Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: williamx on February 28, 2010, 11:22:50 am
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For the last 5 years there have been many arguments and confusion on how the Working at Heights Directive applies to the “Window Cleaner” who is suppose to comply with them.
I suggest that we “Window Cleaners” write our own “WHAH”, we can then set it out in a way that all of us understand and hopefully the majority will agree to.
If this can be done then maybe the HSE will take notice.
I will start off with my view of the “WHAD”.
1 Ladders are NOT Banned from being used, but the following must be applied firstly, before they can be taken as an option to clean windows.
2 There cannot be a time limit when using a ladder, because to set one could encourage the window cleaner to work faster and therefore they could have an accident.
3 If the windows can be cleaned using alternative methods, you cannot use the excuse that I have not got the equipment or licence, so I can use ladders, instead, you will have to use this alternative method.
4 When a window cleaner is asked to clean a property, they must do a risk assessment on what equipment to use and what risks there might be involved in carrying out the job, on future cleans this assessment can be updated to any new risks that apply to this property.
5 If you are using ladders, you must take a 15 minute break between each job.
6 If you are using ladders, they must be in good working condition and have all safety devices used with them.
These are a few of the rules that I would suggest.
I would also like the government to have a scheme, where they can help with financing the purchase of the wfp equipment to those window cleaners who don’t have it. This scheme only applies to ladder window cleaners who are already working.
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why dont they just ban ladders its that simple,
becasue if they followed the rules there, then u would be lucky 2 get to jobs an hour done,
i dont think it will every happen as you will get some idiot claim it is effecting his right to earn money under the human righrs act, even if they dont ban ladders, do they set a height at which they can be used
until they make the industry more proffessional ie all licencsed and registered with insurance and training, then ladders will always be used
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Maybe the use of ladders should be licenced and on-going training applied.
as for the human rights to earn a living, their human rights to work safely, without the risk of serious injury or death might be more important.
Remember the majority of falls from ladders are by people who have been using them for years.
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My staff are licenced, professional, insured and well trained. Yet we still use ladders. With no problems.
A number of reasons I would go out of business if I where to use a waterfed pole, ok, maybe not out of business but loss a fortune.
1. There is only about 20% of my jobs that I could do using a waterfed pole mostly due to difficult parking, and trolleys are not an option due to the heavy lifting, or time wasted filling on site - if there was a water suply which would be unlikely.
2. The additional expensence, of both having the equipment, and lugging it about in the van, cost of petrol.
3. The insurance implications, and also the risk of vans being stollen if I am working out of a van mount.
4. I stay in a flat 3 storeys up and wountn't be able to get that amount of water in my van each day anyway, and stand pipes are to expensive.
5. I wouldn't make my job risk free, how many times have I read on here people complaining of back problems with this method, danger of overhead cables, or slipping hazards associated with it.
6. The results are not as good and customers may not be happy paying for it. You can say all you want that you can get crusty birds crap of will a WFP but I don't beleive that for one minute plus there is you tube vids of the WC Training academy saying you cant.
Ok now on to your rules
Good point on number 2, agreed
Number 3 is crazy, I dont agree, there is health and safety risk associated with WFP and the idea that it elimates the risk is not true, and cant at times be used on all jobs. WC's shouldnt be forced to take out loans to pay for WFP equipement, when it can be done safely from a ladder, as long as common sense is applied.
Number 4, we already do risk assessments on all jobs
Number 5, why?
Number 6, all safety devices fitted? that should read be used if required, if thats the case ladders will end up looking like swiss army knives as for every device produced would have to be used? bonkers!
WFP is not a suitable replacement to ladders in my opinion, I have done extensive research on it, and it falls on loads of hurdles. They should be used hand in hand with ladders, as they dont suit all jobs.
How many of WFP users carry ladders as well?
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I am not saying that wfp is better than ladders, but wfp is a lot safer.
I would diagree with you on how good a wfp system is at cleaning windows, I have removed all types of stuff from windows using wfp ie bird crap, paint, window sealant, limescale and eggs, yesterday I removed goose bird poop from windows that where 60 high, I know that I had done this because they where the staircase windows which I could inspect from the inside, as with all ladder cleaners I use various attachments and chemicals when I am faced with these problems.
I know that I do a good job with wfp because I do not advertise anymore, yet my phone rings every week with new customers who want to join my list, most of my customers have been approached by other window cleaners both wfp and ladder, yet they are still with me, it cannot be because of cost because I am a lot more expensive than them.
Wfp does not eliminate all risks, but it does reduce or elimanate some, for instance you cannot fall from height.
