Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Martin ccs on February 12, 2010, 12:47:38 pm
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just wondered whats the rules when it comes to working off flat roofs?
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And the ladder must be secured if working on a flat roof, thats how michael Mills got £3000 fine under WAHR 2005
idealrob
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And the ladder must be secured if working on a flat roof, thats how michael Mills got £3000 fine under WAHR 2005
idealrob
so i got to secure a ladder just to climb on to a flat roof to do 1 window
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i go on flat roofs never secured the ladder, i can see windys doing that for one window not, stupid rules made up by some one sat in an office
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the actual ruling is to access the roof the ladder must be secured and be at least 1 metre higher than the access point, you must work at least 2 metres away from edge of the roof and edge protection or barriers should be put in place alternatively their should be a safety line to attach a lanyard too which then attaches to a work harness you are wearing and the lanyard should be short enough to keep you 2 metre away from edge of roof.
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All window cleaners should note there is no longer a 2m rule
Basically I don’t recommend accessing a flat roof from a ladder
If you cant clean it from inside the house or by using a water fed pole
Don’t clean it
The controls for you to clean this type of glass can be extensive
Suggest to the homeowner they get the window modified so it can be cleaned easily from inside the property
You can get info the HSE website
http://webcommunities.hse.gov.uk/inovem/inovem.ti/workheight/view?objectId=13267
I would also refer to Working at height regulations 2005
SCHEDULE 1
Regulation 6(4)(a)
REQUIREMENTS FOR EXISTING PLACES OF WORK AND MEANS OF ACCESS OR EGRESS AT HEIGHT
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[so i got to secure a ladder just to climb on to a flat roof to do 1 window
You got to secure a ladder to clean a window on first floor, not just getting onto flat roofs. Thats the law and not just made up by supid people who work in an office.
As the HSE advert says "shattering lives". About 70 deaths a year from ladders. We used to be trad then found out you can have a complete WFP system including pole, backpack and filters etc for under £300. First started off at £12k for a system, now its within everyones price bracket.
Not risking my life for £300
idealrob
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Good Post Willis
Hope to see you posting more of the same, we need people like you on this forum with your expertise.
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its not flat roofs i have a problem with.just get up there with a ladder(not secured!) :P.its the pitched roof variety that i dont like climbing up to clean the window above esp if theres skylights near the window to be cleaned!i still get up there though if i cant do a good enough job with an extension pole.hopefully when i go wfp ill be able stand back and do it from the ground.failing that climb ladder to low roof height with wfp in hand and clean from there!no probs! ;D ;D
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I'm thinking of getting a lanyard and a harness and attaching it to the van. This way I'll never get near enough to the house to fall off anything. Maybe wear one of those new motorcycle suits too in case trip over a plant pot then the air bags will save me. Might even invest in a life jacket 'cos some of my custys have ponds.
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On a more sensible note: has anyone devised a guage that could be fitted on the side of a ladder to give you the correct angle? Bit like a compass or a spirit level. I suppose it would have to be fitted near the top as the ladder height would never be the same.
I saw some painters working from ladders this week with their ladders at some really low angles around the property. No harnesses, stabilisers or footing of ladders for them :-\
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http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/ladders.htm
Seems to answer a lot of the questions on here. Loads of info and seems better laid out than the last time I found it. I think several of us are not even aware of some of the regulations.
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will give that a good reading later mate
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ideal rob
if you look it up you dont have to secure your ladders if you are only up there for short time
its funny how most people hate ladders never came off one in 6 years they are safe if used properly
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I find it hard to understand that even after 5 years the working at height regulations are still a mystery to most window cleaners.
Even in this short thread there are contradictions.
I am suprised that there has not been a simplistic document drawn up by some of the large organisations that represent window cleaners, and made available to all.
I think most use common sense, and many have a rough idea of the reg's but how many of you actualy know what you should and shouldnt do to comply with the law?
I for one dont!!
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Basically I don’t recommend accessing a flat roof from a ladder
Why?
It sounds like the bizarre recommendations of someone sat behind a desk with no hands on experience who has been appointed to 'baby-sit' those who know better. Reminds me of the H&S documentary that was on the box about a year or so ago where the H&S guy was demonstrating how to climb a set of steps. He got to the top rung and bashed his bonce on the ceiling.
He knew exactly what he was doing obviously. Yet they are appointed to oversee us, they havent got a clue.
Flat roofs are accessed hundreds of thousands of times daily by window cleaners, painters, builders, flat-roofers with no accidents to report. Of course there are going to be accidents but there are also accidents on roads it doesnt stop you driving does it?
Accessing flat roofs is fine just dont be dumb in the manner that you go about it.
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matt the thing is he works closely with the H&S and if you were tohave a accidn or even worse your employees you would be found gulty by HSE.
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Guilty of what?
Refering back to the documentary I mentioned there was an example of a sole operative mechanic whos place of work didnt come to scratch so far as the boffins from the H&S were concerned, but they openly acknowledged on the box there was nothing they could do as he was a sole operative.
Sent to save us from ourselves arent they. I hope they know how to sit at their desks without suffering repetitive strain injury.
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Matt
What about staff.
I employ and it would be impossible to risk assess every £10.00 job where we need access to a flat roof, one mistake on my behalf i would be screwed.
We try to avoid ladders, where we can't my legal requirements are.
1, provide ladder training.
2/ WAH training
3/ Manual handling training
4/general H&S training
4 Inspect the ladders daily
5/ Do a risk assessment
6/Use ladder stability device, or tie off ladders
7/ Inspect flat roof for load bearing
8/ Cross fingers and hope nothing goes wrong.
All for an extra £1.00
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Dave I wouldnt trust those guys as far you could throw them, you seriously think it best to ask someone who has never been on a flat roof in their life how to get onto one? ;D ;D ;D
Next time you want your gas boiler replaced ask me Ill do you a deal.
Sensible?
I dont even know what CORGI stands for, not sure its even credible nowadays. (but I can still sort you out if you like)
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The controls for you to clean this type of glass can be extensive
What are we doing here, changing a nuclear fuel rod or something?
They really dont give us any credit do they.
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think you need to read the document in full, not just one or two bits that are taken out of it to make it seem more dramatic ar restricting than it actually is. remember its there for your own good. And if you work outside those peramiters set out in the HSE your Public Liability and acceident and sickness insurance WILL be invalid. So whats the point of paying for insurance if its not valid!
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It's not the health and safety issue either, we are the ones that will get the blame if the roof in question starts leaking. I know I have walked on some spongy roofs in my time, where would we stand with our insurance cover if we put a foot through one?
If a customer asks you to do a window over a flat roof you should ask for a disclaimer in writing first.
It does seem a lot less hassle to leave it, as Dave said is it really worth it for a quid?
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Matt
I would trust the willis's, they are consultants for a few big window cleaning companies in London.
they arent as dumb as they look
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p.s
I think they work with JV Price
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Matt
I would trust the willis's, they are consultants for a few big window cleaning companies in London.
they arent as dumb as they look
Dave, we wont agree on this, you have your back to cover (as you employ) which is what drives the H&S these days, it was different 20 years ago.
The window cleaning companies you mentioned use Willis as consultants for one reason. It covers THEIR backs too in the event of an insurance claim. No other reason.
Insurance companies love these get out clauses but just because you have a consultancy behind you in reality doesnt mean you have a safer working practise, they are only guys sat behind desks with no hands on experience. You get to tick the boxes thats all. The realities of it are meaningless.
