think FSB is worthwhile  

[bobby p]

i will look into the FSB then,once im into 2012 . im pleased to hear its not an endless round of suppers and dinner parties/lounge suits etc   where i have to fork out for.  cheers for the info

[H S and Son]

Im a member of the FSB. Never been to any of their organised get to-gethers. For me they have other benefits; those regarding taxation, thats why I became a member.

[Window Washers]

Im a member of the FSB. Never been to any of their organised get to-gethers. For me they have other benefits; those regarding taxation, thats why I became a member.

i have nver used it either, but I am a member, I signed up by mistake I thought it was for national fed of window cleaners at the time lol