The majority of accidents in any trade happen because the worker rushes his workload, by him having to take a break between jobs, this should slow him down.
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so u would be happy for people you employ to finish a house then have a 15 break then do an other house and have a break and so on
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It is better than having to tell his wife and kids that he had a accident and had died.
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can i have a job please lol
its a idea, but i dont think that it will ever work
ladders will never be fully banned, wfp is just an other option, if forcing wc to be wfp only u will end up with more people on ebay flogging there van and machines after 6 months, not wanting to be wc, or u will end up with more beer money wc, because how will they police it,
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have a 15 minute break between each job?what aload of crap!
i think we should all be allowed to use ladders anyway we want.ive a ladderstopper and mitts on mine and if its very slippy or awkward i use an extension pole!
although i am going to change over to wfp in the future for about 80% of my round i will still use ladders;
1. up and over garages/flat roofs
2.granny one bed flats(i clean about 30 of them but not all the downstairs flats)the frames are oxidized as well.
3.cleaning conny roofs.
4.climbing over locked gates
5.badly flakey old wooden frames.
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15 minute break between jobs, you are having a laugh, for people using trad method they would end up working about 3 hours a day. What a load of bull!!!
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What, if, how, who, when, but, yes, no, why, up, down, round and round we go
(http://www.irancartoon.com/100/swf/fun_spiral.gif)
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im sick of hearing about all this health and safety rubbish!
how many people fall off and die?not many!granted most of us have fell off once or twice or had a few near misses!
its the chance we all take and if we fall off its just tough!im alot more careful and sensible these days but youll never eliminate ALL risk.
i do think i will be safer when i go wfp but i dont think you should have to!
if you want to go up ladders then do it! ;) ;D
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1. up and over garages/flat roofs
I can still reach the majority of windows with my pole.
2.granny one bed flats(i clean about 30 of them but not all the downstairs flats)the frames are oxidized as well.
I still clean them, if the downstairs complain, I point out it the same when it rains.
3.cleaning conny roofs.
Never had a problem
4.climbing over locked gates
I always telephone my customers the night before, so they can unlock these gates, I also have spare keys for the ones who don't want them left unlocked.
5.badly flakey old wooden frames
Just clean the glass.
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The HSE say that there are 60 deaths and thousands of injuries suffered every year from ladder falls.
You might be sick of the heath and safety rules, but they are not going to go away.
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The HSE say that there are 60 deaths and thousands of injuries suffered every year from ladder falls.
You might be sick of the heath and safety rules, but they are not going to go away.
how many of these are actually window cleaners falling whilst doing there job,
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i just dont believe how you can clean a conservatory roof without a pointer/step ladders etc.
ive cleaned a few in my time and im 6ft 2in and ALWAYS needed to get up a few rungs to reach the back of the roof near the wall if theres a fence and no access to next door.
how can you clean flats with badly oxidized frames without doing a crap job and dropping milky white water on the flat downstairs that you dont clean?
as for 60 wc falling off ladders every year and dying thats just tough luck.thats life im afraid!
i do text/phone some custys up about locked gates but sometimes they forget or i forget!time to split the ladders!! ;D ;D
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dazmond the 60 deaths a year is every body, including old biddies change a light bulb on a foot stool ladder
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1. up and over garages/flat roofs
I can still reach the majority of windows with my pole.
2.granny one bed flats(i clean about 30 of them but not all the downstairs flats)the frames are oxidized as well.
I still clean them, if the downstairs complain, I point out it the same when it rains.
3.cleaning conny roofs.
Never had a problem
4.climbing over locked gates
I always telephone my customers the night before, so they can unlock these gates, I also have spare keys for the ones who don't want them left unlocked.
5.badly flakey old wooden frames
Just clean the glass.
The trouble is, your points are all "me" "I" "mine" "my"
You have to remember that's only your round, with your customers & your circumstances!
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just got this off H and S web site
between 2 and 7 get killed every year because of ladders in GB between 20 - 30 suffer major injuries
considering how many wc there are it is not a lot getting injured
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What I do think would be a good idea though is that window cleaners should need a liscence for ladder use. To gain this they would have to attend a basic training course on the safe use of ladders & their maintenance.
We are all blessed with varying degrees of common sense & experience so the above would be a great benefit to the industry IMO.
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There are about 3000 deaths a year on the road. So window cleaning is relatively safe compared to driving. We all do that and don't tend to worry too much. We need to saty safe, but keep it all in perspective.