This is how I see it Dave in a not too short period of time....
Things will back-fire on the H&S and they will only have themselves to blame.
One day someone will have an accident and that person will sue the H&S (because its the H&S executive's job (isn't it?) to ensure all work places are safe from hazard).
This person (whoever that happens to be) will sue them because the blame culture will have become so twisted and engrained in our working lives that it will only serve to remove the element of PERSONAL responsibility; to such a degree that it will be seen to be fair that the H&S failed in THEIR responsibility to ensure that all kerbstones have chevrons painted on them as a hazard warning (or something as equally as bizarre) when said person trips and breaks his neck.
I bet they already have liability insurance covering themselves against this very thing.
Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
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Just been thinking about my last post.
Then what will happen, once they're sued?
The H&S Executives insurance company will withdraw their insurance cover if they continue to offer guidelines and regulations on health and safety as they will be deemed to be responsible for situations they have neglected to assess, such as the kerbstone scenario.
I guess give them enough rope they'll hang themselves springs to mind, but I cant help thinking theyve started something here with their rules and regulations that'll catch them out eventually. Isnt it called Karma?
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Matt
I agree if you are working safe already it doesnt make you safer, what it does is "prove" you are taking steps to "prove" you are mannaging the risks properly.
A case in point is all the ribbing I got when I broke my shoulder and being a member of safecontractor.,It didnt stop me falling although I took every step to get assessed that i was reducing risk.
Dave
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You could be that bloke Dave ;D
Id sue the H&S if I were you. They obviously under-regulated and didnt offer sufficient advice to prevent an accident on a step-ladder, its not your fault, its theirs ;)
I'll settle for 20% as your 'consultant'
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ideal rob
if you look it up you dont have to secure your ladders if you are only up there for short time
its funny how most people hate ladders never came off one in 6 years they are safe if used properly
Ladders are not safe if used properly ::), they are dangerous, accidents happen even to people that take care thats why it is called an accident. Touch wood I have never had an accident in the years I have used them, still use them today, but I would not say they are safe even when new.
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Good Post Willis
Hope to see you posting more of the same, we need people like you on this forum with your expertise.
WHAT AN UTTERLY DEPRESSING THREAD THIS IS.
Dave,
At first I thought your post was 'tongue in cheek' but now I realise you're serious :o
WE DO NOT NEED MORE AND MORE REGULATIONS.
The more regulations you have, the less people think for themselves. Certainly using ladders is dangerous, but the way to address the danger is for people to be aware and to THINK about what they're doing. You can't legislate against stupidity, and overwhelming people with ever more detailed and constraining regulations has the opposite effect, it encourages people to ignore practical considerations because 'the regulations' tell you what to do in any given situation.
THERE WILL ALWAYS BE THE SITUATION WHICH ISN'T COVERED BY REGULATIONS and then the unfortunate individual, so used to being wrapped in the cotton wool of regulations will do something silly because he isn't trained to consider the consequences of his actions.
I learned this job long before there was any H&S, WFP or any of todays innovations. The company I worked for insisted I spent the first week with an experienced shiner who taught me everything he knew and that included a thorough grounding in the safe way to use a ladder, and the way to work out FOR MYSELF if what I was proposing to do was safe.
THIS TRAINING WAS THE RESULT OF YEARS OF 'HANDS ON' EXPERIENCE TEMPERED BY CAREFULLY THOUGHT OUT IDEAS RESULTING ENTIRELY FROM THAT EXPERIENCE.
No amount of hypothetical work is of any value in the face of real experience.
My solution to the problem of deaths/injury resulting from the misuse of ladders in the infinitely varied situations we meet every day is that any organisation employing people to work on ladders must have access to training provided by people with not less than five years ACTUAL PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE in the use of ladders, and in the case of window cleaning that means splay-bottomed points, and must be able to demonstrate that their employees have received that training and subsequently been assessed as to their ability to understand and implement it.
In this case actual practical experience means constant daily use, not just the odd bit of ladder work as part of another job.
For sole trader, self employed people with only themselves as their responsibility, identical training should be available, and publicised through the forums and trade associations to give everyone the opportunity of acquiring proper training BUT NOT NECESSARILY COMPULSORY - if people want to kill themsleves, that's their prerogative provided they don't endanger anyone else.
I DO NOT, AND NEVER WILL BELIEVE THAT ANY TRAINING 'EXPERT' WITH HOWEVER MANY YEARS OF ACADEMIC LEARNING IS QUALIFIED TO DICTATE HOW PEOPLE IN THE PRACTICAL WORLD SHOULD ADDRESS THE EVERDAY HAZARDS THEY MEET IN THE COURSE OF THEIR WORK.
One example: as far as I am aware the H&S do not accept that window cleaners ladders are fit or safe for use in window cleaning. How do they know? Have they ever consulted any real window cleaner with many years experience and drawn meaningful comparisons between 'general' open ended ladders and 'specialist' window cleaning ladders? I think not, otherwise they would have to accept that a tool which was devised by real, experienced tradespeople for their own increased safety long before most of todays H&S were born must have relevance and value.
I can't speak for other trades/industries, but I think I am entitled to speak for our own and I maintain that today's H&S is NOT about striving to increase safety, it is a regime grown out of a lucrative 'box ticking' industry that is concerned with demonstrating its own necessity to the point where it positively discriminates against nearly a hundred years of solid, relevant experience in order to justify its existence and its authority to extract revenue from the industry.
I don't expect much sympathy with my point of view, but I do believe that unless we start to make our voices heard this culture will spread across our society to the point where all individual thought and choice will be suppressed by an ever increasing industry of regulation - it is self propagating and is becoming ever harder to control. Soon it will control us.
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Ian
all well and good, but what do I do when one of my lads has an accident and I took the attitude of "whatever" ?
I would be put before the courts, and probably be fined heavily, maybe sued as well.
David are HSE professionals who help us comply with current regs , What is wrong with that, they dont make the regs, just guide us through them
p.s the HSE do still allow window cleaning from ladders
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Dave, I think you are missing my point.
The fact that you would be dragged before the courts bears out what I am saying: the H&S culture is self-serving - it would prosecute and fine you because you failed to slavishly follow its dictate, not because you put your employees in danger.
I am most certainly not advocating an attitude of 'whatever' I believe in personal responsibility and REAL training. If you read what I said about employers in my post above you will see I believe you have a responsibility to provide PROPER RELEVANT training which is designed to keep your employees safe, not to tick the boxes on an H&S checklist.
As for who makes the regulations, that just makes it worse - the authors of the regs are even more remote from reality and have no right to dictate to seasoned responsible professionals without at least the courtesy of proper consultation.
And by that I don't mean with someone holding an academic degree on "Which way up should a ladder be"
Matt Bateman:
Very good and well reasoned posts.
I think you and I are singing from the same hymnsheet ;)
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Matt Bateman:
Very good and well reasoned posts.
I think you and I are singing from the same hymnsheet ;)
Im wasted here Ian, honestly mate, I think you might be too ;)
In all seriousness Ian, you have made exactly the same point I was trying to get across, I think you put it in a somewhat more coherent manner. :)
Nice one.
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Isn't that legislating 'because of stupidity' as opposed to 'against stupidity'?
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Matt
I would trust the willis's, they are consultants for a few big window cleaning companies in London.
they arent as dumb as they look
[/they arent as dumb as they look?]
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Great to see such interest
Just want to clear up some issues
Firstly, I very rarely work for contractors
Secondly, my work on commercial, Duty holder, property management companies, is part of good risk management by them, to advise, assist on making work areas safer for window cleaners.
