Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: dazmond on December 04, 2009, 08:07:38 pm
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after quite a few months on ere mulling it all over and changing my mind like the weather ive decided to stay trad.
1.i live in 1st floor flat on a water meter.
2.cant afford a car AND a van!
3.over half my round v.compact 3 bedders,i dont think WFP will be faster on this work.
4.domestic custys dont like wfp!
5.easy to make a mess of windows with wfp
6.hassle with pumps,hoses etc
7.higher overheads,insurance,resin,poles,pumps etc
8.dont want to carry a ton of water about just to clean windows!!
9.hard to get a good finish when its even slightlywindy!
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after quite a few months on ere mulling it all over and changing my mind like the weather ive decided to stay trad.
1.i live in 1st floor flat on a water meter.
2.cant afford a car AND a van!
3.over half my round v.compact 3 bedders,i dont think WFP will be faster on this work.
4.domestic custys dont like wfp!
5.easy to make a mess of windows with wfp
6.hassle with pumps,hoses etc
7.higher overheads,insurance,resin,poles,pumps etc
8.dont want to carry a ton of water about just to clean windows!!
9.hard to get a good finish when its even slightlywindy!
Only if your rubbish at it.. ;) ;D
but again, its your choice. I know my preference :D
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i decided that long ago ;D ;D
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after quite a few months on ere mulling it all over and changing my mind like the weather ive decided to stay trad.
1.i live in 1st floor flat on a water meter.
2.cant afford a car AND a van!
3.over half my round v.compact 3 bedders,i dont think WFP will be faster on this work.
4.domestic custys dont like wfp!
5.easy to make a mess of windows with wfp
6.hassle with pumps,hoses etc
7.higher overheads,insurance,resin,poles,pumps etc
8.dont want to carry a ton of water about just to clean windows!!
9.hard to get a good finish when its even slightlywindy!
Good on you, i don't see me changing either. If it works why try and fix it!!
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after quite a few months on ere mulling it all over and changing my mind like the weather ive decided to stay trad.
1.i live in 1st floor flat on a water meter.
2.cant afford a car AND a van!
3.over half my round v.compact 3 bedders,i dont think WFP will be faster on this work.
4.domestic custys dont like wfp!
5.easy to make a mess of windows with wfp
6.hassle with pumps,hoses etc
7.higher overheads,insurance,resin,poles,pumps etc
8.dont want to carry a ton of water about just to clean windows!!
9.hard to get a good finish when its even slightlywindy!
Well if ya put it like that ;D So what ya selling????????? ;)
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While I think some guys on here who have made the switch may disagree with a few of your reasons it seems you have made the right decision based on your situation. Just goes to show that trad is not a dying art after all.
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While I think some guys on here who have made the switch may disagree with a few of your reasons it seems you have made the right decision based on your situation. Just goes to show that trad is not a dying art after all.
Unless you fall off your ladder that is.
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I must admit I enjoy trad and I do not have a problem with either system, but I do see WFP and progress forward. I do both and WFP is much faster and results are good. I will always offer both.
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im staying traditional with my domestic but hopefully in the new year im getting wfp for commercial work
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While I think some guys on here who have made the switch may disagree with a few of your reasons it seems you have made the right decision based on your situation. Just goes to show that trad is not a dying art after all.
Unless you fall off your ladder that is.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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hmmm. i think you will see trad disapear as they enforce more H&S
I do both and they both have good points - i think trad is a better job on the glass and faces of the frame ( for those who clean them )
however i did 4 new cleans today, i used WFP all of them and can say that there is no way any trad worker could get out all the dirt and spiders crap traped in the frame tops and between the openers, so WFP is great for that - it is also good to maintain a good quality job on the glass after being done trad. it certainly does not polish/clean the glass like scrim/micro fibre cloth.
i have found WFP custy's are generally cleaner than trad when i return after 4 weeks ie.. no spiders webs/poo etc.
as for time - personally its around the same for ground level - do not use ladders under any circs - 1 fall was enough for me!!