Perhaps the safest way to ensure you get home is to walk your ladders everywhere? :)
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The HSE say that there are 60 deaths and thousands of injuries suffered every year from ladder falls.
You might be sick of the heath and safety rules, but they are not going to go away.
how many of these are actually window cleaners falling whilst doing there job,
I don't know the figures, I have seen on the HSE website in the past that 12 window cleaners have died from falls from ladders, but if it is preventable why does one even have to die
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The HSE say that there are 60 deaths and thousands of injuries suffered every year from ladder falls.
You might be sick of the heath and safety rules, but they are not going to go away.
how many of these are actually window cleaners falling whilst doing there job,
I don't know the figures, I have seen on the HSE website in the past that 12 window cleaners have died from falls from ladders, but if it is preventable why does one even have to die
It comes down to risk Vs economy.
If you were to have a road accident (of which there is a greater chance of happening than falling off your ladder) which vehicle would you choose to have it in, given the choice (which you have)
A. a mini (cost 13k)
B. a rangerover ? (cost 40k)
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The HSE say that there are 60 deaths and thousands of injuries suffered every year from ladder falls.
You might be sick of the heath and safety rules, but they are not going to go away.
how many of these are actually window cleaners falling whilst doing there job,
I don't know the figures, I have seen on the HSE website in the past that 12 window cleaners have died from falls from ladders, but if it is preventable why does one even have to die
It comes down to risk Vs economy.
If you were to have a road accident (of which there is a greater chance of happening than falling off your ladder) which vehicle would you choose to have it in, given the choice (which you have)
A. a mini (cost 13k)
B. a rangerover ? (cost 40k)
A Tank (cost £30 million)
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The HSE say that there are 60 deaths and thousands of injuries suffered every year from ladder falls.
You might be sick of the heath and safety rules, but they are not going to go away.
how many of these are actually window cleaners falling whilst doing there job,
I don't know the figures, I have seen on the HSE website in the past that 12 window cleaners have died from falls from ladders, but if it is preventable why does one even have to die
It comes down to risk Vs economy.
If you were to have a road accident (of which there is a greater chance of happening than falling off your ladder) which vehicle would you choose to have it in, given the choice (which you have)
A. a mini (cost 13k)
B. a rangerover ? (cost 40k)
A Tank (cost £30 million)
Would you like your liscence revoked untill you can afford such?
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The basic cost to go wfp is less than £250 (backpack and di tank- resin and pole) what is the cost of a decent set of ladders, not the ones available at B&Q?
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The basic cost to go wfp is less than £250 (backpack and di tank- resin and pole) what is the cost of a decent set of ladders, not the ones available at B&Q?
I would like nothing more than to set up using WFP, but I am going to have to go down the trad route first, because I simply can`t set up a purification unit in my flat ???
I did ask a relation, but they won`t allow me to do it on their property.
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If you use a DI system you can leave this in your vechicle and fill up at your customers homes, if they are not on a meter they normally will allow you to.
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If you use a DI system you can leave this in your vechicle and fill up at your customers homes, if they are not on a meter they normally will allow you to.
I have briefly looked into this, & I am in a hard water area, so need the RO system aswell, I think?
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Even though you are in a hard water area you can still use a di only system, it will cost you more in resin but when you set your prices, this should reflect the cost.
The goverment have made a pledge that all households will be on a water meter, so the windpw cleaner who uses a ro system will have this extra cost to budget for when they go on a meter.
In all businesses you have to look at the costs to do the work against the price you charge.
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Even though you are in a hard water area you can still use a di only system, it will cost you more in resin but when you set your prices, this should reflect the cost.
The goverment have made a pledge that all households will be on a water meter, so the windpw cleaner who uses a ro system will have this extra cost to budget for when they go on a meter.
In all businesses you have to look at the costs to do the work against the price you charge.
Hi again,
Thanks, I will have a look into how I go about doing this then.
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Hard water area will eat resin. If he has to reflect this cost in his prices then he is at a disadvantage with his competition right away.
Can't rely on customers outside tap as in winter they're all turned off.
Cost of wfp is not the only factor here.
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Even though you are in a hard water area you can still use a di only system, it will cost you more in resin but when you set your prices, this should reflect the cost.
The goverment have made a pledge that all households will be on a water meter, so the windpw cleaner who uses a ro system will have this extra cost to budget for when they go on a meter.
In all businesses you have to look at the costs to do the work against the price you charge.
Hi again,
Thanks, I will have a look into how I go about doing this then.
You also can look at the speed of the work you do, with ladders especially if you are just starting out are a lot slower than using wfp, you also are limited on some of the work you can do, for example I cleaned 3 properties yesterday.