Thirdly,
My work for the FWC is unpaid, I don’t claim any expenses and all time is out of my pocket
Insurance
Some of you may have forgotten some years back insurance premiums went through the roof, I was one of many including the FWC that campaigned to get insurance companies to look at the way they underwrite risk liability = The more you can prove your competency and that you work safely the lower we maintain insurance premiums = benefit to you ...not me
Effects of an accident
The way the courts will way up if you have done everything you can is “Reasonably practical”
This you can calculate
Picture the scales of justice on the Old Bailey roof
In one scale you place the value of your life
In the other you place the cost, time and trouble of controlling that risk
So if it’s going to cost £150 to hire equipment
Your balance out this
Your life against £150
So if you feel your life is worth more than £150 “and please ... before you jump all over £150 it’s AN EXAMPLE figure then don’t access the flat roof from a ladder ...
Some examples that are sadly happening far to often
A WINDOW cleaner who fell from a bay window roof while on his weekly round died accidentally, a jury has decided. Bill Wilson was found on a patio with head injuries after he fell from the roof of a house in Ilkeston in July last year. Derby and South Derbyshire Coroner's Court heard how a neighbor raised the alarm after hearing the 58-year-old calling for help. Paramedics took the father-of-four to the Queen's Medical Centre in Nottingham, where he died while undergoing surgery. Giving evidence, Sharon Caulfield said she returned to her home in Audley Close from Nottingham at around 2.30pm on the day of the incident.
TRIBUTES have been paid to a popular Townhill man who died in a tragic work accident on the eve of his 53rd birthday. James Ferrier, a self employed window cleaner, fell from a ladder while cleaning windows at a first floor flat in Townhill Road, Dunfermline, on Monday morning. The father of four, who was working with his brother Ronnie at the time, was taken by ambulance to Queen Margaret Hospital but passed away around midday. Family members said he was a beloved dad and granddad who lived for his family and will be sadly missed.
You make your choice....
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Matt
I would trust the willis's, they are consultants for a few big window cleaning companies in London.
they arent as dumb as they look
[/they arent as dumb as they look?]
I think he's saying look stupid ;D
Personally I think thats a little over the top, but hey, Daves a man under pressure, you'll have to forgive him.
So if you feel your life is worth more than £150
If we lived our lives along those lines we'd never leave the house to go to work in the morning.
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What about the use of poles extended 30% beyond the manufacturers recommendation for use by employees?
Any thoughts on that WILLIS?
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Same as any equipment
Use and operate within the manufacturers recommendation (instruction)
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Same as any equipment
Use and operate within the manufacturers recommendation (instruction)
Ok, thanks.
What would be the consequences if that wasn't adhered to & there was an accident or an injury to an employee arising from the use of the extended pole?
If the pole snapped because of a manufacturing defect, would the manufacturer be absolved of any responsibility because their equipment was being used in a manner not guaranteed or recommended by them?
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i think we would all agree some of the regulations are really stupid and now go well beyond what is really needed i know personally i get sick of the paperwork health and safety creates not to mention the costs and time needed to manage safe systems properly but as already been said i now firmly believe these systems are no longer in place just to prevent accidents but more for people to avoid liability from geting sued.
if we are all honest we have all done odd tasks knowingly breaking health and safety regs and i doubt anyone on here can claim otherwise and for how much we may disagree with these regs we now have to try and follow them in order to get the work as a lot of commercial customers will only award the contract to companies who can show proper safety management procedures they do this because they themselves are afraid of being sued.
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Great to see such interest
Just want to clear up some issues
Firstly, I very rarely work for contractors
Secondly, my work on commercial, Duty holder, property management companies, is part of good risk management by them, to advise, assist on making work areas safer for window cleaners. *
Thirdly,
My work for the FWC is unpaid, I don’t claim any expenses and all time is out of my pocket **
Insurance
Some of you may have forgotten some years back insurance premiums went through the roof, I was one of many including the FWC that campaigned to get insurance companies to look at the way they underwrite risk liability = The more you can prove your competency and that you work safely the lower we maintain insurance premiums ***= benefit to you ...not me
Effects of an accident
The way the courts will way up if you have done everything you can is “Reasonably practical”
This you can calculate
Picture the scales of justice on the Old Bailey roof
In one scale you place the value of your life
In the other you place the cost, time and trouble of controlling that risk ****
So if it’s going to cost £150 to hire equipment
Your balance out this
Your life against £150
So if you feel your life is worth more than £150 “and please ... before you jump all over £150 it’s AN EXAMPLE figure then don’t access the flat roof from a ladder ...
Some examples that are sadly happening far to often
A WINDOW cleaner who fell from a bay window roof while on his weekly round died accidentally, a jury has decided. Bill Wilson was found on a patio with head injuries after he fell from the roof of a house in Ilkeston in July last year. Derby and South Derbyshire Coroner's Court heard how a neighbor raised the alarm after hearing the 58-year-old calling for help. Paramedics took the father-of-four to the Queen's Medical Centre in Nottingham, where he died while undergoing surgery. Giving evidence, Sharon Caulfield said she returned to her home in Audley Close from Nottingham at around 2.30pm on the day of the incident.
TRIBUTES have been paid to a popular Townhill man who died in a tragic work accident on the eve of his 53rd birthday. James Ferrier, a self employed window cleaner, fell from a ladder while cleaning windows at a first floor flat in Townhill Road, Dunfermline, on Monday morning. The father of four, who was working with his brother Ronnie at the time, was taken by ambulance to Queen Margaret Hospital but passed away around midday. Family members said he was a beloved dad and granddad who lived for his family and will be sadly missed.
You make your choice....
*Can you tell us who decided what constituted 'safer working areas?' Some years ago a customer of mine asked the council to instal a concrete base to make it safer for me to access his upper windows. (I didn't ask him, he took it on himself) Round came the council works department and installed a beautiful flat concrete base - in completely the wrong place >:(
**I don't doubt your motives or integrity, I question their relevance
***But who is qualified to decide competency? Certainly not some faceless official with no practical experience. How many real window cleaners with years of safe working experience are consulted on this?
****Again the question of competency in the 'control' aspect. Why can't the knowledge and experience of dedicated professionals be accepted as valid? Just because some idiot with no common sense and no training manages to slip and fall while accessing a flat roof does not render the rest of us as incapable of performing a perfectly safe and simple operation.
As to your two 'examples that happen too often' - I couldn't agree more that these need to be stopped, it's the way you assume regulations and penalties will be effective methods that I question.
These two men by the evidence of their circumstances were not exercising common sense in their actions, and no plethora of regulations will change that - they were probably not even aware of any regulations and they certainly were not benefitting from good practical safety training. The ONLY way to address this is to publicise the need for good competent ladder training in the way I described in my first post. Window cleaning is by its nature 'beyond the fence' i.e. anyone can buy a ladder and set up in business, and these people are the very ones most at risk because they have no grasp of the dangers, or the way to avoid them. Unfortunately it is the professional, responsible members of the industry who have to bear the burden of restrictive regulations.
The problem is caused by the 'grey' area of amateur window cleaners so clamping down on the professionals is totally counter productive.
Please note I do not necessarily mean that all organised window cleaning companies are professional, or that all 'one man bands' are amateur. Professionalism is in the way they conduct their businesses.
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You make your point very well Ian and I can see where your coming from.
It's the same though in many walks of life, and I'm sure that many a snotty nosed young officer from Sandhurst, owes his life to an experienced sergeant who prevented him from getting his head blown off.
I know it's the same in the fishing industry, someone fresh from collage with letters after his name is deemed to know more than a fisherman that's been going to sea for 40 years.
Unless you can promote from within the ranks nothing will change.
Of course the insurance companies are the main drivers, they don't want to pay out, that's why they are only concerned with safety in the work place.
There is nothing to stop you from strapping on scuba gear, driving a fast power boat, or jumping off a cliff with para glider kit, you can do this with no training whatsoever, although you would be crazy to try.
As long as you are not covered by your own, or someone else's insurance, you can do whatever the hell you like.
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i think ians post is spot on it needs more people to question these siilly rulings that come from people with no experience of doing the job, if you want a good laugh look at the report loughborough university did on ladder use it actually recomends that to foot a ladder the person should stand on the bottom rung i think the federation could do more to show how unworkable and costly some of the HSE regulations are to industry.
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Trevor Perry
Matt Bateman
Ian Lancaster
You may be aware of Windex 2010 on 18th and 19th March
I would like to invite you to attend the working at height seminar
Follow the link for details
http://www.windex.co.uk/free-seminars/?/seminar/
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ideal rob
if you look it up you dont have to secure your ladders if you are only up there for short time
its funny how most people hate ladders never came off one in 6 years they are safe if used properly
woody , where does it say you only having to secure if you are only up there a short time.
A rojac stopper costs £30 , get a life and save your life. £30 risk it for this and break the law.
please copy and paste the rules you say are true.lol
idealrob
idealrob
t
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Trevor Perry
Matt Bateman
Ian Lancaster
You may be aware of Windex 2010 on 18th and 19th March
I would like to invite you to attend the working at height seminar
Follow the link for details
http://www.windex.co.uk/free-seminars/?/seminar/
Willis, how many years have you spent making a living whilst working off a ladder, daily, by the hour, on an on-going basis day by day?
Could we have a look at your C.V please?
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I started window cleaning in 1975 on the tools for the Great International Window Cleaning company (London)
With at least 15 years ladder experience including 3 part
Spent next five years as lead hand-supervisor-and then commercial manager with leading window cleaning companies before joining Kobi Group Plc as commercial manager cleaning some of the UK’s largest commercial properties.
On the basis in those days we did not have waterfed pole a great deal of our time was spent using ladders, in fact 10 years of my career would have been ladder work
Like I say come to Windex and Ill include this thread topic in my seminar slot
To be blunt
Lets see if you are like some of these forum users that hide behind their PC and just talk about window cleaning rather that actually getting involved and having some positive input into improving our industry
Sorry if I am making a point but I am all for this forum just there are quite a few users on here that talk some rubbish!
That out the way, If you would like to secure government funding for the City and Guilds certification I would put money on you having a change of view as with Ian and others, at the end of the course
For dates visit http://www.training43.com/book-a-course/
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Quotes about Willis competency
http://www.training43.com/pdf/Impact2010Newsletter.pdf
http://www.training43.com/pdf/Issue1.pdf
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i wonder if Matt Bateman wants to add anything more positive after seeing how un qualified WILLIS is ::) ;D
Why is it when any supplier or professional comes on here and offers some pratical advice the usual suspects try to shoot them down in flames.
It just shows a level of ignorance you have and that you won't improve throughout this profession.
Why not go on the city and guilds course, shut up and listen and see if you might actually learn something!
Its free and can only help you improve your working practises.
But then probably not because we all still should be walking the streets with a ladder in one hand and a bucket in the other, because at the end of the day any fool can clean windows can't they ::)
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Willis
Am I not invited,
I take it from your CV you are Andrew.
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you take advice what you want from suppliers or professionals. some of it good, some of it not so good.
But why shoot them down in flames?
why is it not easier to sit back and take from their input what you want instead of trying to burn them at the stake all the time.
I think this forum needs more professional input. i miss not actually learning anything from this place. at the end of the day thats really what we are all here for arn't we?
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Willis
Am I not invited,
I take it from your CV you are Andrew.
Look forward to seeing you David regards Andy
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Simple solutution to me is if the house is dodgy, find another house.......... easy. I'm not going to risk my life for a tenner. Its only a job after all.
Many people on here over the years have tried to argue that ladders aren't dangerous and they have been doing it since Noah was a lad and never had a problem. Well OK thats their view but excuse me because the statistics don't bear that out.
Why take risks when you don't have to? Its like its some sort of insult to their masculinity to suggest that they can't reach every window on every house on the street?
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i wonder if Matt Bateman wants to add anything more positive after seeing how un qualified WILLIS is ::) ;D
No theres nothing more I'd like to add, in this instance it would appear that Willis is adequately qualified and I only speak from a practical point of view; however I do believe I am allowed to make my point, voice my opinion. There have been no personal attacks from me on anyone, I firmly beieve in what I said, which I think was made more eloquently by Ian.
Do you think 'unqualified' H&S officials ought to be implementing these regulations?
By the way Steve CM, Joe Snotty Nose could come on here and say anything about himself, would you believe him without delving a little deeper. More fool you if you do.
I have had my fair share of run ins with Glyn, Im not the only one but feel the thread re: Gardiners that has recently been running isn't fair on Alex.
You may have to get used to the fact that we dont all like each others 'mates'.
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I started window cleaning in 1975 on the tools for the Great International Window Cleaning company (London)
With at least 15 years ladder experience including 3 part
Spent next five years as lead hand-supervisor-and then commercial manager with leading window cleaning companies before joining Kobi Group Plc as commercial manager cleaning some of the UK’s largest commercial properties.
On the basis in those days we did not have waterfed pole a great deal of our time was spent using ladders, in fact 10 years of my career would have been ladder work
Like I say come to Windex and Ill include this thread topic in my seminar slot
To be blunt
Lets see if you are like some of these forum users that hide behind their PC and just talk about window cleaning rather that actually getting involved and having some positive input into improving our industry
Sorry if I am making a point but I am all for this forum just there are quite a few users on here that talk some rubbish!
That out the way, If you would like to secure government funding for the City and Guilds certification I would put money on you having a change of view as with Ian and others, at the end of the course
For dates visit http://www.training43.com/book-a-course/
Thankyou for answering Willis.
I think thats a tad strong to suggest I am hiding behind a computer screen. I am just making a point and it happens to be on a forum. Thus in that sense you could say we are all hiding. However, I have nothing to hide if that is what you are saying.
Will I be there? No I wont, I will be working, but thankyou for inviting me, I mean that. If my work schedule changes I will be there.
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in this instance and many others..... ::)
Ian Lancaster was an objective point of view with substance.
Yours was trying to condemn a man for not being qualified to say what he has in regards to this matter.
Its a familiar tune that is being played, can't you find another song sheet to play from?
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Rubbish, absolute dross. Ian may have had a better way of putting it, more eloquently, but what you are saying about me is rubbish. You just have an agenda and and its now become apparent for all to see.
All I was saying was the regulations were obscene basically and I did NOT make any seriously derogatory remarks about Willis, point them out if I did.
You knew his qualifications before he voiced them did you?
I think this forum needs more professional input.
We're right behind you. off you go then ;)
Anyway, thats me so far as you are concerned, its tittle tattle otherwise, good luck in your crusade, I shall observe with eager anticipation.