I live in Birmingham and the 1st job was in Kegworth, 39 miles away, it comprised of the communal windows on 3 apartment blocks which where 3 storeys high both inside and out.
The inside where done tradinational while the outsides I used a backpack, because it was easier and more time effective to do so.
The next job was in Ruddighton, Nottingham, 9 miles away, this was 4 apartment blocks with all the outside windows and the internal communal windows to be cleaned, this was also 3 storey high.
The next was in Grantham 29 miles away, this was a huge mill which has been converted into flats. The highest window was 40', but with the reach, I needed a 60' pole.
I left Birmingham at 10.00 and I finshed at Grantham at 17.00hrs, and I charged the customer £305.
This could not be done with a ladder
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Ok, I have two points to add, no sorry three.
1. Hydro is you use additives that can take the paint of glass, what is to stop it from taking the paint of the frames, or the painted brick work, and killing anything growing in the garden as well because lets face it if it can remove paint from glass, its probably a good weed killer as well.
Secondly I know that the ionics systems are pretty well secured and have seen some good DIY systems as well, but if we outlaw ladders, we should also outlaw all the WFP systems that are secured with straps, i.e. the £300 set-ups. Because the guy will have to tell his kids, sorry I am not coming home, I was in a car crash I could have survived in as I was wearing a seatbelt, but I was crushed to death with a 300ltr baffled tank of water.
Thirdly, I currently do spend a number of hours training with employees on using ladders and safety devices. However I would agree to a safety course with a certificate or licence to say that you have attended.
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Sorry one more, if everyone moved over to WFP there would inevitably be less window cleaners.
If I have 300 custies, and do then trad, I will make less money, if I do the same custies WFP due to expenditure, so I would need more custies to make the same amount of profit.
So if there was only 900 potential custies in all of the uk, there could be three window cleaners trad, or three window cleaners WFP struggling to make a living, and inevitably one will go. So less jobs.
Although everyone says there is plenty of work out there, we are on here complaining about the number of newbies bringing down prices, and we know that the true is there is only so much the market can hold.
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Ok, I have two points to add, no sorry three.
1. Hydro is you use additives that can take the paint of glass, what is to stop it from taking the paint of the frames, or the painted brick work, and killing anything growing in the garden as well because lets face it if it can remove paint from glass, its probably a good weed killer as well.
For paint I use a scraper the same as a ladder cleaner, I also use Oil Flo or T-Cut which is excellent on removing window sealant, limescale and bird crap.
Secondly I know that the ionics systems are pretty well secured and have seen some good DIY systems as well, but if we outlaw ladders, we should also outlaw all the WFP systems that are secured with straps, i.e. the £300 set-ups. Because the guy will have to tell his kids, sorry I am not coming home, I was in a car crash I could have survived in as I was wearing a seatbelt, but I was crashed to death with a 300ltr baffled tank of water.
In December I crashed and wrote off my van, the water tank was racheted down with the same rachets that lorry drivers use, the result, the van was totalled, the hose reel took a trip around the inside of the van and broke a few things, me and the passengers I was carrying where fine and the water tank did not move 1mm. The insurance company have paid out for everything.
Thirdly, I currently do spend a number of hours training with employees on using ladders and safety devices. However I would agree to a safety course with a certificate or licence to say that you have attended.
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you use a scraper on top of a 20 foot pole?
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Don't you want to ban cars and vans. You wear very lucky as a lot of window cleaners have been when they had a fall. I agree there is a risk that we should limit were we can. But there is a risk in everything, including WFP. I am sure there is plenty of WC who can say I fell of my ladder and didn't die! and I would say to them they were very lucky as well.
Yes it eliminates the risk of a fall, but adds the risk of electrocution, and increases the risk when in car accidents.
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you use a scraper on top of a 20 foot pole?
I sometimes use a 80' pole, I am still looking for that 100' job.
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Yes it eliminates the risk of a fall, but adds the risk of electrocution, and increases the risk when in car accidents.
They use wfp in America all the time and they don't seem to be having any problems with this.
Having a set of ladder tied down on a roof rack are also dangerous if in a car accident if they come loose and are projected into a load of people
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you use a scraper on top of a 20 foot pole?
I sometimes use a 80' pole, I am still looking for that 100' job.
i would love to see how you use a scraper on a 8o ft pole i have tried at 40 ft and it was useless, also how was the scraper fastened if it was just pushed on as i presume it would be as i havnt seen a scraper with a threaded handle then that would be extremely dangerous.
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I agree that the higher you go the more difficult it can be to remove marks from windows, but it is not impossible.
I do have various joint adapters with different tools attached that I screw onto the end of the pole instead of the brush for when the need requires.
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Which pole do you use at 80ft?
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I agree that the higher you go the more difficult it can be to remove marks from windows, but it is not impossible.
I do have various joint adapters with different tools attached that I screw onto the end of the pole instead of the brush for when the need requires.
at 80ft using a scraper it is impossible and if attempted you could cause serious damage to surrounding frames due to lack of controll plus scratches to glass could easily occur using this method, unless you can post a video of this being done then i just dont believe you.
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I agree that the higher you go the more difficult it can be to remove marks from windows, but it is not impossible.
I do have various joint adapters with different tools attached that I screw onto the end of the pole instead of the brush for when the need requires.
at 80ft using a scraper it is impossible and if attempted you could cause serious damage to surrounding frames due to lack of controll plus scratches to glass could easily occur using this method, unless you can post a video of this being done then i just dont believe you.
The window or frame would be the least of his worries using a scraper on the end of an 80ft pole! :o
Ladders suddenly seem very safe! :D
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which pair of binoculars at 80' with a small scraper attached.
I agree complete with your point about the ladders on the roof, there is danger in that also.
But I am not saying that water fed pole is useless, just not suitable for every situation, and in turn there are situations when ladders are no good and WFP would be the only alternative, unless its low enough down which you could just use a trad pole.
My point, is trad poles, ladders, and WFP, even craddles and absailers have there place in the industry, and all come with there pro's and con's, and you cant just say because x amount of people die from using ladders we shouldnt use them. We dont walk every where because people die is car accidents that is reiculus we wouldn't get out of bed in the morning.
You could say that for every window that could be turned in, you should not be using water fed poles because of the dangers associated with that. But that also would be ridiculous.
When I said on the other pole that window cleaners and users of ladders should have wrote the laws governing the use of them, I didn't mean someone who only uses a WFP for every possible scenario, even if its as ridiculous as puting a blade on top of a 80' pole, rather than, going up turning it in and doing it properly and avoid scratching the customers window.
Regardless of the pro and cons of ladders and WFP , your points on governing the use of them are ridiculous and its is clear that you dont use them to clean windows, as maybe then you would see how crazy some of you points are.
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Training
FWC do accredited safety courses in
WFP and ladders
Risk assesment
Both IOSH accredited
Problem solved
Sorry would leave the WAHR to the experts and not what you think they mean
Bryan
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On 100% of domestic homes 99% of the windows can be cleaned without the need of a ladder.
The 1% of these windows that cannot be cleaned using a wfp, can be adapted to open from the inside of the house and then cleaned safely.
If there are any windows that cannot be adapted, why can you not say "sorry that pane of glass cannot be cleaned".
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To be fair, anyone who trys to write the rules will have one or two points picked at. To to level the field, here is what I would put as the guidance rules.
When not to use a ladder
1. Windy conditions, if winds are light and work can continue, never leave a ladder unattended especially when extended and lay the ladder flat on the ground when working away from it to avoid it being blown over.
2. Only to be used on suitable surfaces.
Examples of surfaces that would be dangerous
1. marbel floors(however ladder matts can be put down to work on this)
2. Wet decking (depending on how bad mats could be used)
3. icy roads or pavements.
4. steep slopes, or grassy verges.
5. Not to be used on unstable e.g. rubble, boulders.
Caution to be used in rain due to additional slipping hazards.
When setting a ladder
1. The correct 1/4 angle should be used with a little give either way but only buy 3/4 degrees either way, but never extreamly steep or sallow.
2. If it is slightly windy not that bad that you have to stop, do one of two things
1. Rack it tightly under the sill that over hangs at the base of the window, to stop it being blown either from one side to another.
2. Rack it within the frame of the window, to stop it being blown over.
3. Always ensure that the top two feet have level contact, and the bottom tow feet have level contact. Use a wedge or other leveling equipment to ensure this is followed.
Climbing, working on and decending the ladder
1. Use good foot wear with good grip.
2. Always hold the rungs and, never slide you hands down the rails as you descend, or ascend.
3. When working on the ladder never over reach, and use small hand held extensions instead.
4. If the window is tall, always rack above the window to avoid you having to over reach also
5. Keep three points of contact while working on the ladder.
Working on flat roofs
1. Rack the ladder 1 meter above the shelf of the roof
2. never stand on a rung above the point where the ladder contacts the shelf of the roof.