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i wonder if Matt Bateman wants to add anything more positive after seeing how un qualified WILLIS is ::) ;D
No theres nothing more I'd like to add, in this instance it would appear that Willis is adequately qualified and I only speak from a practical point of view; however I do believe I am allowed to make my point, voice my opinion. There have been no personal attacks from me on anyone, I firmly beieve in what I said, which I think was made more eloquently by Ian.
Do you think 'unqualified' H&S officials ought to be implementing these regulations?
By the way Steve CM, Joe Snotty Nose could come on here and say anything about himself, would you believe him without delving a little deeper. More fool you if you do.
I have had my fair share of run ins with Glyn, Im not the only one but feel the thread re: Gardiners that has recently been running isn't fair on Alex.
You may have to get used to the fact that we dont all like each others 'mates'.
i have just read your re-quote..thanks
I have my own opinions about many things on here. i could tell you a lot of my experience with omnipole....but i won't
i said about the price of the sl2 sections as i can't believe how much the have gone up in about 12 months since i had it. I even said that alex was a decent guy which he is.
I have dealt with a few others and again i could share my experiences.
The only one i have voiced very concerningly is to do with canvassers as they mug people off everyday of the week!!
why don't i dish the dirt on some of the others i've dealt with? because then that fuels the fire for people that have no clue what they are talking about to start spouting off about a person they have had no dealings with.
Make your own way in this world. Besides i have no mates on here, if i want them i go to the pub like any normal person would! ;)
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Rubbish, absolute dross. Ian may have had a better way of putting it, more eloquently, but what you are saying about me is rubbish. You just have an agenda and and its now become apparent for all to see.
All I was saying was the regulations were obscene basically and I did NOT make any seriously derogatory remarks about Willis, point them out if I did.
You knew his qualifications before he voiced them did you?
I think this forum needs more professional input.
We're right behind you. off you go then ;)
Anyway, thats me so far as you are concerned, its tittle tattle otherwise, good luck in your crusade, I shall observe with eager anticipation.
don't give yourself an ulcer matt....have a good day! ;)
i don't have any motive other than trying to keep good professional input on this forum
I'm sick of reading playground antics
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Hi Guys
For what its worth we have used the services of Andy Willis for a number of years, on Thursday this week he did a traing course for 20 of our window cleaners.
He knows what he is talking about and in my opinion offers good value for money.
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yep
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Well Ian Lancaster gets my nomination for post of the year so far....
Completely and totally agree with what he said in that first post...
H & S issues are a constant, teeth grinding area of frustration for people at the business end of having to deal with them, ie, window cleaners, scaffolders, painters, roofers and any other trade where ladders are used, and not forgetting any other business where H & S can poke their snouts into...which...er...is just about any and every aspect of modern day life :'(
I'm 54 years old (well, will be on the 18th of this month ;)) and I've spent my entire working life, first as a painter and decorator and the last 27 years as a window cleaner working off ladders.
The last 6 or 7 of those years I've been WFP.
It isn't until you STOP working constantly off ladders that you truly begin to realise how dangerous they are.
Like many others on here, I can look back now and shudder in horror at the stupid risks I took, and also the risks that some of the guys who worked for me took.
I'm not talking about taking constant risks, just those odd moments on individual jobs where you think, "What the heck, I can do this."
Or I'll warrant that no end of those working off ladders now will stand on their tippy-toes on the highest rung (regardless of height) pinch a bit of window frame between thumb and forefinger and just stttrrreeetch that little bit more to get at that one single pane of glass rather than clamber down the ladder to move it a couple of feet and then climb back up the ladder to spend a few seconds cleaning that pane of glass.
Or those out there that will prop their ladder against that nice slippery upvc guttering running along that flat roof and step off it without a moments thought as to just how dangerous that really is.
How many of you have stood at the top of your ladder on one foot with the other one pointing out at 45 degrees for counter balance while obviously over reaching?
We can all understand the need for regulation and the importance of risk reduction, unfortunately once you start down that path, or rather once an authority is set up to deal with those issues and the first regulations are put in place...all very common sense and practical no doubt, with every fresh look they will continue to find more and yet more little steps that can be taken to further reduce the risks and dangers in our everyday lives.
An example; A year or two ago our local carnival organisers wanted - as they had done for many years previously - to hang a large banner advertising the Carnival in the spot they had always used, but once some spotty faced prat of an insurance assessor had...er, assessed it, they wanted some extraordinarily large sum to cover it as part of the overall insurance. (something like and extra £1,000.00 for just a few days)
Once the organisers had recovered sufficiently from the shock and asked them why they were going to be surcharged such an ungodly amount they were told there was a risk that one of the ropes securing said banner could come loose and could wrap around the neck of a small child and thereby choke them to death :o :o :o
A completely and utterly ridiculous conclusion, it may well have been theoretically possible but the actual probability of such an event happening must be many thousands to one.
Needless to say the banner did not get hung that year....and thanks of course to a jerk with a clipboard without an ounce of common or practical sense, no ickle child was hanged by the neck until dead...
Unfortunately a great many window cleaners will continue to be hurt as a result falls from ladders (as Dave knows, even a fall from the first rung of a ladder, 9 inches of the ground can result in a broken shoulder) and people will continue to die.
H & S will of course continue to cite such cases (whilst forgetting to mention the hundreds of thousands of tradesmen and women who DO NOT get injured or killed) in their remorseless drive to protect us from ourselves, not helped of course from idiots (or those without the training Ian Lancaster mentions) taking stupid or unnecessary risks.
This all gets compounded by desk bound morons (as in the example I mentioned above) without any real, practical experience helping to form yet more over the top edicts, further driven by insurance companies desperate to wriggle out of any claims, justified or not by any means possible....
Here's a thought; If cricket had just been invented, what would the chances of it ever being allowed to be played at school? H & S would never allow it would they...
We're all going to hell in a hand basket :'( But only if H & S don't get involved...dangerous things hand baskets, they'd have to be assessed and regulated first! :-\
Ian
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;)
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Or I'll warrant that no end of those working off ladders now will stand on their tippy-toes on the highest rung (regardless of height) pinch a bit of window frame between thumb and forefinger and just stttrrreeetch that little bit more to get at that one single pane of glass rather than clamber down the ladder to move it a couple of feet and then climb back up the ladder to spend a few seconds cleaning that pane of glass.
Yes Ian, guilty as charged, done all them.
Years of ladder use brings expertise, show me a tight rope walker that spends as much time as a window cleaner practicing his art, a hundred risk assessments every working day.
Self preservation is a powerful instinct, and is more important to me than any regulations.
Most accidents are caused by unfamiliarity, complacency, and the unforeseen.
The first can be eliminated with the correct training, the second is down to the individual, and is probably why we need to have regulations, and the third is one of the main reasons I went WFP.
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Andy:
Thank you for your response. I accept that you are an experienced and qualified tradesman to the point where you have earned your right to instruct and advise on matters of safety with particluar relevence to our industry.
I sincerely hope my comments have not offended you, as you may have gathered I am passionate about misrepresentations about the safety of window cleaning as well as the misguided and unsuitable regulations dreamed up by 'experts' who will never understand why their spoutings will not be acceptable to so many of us.
I look forward to Windex, I suspect that you and I will still have differences of opinion but I would welcome the chance of a face to face discussion.
In everything I've said the point I was trying to make is that there are valid opinions on both sides of the argument and that no one party should presume to be the incontrovertible authority.
Ian Giles:
Thank you for the vote of confidence ;)
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Andy:
Thank you for your response. I accept that you are an experienced and qualified tradesman to the point where you have earned your right to instruct and advise on matters of safety with particluar relevence to our industry.