3. Never use ladders in this manor if there are winds to blow the ladder over while you leave it unattended. In this instance you would have to secure it or have someone foot it.
Maintaining and checking your ladder
1. Feet should always be replaced before the grip fades
2. Ladders should be regularly checked to ensure there is not damage that would cause the ladder to fail
3. If there is damage to a ladder, bent rails, rungs damaged(not just scraped - damaged to the point they could break) or missing. The ladders should be replaced.
what height?
No higher than 30 feet, however this is only to allow you to rack above tall windows, and you yourself(your head, not your feet) should not be higher than 30 feet from the bottom of the ladder.
You want to add anything, pick at a few points feel free!
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On 100% of domestic homes 99% of the windows can be cleaned without the need of a ladder.
The 1% of these windows that cannot be cleaned using a wfp, can be adapted to open from the inside of the house and then cleaned safely.
If there are any windows that cannot be adapted, why can you not say "sorry that pane of glass cannot be cleaned".
So, which pole do you use at 80ft then?
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Sorry would leave the WAHR to the experts and not what you think they mean
Bryan
Bryan
The experts have created this situation.
The WHAD is a directive of confusion because it covers all types of ladder use, what it needs is clarity when applied to the window cleaning trade.
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On 100% of domestic homes 99% of the windows can be cleaned without the need of a ladder.
The 1% of these windows that cannot be cleaned using a wfp, can be adapted to open from the inside of the house and then cleaned safely.
If there are any windows that cannot be adapted, why can you not say "sorry that pane of glass cannot be cleaned".
So, which pole do you use at 80ft then?
The Sl2 from Gardiners and the Slx on most of the 3 storey houses, with a 21' extel pole for rest of my work.
But I also have various other poles ranging from 10 inches to 12 feet
I am about to give them their weekly bath and mainternance check
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On 100% of domestic homes 99% of the windows can be cleaned without the need of a ladder.
The 1% of these windows that cannot be cleaned using a wfp, can be adapted to open from the inside of the house and then cleaned safely.
If there are any windows that cannot be adapted, why can you not say "sorry that pane of glass cannot be cleaned".
So, which pole do you use at 80ft then?
The Sl2 from Gardiners and the Slx on most of the 3 storey houses, with a 21' extel pole for rest of my work.
But I also have various other poles ranging from 10 inches to 12 feet
But Gardiners recommend you do not use the SL2 above 60ft, it's stated on their website. Where would that working practice fit into health & safety?
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They also don't say that it is dangerous to do so either.
I also have strict safety controls in place when I do work at this height.
The working area and also the area from falling equipment is cordened off.
I never work in high winds
I wear a hard hat and hi-vis
I never clean side to side, instead I go up and then clean downwards.
I have a break every 30 mintues
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They also don't say that it is dangerous to do so either
I think their statement of "if you own the 60ft sl2 we don't recommend you add any more sections" sums it up. Does this mean you are ignoring the manufacturers recommendations with your working practices?
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Like you said it is a Recommendation not a rule.
Car manufacturers make cars that can travel 200mph yet they don't say that you have to travel this fast.
at the moment there is no law that stops me from working at this height.
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That's near on brilliant ladder guard. No way did you write that, but respect to you for posting it. A sensible practicle guide.
That's what we've been asking for!!!
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Like you said it is a Recommendation not a rule.
Car manufacturers make cars that can travel 200mph yet they don't say that you have to travel this fast.
at the moment there is no law that stops me from working at this height.
There is no law to stop people using ladders, you don't use them but think you have a right to tell others that they shouldn't?
You are using equipment in a way not recommended by it's manufacturer, you are contradicting yourself here matey. ;)
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That's near on brilliant ladder guard. No way did you write that, but respect to you for posting it. A sensible practicle guide.
That's what we've been asking for!!!
I totally agree, its clear, straight to the point, & simple!
I don`t know why they don`t just make it compulsory to obtain "a" basic ladder training certificate?
They should have "a" course, run by "one" organisation, & it nationally recognised, rather than having so many groups offering different "ladder safety training" courses, which amounts to so much confusion.
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Like you said it is a Recommendation not a rule.
Car manufacturers make cars that can travel 200mph yet they don't say that you have to travel this fast.
at the moment there is no law that stops me from working at this height.
There is no law to stop people using ladders, you don't use them but think you have a right to tell others that they shouldn't?
You are using equipment in a way not recommended by it's manufacturer, you are contradicting yourself here matey. ;)
No there is no law about using ladders, even though the WHAD say you must first look at an alternative method first.
The crunch will come when someone falls and gets injured or killed. you then will be asked to explain why you did not use a pole or even wfp if it was an option.
The same applies to me, I would have to explain how and why I thought this was the safest method to clean that property.
Even though I do not now use ladders (why should I if I don't need to) but when I first started 32 years ago I did, and they weren't your lightweight "ali" ones either, I also had to carry and these to my round as well, because I did not have transport.
But I can tell you this, if I was aware of the wfp system then, I would never have used a ladder
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These are the WHAD directives for window cleaners from the HSE web site, I bet that no window cleaner in the country adheres to them on every single job they do.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/window.htm
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Like you said it is a Recommendation not a rule.
Car manufacturers make cars that can travel 200mph yet they don't say that you have to travel this fast.
at the moment there is no law that stops me from working at this height.
There is no law to stop people using ladders, you don't use them but think you have a right to tell others that they shouldn't?
You are using equipment in a way not recommended by it's manufacturer, you are contradicting yourself here matey. ;)
No there is no law about using ladders, even though the WHAD say you must first look at an alternative method first.
The crunch will come when someone falls and gets injured or killed. you then will be asked to explain why you did not use a pole or even wfp if it was an option.
The same applies to me, I would have to explain how and why I thought this was the safest method to clean that property.
Even though I do not now use ladders (why should I if I don't need to) but when I first started 32 years ago I did, and they weren't your lightweight "ali" ones either, I also had to carry and these to my round as well, because I did not have transport.
But I can tell you this, if I was aware of the wfp system then, I would never have used a ladder
The crunch will also come when there is an accident using a pole in the way you do, you'll be on your own with no manufacturer support, even if it snaps due to a manufacturing fault because you haven't followed the manufacturers recommendations.
It seems no one wants to hear or clarify this situation, rather just brush it under the carpet like it was in another thread some time ago. I personally think it's a very dodgy situation & if an accident did happen it would land the operator or owner of the company in trouble.
In your shoes I'd be more worried about this than anything to do with others using a ladder. ;)
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Proving you have put in place safety procudures then you are covered, if one of my poles snapped at height and I have had one do this, the broken pole fell down into the safety zone I have placed around my working area.
I always look on "Murphys Law" when I do anything.
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"No there is no law about using ladders, even though the WHAD say you must first look at an alternative method first."
There is a law and yes its a law, that governs the use of ladders, thats why Michael Mills were fined £3000 and cost for using a unsecured ladder, as it was against the law, that was passed in parliament that 99 of ladder users ignore and the H & S dont prosecute enough.
As someone said before its £250 for a full WFP system, and its quicker than trad, let the idiots fall and clean 2 days slower a week
idealrob
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The 30 min thing is just unrealistic, thats why people dont follow it. Also it does nothing to prevent someone falling from a ladder.
I see the you do anything enough you could become complacent but in that case, we should drive a car for more than 30 mins. Pilots and captains of ships will have to take breaks every 30 mins.
Come on, inst that just another example of why we need realist clear rules that cant be misinterpreted.
Its the whole thing again, 30 mins per rack or per job, not clear and not realistic.
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Pilots and captains of ships will have to take breaks every 30 mins.
Come on, inst that just another example of why we need realist clear rules that cant be misinterpreted.
Its the whole thing again, 30 mins per rack or per job, not clear and not realistic.
Pilots don't fly the planes, computers do, yet they still have to take rest breaks when the co pilot takes over
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"No there is no law about using ladders, even though the WHAD say you must first look at an alternative method first."
There is a law and yes its a law, that governs the use of ladders, thats why Michael Mills were fined £3000 and cost for using a unsecured ladder, as it was against the law, that was passed in parliament that 99 of ladder users ignore and the H & S dont prosecute enough.
As someone said before its £250 for a full WFP system, and its quicker than trad, let the idiots fall and clean 2 days slower a week
idealrob
There is way more cost impliations than that. Who is only going to use one bag of resin per year, or one pole that last all, year. Wasn't there a thread a while back about poles having to be changed every 3/4 months? Then what about the insurance cost, water cost, petrol costs. It all eats into profits that will put a strain of a business if they dont get more work to pay for the extra cost.
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"No there is no law about using ladders, even though the WHAD say you must first look at an alternative method first."
There is a law and yes its a law, that governs the use of ladders, thats why Michael Mills were fined £3000 and cost for using a unsecured ladder, as it was against the law, that was passed in parliament that 99 of ladder users ignore and the H & S dont prosecute enough.