I sincerely hope my comments have not offended you, as you may have gathered I am passionate about misrepresentations about the safety of window cleaning as well as the misguided and unsuitable regulations dreamed up by 'experts' who will never understand why their spoutings will not be acceptable to so many of us.
I look forward to Windex, I suspect that you and I will still have differences of opinion but I would welcome the chance of a face to face discussion.
In everything I've said the point I was trying to make is that there are valid opinions on both sides of the argument and that no one party should presume to be the incontrovertible authority.
Ian Giles:
Thank you for the vote of confidence ;)
Hi Ian
Since the post I am planning to build the working from flat roofs into my working at height slot at the seminar.
I will also raise this at the next FWC meeting
Ian thanks for the post, look forward to meeting you Andy
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andy
thanks for the offer i will definately attend the working at height seminar and would like to thank you for including a working from flat roof section as this is a major issue on one large commercial job we carry out, i am not against health and safety like you may think but some of the regulations have gone way to far i look forward to discussing these issues with you when we meet i am also going to bring along a couple of method statements and risk assessments which where done for the job but got rejected by their health and safety officer to see what your opinions are, i have nearly 30 years experience at working at height on ladders and many other means including methods that are no longer used ie block and tackle rope work etc i can also give many examples of where following H and S rules can create more risks than not following them i hope you have a question and answer part to the seminar where i can bring these issues up but if you dont maybe we could have a chat after privately to discuss them.
i am a member of the FWC and i hope it doesnt go down the route of just selling training courses but could also cover individual case studies in its magazine.
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andy
thanks for the offer i will definately attend the working at height seminar and would like to thank you for including a working from flat roof section as this is a major issue on one large commercial job we carry out, i am not against health and safety like you may think but some of the regulations have gone way to far i look forward to discussing these issues with you when we meet i am also going to bring along a couple of method statements and risk assessments which where done for the job but got rejected by their health and safety officer to see what your opinions are, i have nearly 30 years experience at working at height on ladders and many other means including methods that are no longer used ie block and tackle rope work etc i can also give many examples of where following H and S rules can create more risks than not following them i hope you have a question and answer part to the seminar where i can bring these issues up but if you dont maybe we could have a chat after privately to discuss them.
i am a member of the FWC and i hope it doesnt go down the route of just selling training courses but could also cover individual case studies in its magazine.
[/Trevor ]
thanks for the post, look forward to meeting you Andy
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Guys I have read this thread with much interest and as one can see it is quite explosive subject. The thing that never fails to amaze is the insurance companies are exploiting this industry and so many others fanned on by H S people who have vested interested in H S because our government will not regulate it own laws. Don’t get me wrong I do believe we must be safety cons house, but there is room for workers to take reasonability for bad practices and risks they take. If you every feel you have to do a job and your company or customer says you must then look after yourself and work away. I had a injury 6 years back and I have no doubt who was at fault .Only Me and it cost me 6 month off work and 14 days in hospital at my cost. A lesson learned. But I am not neurotic about it, just more careful..
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Interesting thread. To nail my colours to the mast, I advocate full H&S implementation. In fact I see myself in a few years time working in H&S.
That said, I still don't fully implement them myself, old habits die hard. And this is where the problem lies IMHO.
I attended a H&S meeting on Sat for a voluntary organization the purpose being to 'interactively audit the H&S procedures' for this organization. One thing that was highlighted was the drive that the trades had for their particular trade. Great, plenty of good work getting done. However a single minded approach leaves no room for considering the possible outcome of doing thing 'how they have always been done' On this site if you don't follow H&S as instructed you will be asked to leave. Time and cost always after safety.
The long term impacts of accidents should always be considered, the instructor, a good friend of mine, told of his uncle who in a 2 second freak accident was a paraplegic until he died. The stress on his wife caring for him led to her early death as well.
Is it important? Yes. Is it just office bods finding things to do? No. These regulations have been penned by people who have seen the consequence of not following H&S.
We presume bad stuff only happens to 'other people'. Not true.
I would be delighted if Willis could stay on and answer all H&S questions, maybe then we will be in a position to boast about zero accidents.
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Or I'll warrant that no end of those working off ladders now will stand on their tippy-toes on the highest rung (regardless of height) pinch a bit of window frame between thumb and forefinger and just stttrrreeetch that little bit more to get at that one single pane of glass rather than clamber down the ladder to move it a couple of feet and then climb back up the ladder to spend a few seconds cleaning that pane of glass.
Yes Ian, guilty as charged, done all them.
Years of ladder use brings expertise, show me a tight rope walker that spends as much time as a window cleaner practicing his art, a hundred risk assessments every working day.
Self preservation is a powerful instinct, and is more important to me than any regulations.
Most accidents are caused by unfamiliarity, complacency, and the unforeseen.
The first can be eliminated with the correct training, the second is down to the individual, and is probably why we need to have regulations, and the third is one of the main reasons I went WFP.
think this as been well argued out with some excellent points raised an
opinions aired by all i as a window cleaner ov 25 yrs av done all n more the same as dave n dai yes we av risked it , why coz when we av been up there n realised we shoulda been a rung or two up extra the majority ov wc s will stretch n 9 times outa ten geta way wiv it as iv said on previous thread how high up i think top rung face on glass full stretch , some of the older windows r a stretch n there for the grace ov god we take risks this is a job ov risks full stop through training however jus as trad or wfp it gives u a lil extra tool think like this "COMPLACENTCY BREEDS CONTEMPT or JUST THAT UP IS A LONG WAY DOWN " n believe you me it hurts when you fall n we all will its just a matter ov time , be safe out there think think think we all av wifes n families .
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good topic and wills not an arse like a lot of thos who say i kowe how but never dun it. how many windys do you kow thats com of a ladder ???????? this is a Q for all
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However a single minded approach leaves no room for considering the possible outcome of doing thing 'how they have always been done' On this site if you don't follow H&S as instructed you will be asked to leave. Time and cost always after safety.
And you don't call your attitude SINGLE MINDED?? :o :o :o :o
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Ironically if you ever do an H&S course they often like to mention “common sense”
Good point.
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Ironically if you ever do an H&S course they often like to mention “common sense”
Good point.
I actually think that is a stupid point, your common sense may be on a different scale to someone elses common sense, so I think you will find someone teaching health and safety would have to be blagging it to say use common sense
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However a single minded approach leaves no room for considering the possible outcome of doing thing 'how they have always been done' On this site if you don't follow H&S as instructed you will be asked to leave. Time and cost always after safety.
And you don't call your attitude SINGLE MINDED?? :o :o :o :o
Why are you getting in a flap Ian? Everyone knows the deal before they start. No-one is paid for their time. And as far as I know it has very rarely been necessary to ask some one to leave the site. Traders apply to work on the sites and only responsible people are asked to work. It is in fact a great working environment. Hundred's of people giving their time freely AND happy to, not only follow but, go beyond the recommended H&S standards.
Added to this I am getting free on-site training from some very competent professionals.
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Why when we are having a debate things always move to a personal level. This is why we need to grow for a long time before will never be professional. Thank God our customers do not read this forum. We would loose business all the time. COME ON Mates stop the personal attracts.
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Why is this a Sticky.......
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Stop the ladder from slipping ;)
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I'm 54 years old (well, will be on the 18th of this month ;))
happy birthday to you...... ;D
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So who's won the argument in this thread?
The people who think the H&S guys are all theory or out of touch, or the window cleaners who claim to have both experience and common sense?