As someone said before its £250 for a full WFP system, and its quicker than trad, let the idiots fall and clean 2 days slower a week
Its cost about £200 a year in costs, scrim wears out as do ladders, wash leathers and you can die or get seriously injured and as the advert for H & S says "shattered lives"
Its 2 days quicker. fact
what do you think of carpet cleaning, buying machines, detergents etc or a shop and rent , rates staff, running costs etc and you moan about £4 a week. it 2010 not 1910
get real
idealrob
idealrob
There is way more cost impliations than that. Who is only going to use one bag of resin per year, or one pole that last all, year. Wasn't there a thread a while back about poles having to be changed every 3/4 months? Then what about the insurance cost, water cost, petrol costs. It all eats into profits that will put a strain of a business if they dont get more work to pay for the extra cost.
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"No there is no law about using ladders, even though the WHAD say you must first look at an alternative method first."
There is a law and yes its a law, that governs the use of ladders, thats why Michael Mills were fined £3000 and cost for using a unsecured ladder, as it was against the law, that was passed in parliament that 99 of ladder users ignore and the H & S dont prosecute enough.
As someone said before its £250 for a full WFP system, and its quicker than trad, let the idiots fall and clean 2 days slower a week
idealrob
There is way more cost impliations than that. Who is only going to use one bag of resin per year, or one pole that last all, year. Wasn't there a thread a while back about poles having to be changed every 3/4 months? Then what about the insurance cost, water cost, petrol costs. It all eats into profits that will put a strain of a business if they dont get more work to pay for the extra cost.
I have a pole that is 7 years old, my sl2 is almost 12 months so they are cost effective, insurance you don't need if you are a sole trader, but what makes you think that the insurance will pay up if the is a ladder accident, they will decline your claim while pointint to the WHAD. There is a water cost if you are on a meter but not if you are not and as for petrol, well that effects everyone of us and it still kepts on rising and we still kept on trading.
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its about time we stopped going over and over this, seems to crop up every other week, mighty boring now, bloody groundhog day
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I was meaning vehicle insurance, if you tell your insurers over the phone that you have a 300ltr baffled tank in the back secured with straps, they may not cover you.
There was a thread a while back saying that insurers were insisting it be safety checked, i.e. a 10k ionics system.
that pole that lasted you 7 years would have costs more than £250 alone let alone anything else.
Also yes we have to deal with petrol but if you are carry 300 ltrs of water, your car will use allot more petrol than a trad window cleaner, also the vehicle will wear more, i.e. tyres etc.
I really don't want to go through all the pro and cons of trad and WFP again, only get across that they both have pros and cons and should go hand in hand.
And as for rules on using a ladder, it should be someone who will be realistic about what people can do within the economic restrains of there business. If we dont concider the economic implications, no one would be able to work. All jobs carry risk. Police men, traffic wardens, bin men, taxi drivers, construction workers, demolition contractors, on and on and on....
If you cant be sensible and realistic and most of all clear, there is no point trying to impose any rule.
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I was meaning vehicle insurance, if you tell your insurers over the phone that you have a 300ltr baffled tank in the back secured with straps, they may not cover you.
My van insurance costs me £380 per year including pole/tools cover, they paid out £4300 this month on the accident I had in December. They knew that the water tank was strap in because their expect inspected the van, in fact they did not query it.
There was a thread a while back saying that insurers were insisting it be safety checked, i.e. a 10k ionics system.
that pole that lasted you 7 years would have costs more than £250 alone let alone anything else.
It was a unger telepole cost less than £100
Also yes we have to deal with petrol but if you are carry 300 ltrs of water, your car will use allot more petrol than a trad window cleaner, also the vehicle will wear more, i.e. tyres etc.
I don't know about that but I am getting between 35 and 40 to the gallon and I have a 650 litre water tank
I really don't want to go through all the pro and cons of trad and WFP again, only get across that they both have pros and cons and should go hand in hand.
And as for rules on using a ladder, it should be someone who will be realistic about what people can do within the economic restrains of there business. If we dont concider the economic implications, no one would be able to work. All jobs carry risk. Police men, traffic wardens, bin men, taxi drivers, construction workers, demolition contractors, on and on and on....
If you can be sensible and realistic and most of all clear, there is no point trying to impose any rule.
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its about time we stopped going over and over this, seems to crop up every other week, mighty boring now, bloody groundhog day
What i do, if it was me who started the thread, is have a good long say and then lock the topic so no one can contradict me.The problem with leaving it open is that there are about four people who want the last word.
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THREAD IS LOCKED!!
;D ;D