If the topic is ladders and flat roofs i'm surprised that a wc forum can't come up with more sensible comments other than who has been doing it longer.
From the little bit of laddering i've done getting on and off roofs does seem the most dangerous part. I have a safey device called a ladder limpet, but can't understand why safety devices aren't better promoted or designed.You would have thought that the H&S people could have come up with their own device, after all they've had about 40yrs to think about it, and unlimited funds.
How many more people have to fall before these herberts get their act together?
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Please all see new post under ......Work at height: Confronting competency
Also following link to HSE website
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/wait/findoutmore.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg284.pdf
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We are all responsible for Heath and Safety and most of the Health and Safety laws and guildlines have come about by our own stupid actions in the workplace.
How many of you professionals, have done that "1 job" which was a bit hairy, I would bet that every single one of you has, yet you now moan when some "office boy" points out the obvious, and draws up rules and regulations to try and stop you.
You now shout about freedom to work, yet all he is trying to do, is reduce the death and accident rate linked to your job.
What is an accident?
1. chance: the way things happen without any planning, apparent cause, or deliberate intent
2. crash: a collision or similar incident involving a moving vehicle, often resulting in injury or death
3. chance happening: an event that happens completely by chance, with no planning or deliberate intent
4. mishap: an unplanned and unfortunate event that results in damage, injury, or upset of some kind
5. failure to reach toilet: an incident when somebody, particularly a small child, is incontinent (used euphemistically)
6. unplanned pregnancy: a child conceived in an unplanned way
7. philosophy nonessential attribute: a nonessential attribute or characteristic of something
all of the above examples of different "accidents", all are preventable, if the right actions are taken before they happen.
The cemeteries are full with experenced window cleaners, who families, now wish they had used a more safer method in cleaning that last job.
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Too easy, the regs have to cover electricians, painters etc and cowboys :D
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I know what you mean Jeff but that’s what so frustrating about the HSE, even if they had to list all the trades that use ladders daily or weekly, I would expect they could get that part done in a month or two! Then they could go into specifics about each trade, with a generalisation about ladder use.
How difficult would it be for them to contact ladder manufactures and introduce ladder usage with safety devices attached top and bottom to be used when ever a ladder is used?
Even the general public would soon be informed when they buy a ladder from B&Q.
I agree it would be very easy for the HSE to rule on Ladder use for 99% of window cleaners, I feel that a lot of window cleaners would not like the outcome though.
It should really be up to the Trade Bodies who say they have the welfare of window cleaners at heart, but they do not seem to be doing nothing.
I know that they are in talks with the HSE, but what are they asking for.
I feel that they should be asking the HSE for CLARITY.
If ladders are to be restricted then so be it.
They could then look at funding for those who have to come off ladders and purchase alternative equipment (like wfp) to carry on trading
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that's the problem with such a huge raft of regulations (that are continually being added to and tweaked)...CLARITY!
For us plebs it sounds an easy thing to just say; "If it is reasonable and practical to do a job any other way other than off a ladder then that method should be used."
You can kind of start off like that, but then you have to start adding in no end of qualifying caveats; Can an aerial fitter qualify as an exception for instance?
What about roofers doing repairs? At what point would "reasonable and practical apply where using scaffold or lifts and so on, and what about the relevant training and a further raft of H&S regs concerning the use of such equipment?
I've only sat here and tapped out a couple of hurried, poorly thought out ideas, but you get the drift, even a quick scratch of the surface by a pleb (ME :-\) Starts to show how complex it can become to express clarity.
Were you to just implement my own suggestion across the board you would wipe out tens of thousands of window cleaners and god knows how many other varied tradesmen and women.
It's all so depressing! :'( :'(
Did you know that if you are an employer and you are in a trade that uses...for instance, disc cutters, your employees are not allowed to change the blades unless they have been on a course and have the necessary certificates?
Lunacy!
It's only a case of unscrewing a single bolt!
Yet of course if an employee makes a mistake and the nice new, shiny tungsten blade should shoot off and chop the head of little child walking past, then you want to be sure it's someone else and not you that gets done for it don't you !
:-\
Ian
Like I said....It's all so depressing
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I went on a course once its title was
'How to go on a Course'
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Spot on Ian. We need someone who can speak to us at our level, someone who can translate the crap and put it in plain English. A few lines of common sense, some answers that anyone can understand. Someone to explain the laws of working at height. We need to know exactly what we can and can't do. It's such a grey area that nobody seems to fully understand including those who are supposed to teach it.
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Spot on Ian. We need someone who can speak to us at our level, someone who can translate the crap and put it in plain English. A few lines of common sense, some answers that anyone can understand. Someone to explain the laws of working at height. We need to know exactly what we can and can't do. It's such a grey area that nobody seems to fully understand including those who are supposed to teach it.
Reasonably practicable creates a lot of confusion. You only have to browse this forum for 5 mins before you realise that reasonable for one person can be totally irrational for someone else.
It's as if they are using the lack of clarity to catch us out.
Better hope that our reasonable is in sync with a health and safety inspector's definition of the word.
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I have a flat roof that I have to acess with a ladder to enable me to climb around the back and reach a dormer window from an extended kitchen roof. I use stabilisers and make sure my ladder is extended above the roofline.
There is virtually no risk from the ladder, the risk comes from the fact that the coping stones are loose on the parapet wall on the garage roof :-\ if I grab one of those i'll be in for some brain damage.
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Its a good subect and interesting to read the views, and legislations,
But, i hit a flat roof ... well ..never!
There are times when i quote.. if i can reach above a flat roof with a pole..all well and good...
otherwise i dont climb on them...and price them accordingly
i aint falling and breaking bones for a few quid.... and weeks off work...or worse!
If i near worked on them for a living....like , pointing... sky dishes... asphalting etc... then i would look into it more,
Thats just me tho...i know some guys jump all over them ;D
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I went on a course once its title was
'How to go on a Course'
PMSL ;D ur not helping much Matt ;D funny tho ;D
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the amount of windys who fallis not funy
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i cant believe the amount of posts to this question. if u think its safe go for it , if u dont think its safe , dont do it . EASY
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I used to be a satellite engineer, and a couple of years ago I had to go on a ladder training course - with training how to get on & off ladder at the top.
One of the most useful tips I had was to drill a hole in the wall in line with where the ladder will be (ideally 1M up, not always possible.
Then you put an rawl plug & eye bolt into the wall.
After this, whenever you use the ladder in this location you feed a ratchet strap through a ladder rung, then throught the eye bolt, and back onto itself.
When you ratchet it up tight the ladder cannot slide sideways, or back - really steady.
OK - we had to use harnesses etc, but being sensible I would feel very safe getting on & off the ladder.
I now charge a £5 on-off fee for fitting the eyebolt, and an extra £1 per clean for the hassle.
CSS worksafe were the people that certificated my ladder use - and they run specific window cleaner access training courses.
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I used to be a satellite engineer, and a couple of years ago I had to go on a ladder training course - with training how to get on & off ladder at the top.
One of the most useful tips I had was to drill a hole in the wall in line with where the ladder will be (ideally 1M up, not always possible.
Then you put an rawl plug & eye bolt into the wall.
After this, whenever you use the ladder in this location you feed a ratchet strap through a ladder rung, then throught the eye bolt, and back onto itself.
When you ratchet it up tight the ladder cannot slide sideways, or back - really steady.
OK - we had to use harnesses etc, but being sensible I would feel very safe getting on & off the ladder.
I now charge a £5 on-off fee for fitting the eyebolt, and an extra £1 per clean for the hassle.
CSS worksafe were the people that certificated my ladder use - and they run specific window cleaner access training courses.
Well i am sorry but if a wc came to me and said to clean your windows i will have to put a bolt in your wall and charge you for doing it...i think i might tell him not to worry (maybe not as polite as that though).
Imagine going round to 400 + customers and fixing eyebolts..... ::)
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Actually the eyebolts are very unobtrusive, and in line with some of the earlier comments on this thread about not even bothering to clean on a flat roof - I would like to offer my customers an alternative.
Still - everyone is entitled to their opinion, be it judgemental & blinkered or otherwise
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I have used wall plugs and vine eyes. I tie the ladders to the vine eye and it works.
I tell custies it will be safe for anybody else who needs to get on the roof, no one told me to take a hike yet ;D.
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I used to be a satellite engineer, and a couple of years ago I had to go on a ladder training course - with training how to get on & off ladder at the top.
One of the most useful tips I had was to drill a hole in the wall in line with where the ladder will be (ideally 1M up, not always possible.
Then you put an rawl plug & eye bolt into the wall.
After this, whenever you use the ladder in this location you feed a ratchet strap through a ladder rung, then throught the eye bolt, and back onto itself.
When you ratchet it up tight the ladder cannot slide sideways, or back - really steady.
OK - we had to use harnesses etc, but being sensible I would feel very safe getting on & off the ladder.
I now charge a £5 on-off fee for fitting the eyebolt, and an extra £1 per clean for the hassle.
CSS worksafe were the people that certificated my ladder use - and they run specific window cleaner access training courses.
Well i am sorry but if a wc came to me and said to clean your windows i will have to put a bolt in your wall and charge you for doing it...i think i might tell him not to worry (maybe not as polite as that though).
Imagine going round to 400 + customers and fixing eyebolts..... ::)
And, of course, you need to install an eyebolt for every position you use your ladder. On a standard 3-bed semi that could be as many as 10
Somebody tell me this bloke is taking the P ::)
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I used to be a satellite engineer, and a couple of years ago I had to go on a ladder training course - with training how to get on & off ladder at the top.
can you share with us, what the proper way is to get on and off ?,at the top
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Safely.
and before you say that every ladder uses know this because they don't.
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I used to be a satellite engineer, and a couple of years ago I had to go on a ladder training course - with training how to get on & off ladder at the top.
One of the most useful tips I had was to drill a hole in the wall in line with where the ladder will be (ideally 1M up, not always possible.
Then you put an rawl plug & eye bolt into the wall.
After this, whenever you use the ladder in this location you feed a ratchet strap through a ladder rung, then throught the eye bolt, and back onto itself.
When you ratchet it up tight the ladder cannot slide sideways, or back - really steady.
OK - we had to use harnesses etc, but being sensible I would feel very safe getting on & off the ladder.
I now charge a £5 on-off fee for fitting the eyebolt, and an extra £1 per clean for the hassle.
CSS worksafe were the people that certificated my ladder use - and they run specific window cleaner access training courses.
Well i am sorry but if a wc came to me and said to clean your windows i will have to put a bolt in your wall and charge you for doing it...i think i might tell him not to worry (maybe not as polite as that though).
Imagine going round to 400 + customers and fixing eyebolts..... ::)
And, of course, you need to install an eyebolt for every position you use your ladder. On a standard 3-bed semi that could be as many as 10
Somebody tell me this bloke is taking the P ::)
Ian. You forgot to mention the course you have to go on to be allowed to use the drill for the eyebolts :)
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You also have to climb the ladder with your tools, then drill a hole in the wall ;D. Is this contravening health and safety? ???
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[so i got to secure a ladder just to climb on to a flat roof to do 1 window
You got to secure a ladder to clean a window on first floor, not just getting onto flat roofs. Thats the law and not just made up by supid people who work in an office.
As the HSE advert says "shattering lives". About 70 deaths a year from ladders. We used to be trad then found out you can have a complete WFP system including pole, backpack and filters etc for under £300. First started off at £12k for a system, now its within everyones price bracket.
Not risking my life for £300
idealrob
Please tell me where i can get a complete WFP system including pole, backpack and filters etc for under £300 thats about the limit i have to spend.
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I used to be a satellite engineer, and a couple of years ago I had to go on a ladder training course - with training how to get on & off ladder at the top.
can you share with us, what the proper way is to get on and off ?,at the top
I think it goes like this (but I could be wrong):
Put at least two rungs of the ladder above the flat surface. Ideally the ladder should not rest on a plastic gutter, and it should be stabilised at the bottom with something like a Rojak ladder stopper and tied off near the top; tie it off when you get to the top of the ladder; this is to prevent the ladder slipping left or right; the rojak helps prevent it from slipping backwards.
Then be careful! Climbing on and off a ladder onto a flat roof is one of those 'danger points'.
However, I must be honest and don't use a rojak, nor do I tie them off, and sometimes I'll put them on plastic gutters. I really ought to just miss these windows I can't do with a pole. Maybe you should just give these windows a miss too?
Oh, and the most important rule with regards flat roofs - which hasn't been posted here - is not to fall off them; don't go stepping back to admire your nice shiny window you've just cleaned.
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[so i got to secure a ladder just to climb on to a flat roof to do 1 window
You got to secure a ladder to clean a window on first floor, not just getting onto flat roofs. Thats the law and not just made up by supid people who work in an office.
As the HSE advert says "shattering lives". About 70 deaths a year from ladders. We used to be trad then found out you can have a complete WFP system including pole, backpack and filters etc for under £300. First started off at £12k for a system, now its within everyones price bracket.
Not risking my life for £300
idealrob
Please tell me where i can get a complete WFP system including pole, backpack and filters etc for under £300 thats about the limit i have to spend.
Try
http://www.windowcleaningwarehouse.co.uk/shop/
You will need the following
Pole & Brush Head £69.50
Backpack £99.70
Di Tank £79.50
Resin £69.00
TDS Meter £19.50
Total £337.20
Vat £59.01
Grand Total £396.21
If you want to save even more money then you will need to shop around, but you can save on all of the above apart from the backpack.
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You forgot somewhere to store the water at home.
Also barrels to transport the water in whilst in the van, unless you're only using one knapsack of water a day!
Does the 99 squid for the backpack include a charger?
R.O pipework for the DI unit.
Fittings etc for knapsack.
I don't store water at home and you don't need a water tank either, a friend of mine fill up his backpack at the customers house with his di unit.
There is a charger with the backpack.
You don't even need a van, at christmas I used a corsa with no problem at all, I even was able to fit my carpet cleaning machine in as well as the wfp equipment.
This is a very basic system that will get anyone up and running with wfp, as you earn, you can then upgrade to a more indepth system.
If you want to make excuses for someone not to go wfp then there are many, but these people will not be very sucessful in business, a sucessful business person looks at how to overcome problems rather than let the problem overcome them.
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You also have to climb the ladder with your tools, then drill a hole in the wall ;D. Is this contravening health and safety? ???
he charged the customer for scaffolding to do that
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how long does this thread stay at the top of the forum? seems like forever
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Until, we have exhausted it.
It was a topical issue, which was discussed at Windex, I will un stick it soon.
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http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2009/coiem09.htm
Window cleaning fine by HSE
idealrob
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and this link
http://www.lrbconsulting.co.uk/news_article_name/cleanerfalls.aspx
idealrob