Darran
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i do both i never really switched to wfp i just added it, to do jobs that were suited to wfp and get work that couldnt be done from the ladder. i then switched the jobs i couldnt care less whether i lost them or not, now i have a nice 50% mix that suits me especially just now when systems freeze up etc
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I can see your reasoning, and respect your decision, but having done trad for 10 years and nearly 3 wfp, I could never go back now.
I did half a dozen bungalows trad today, and in the cold it's a nightmare for smearing when you're detailing. >:(
And more than anything it's bloody knackering!
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We've had these talks before on here. I quite like you Dazmond because you are a tryer.You've said that you've learned lots from this forum.
Pretty much all the list of reasons you give have some truth.The bits about the flat and the water would take some figuring.But this is about money Dazmond, it's not about anything else.
When i came on this forum 3yrs ago there had been many trad/wfp debates.I found trad work hard, and the most i could earn was about £80 per day.I couldn't even imagine earning more than that.A guy posting on here did a sort of diary of his switch.He had eleven years standing then, and i notice you have fifteen now.
His posts were very instrumental in making me go wfp.In fact i found his posts very sad.To start with he was a very clever and able man, he posted superbly (he still does) and he had a brilliant technical grasp.He was very likeable and a lot of people followed what he had to say.As it happens i did not rate him as much of a business man though but you may have noticed that my judgements can be a bit harsh.
In any event he chronicled in detail how he gave all of his customers explanation and warning letters.He researched what pole and what system.He pre cleaned the frames to avoid problems on the penultimate trad clean. He had a lot of doubts.
Cutting to the chase he had very few problems, but what made me want to cry for him was that on day four of wfp working no harder than he normaly did and finishing quite early he beat his best ever day trad.I think the figure was £174.
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i feel a lot better after finally making my mind up..........for now..........!! ;D ;D.i will be gettin wfp for extras like conny roofs,gutters etc but itll just go on outside taps! ;D ;D.im happy with the way i work and dont use ladders that much anyway!
thanks for everyone who has answered my questions regarding wfp and all the banter!this forum has helped me a lot!thanks guys! ;D ;D
i will be posting informative traditional window cleaning tips for those just starting out and trad pole tips from my 15 yrs experience in this game from now on!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I can see your reasoning, and respect your decision, but having done trad for 10 years and nearly 3 wfp, I could never go back now.
I did half a dozen bungalows trad today, and in the cold it's a nightmare for smearing when you're detailing. >:(
And more than anything it's bloody knackering!
Or in the summer with the blaring sun it can some times be a nightmare. Especially with cheaper cleaning solutions, :-X
Looking forward to summer Wfp and not having the heat up the ladder, and the water/solution drying as your trying to clean.
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Fair enough all the points seem valid all though I'd say I disagree with points 4,5 & 9 unless you don't know what your doing.
Have a mate in a similar situation, although he lives in a house and has a garden, but has the same type of round and works from his car with six 25 litre barrels and a pure freedom trolly. He trads the downs and seems to do well out of it.
Simon.
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It's the same for me as Dazmond, I've never used or seen WFP except for Germans using WFP on com work. It's only an option for my Brit custies here anyway. It's not the cost factor either, my carpet machines cost alot more than WFP setups.
Just think about this though. When it gets that far in UK, that 99% of window cleaners are WFP. There is an estate of lets say 2000 houses, 6 WC's clean there, 5 are WFP and 1 is trad, who woulld have the advantage for winning custies? And before all the WFP guys say hang him, ;D It's not the amount of work the trad guy can manage, he can employ too, just like WFP guys can. Has the trad guy got a better chance of getting more custies than the WFP guys? Because people prefer trad to WFP? What do you think?
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We've had these talks before on here. I quite like you Dazmond because you are a tryer.You've said that you've learned lots from this forum.
Pretty much all the list of reasons you give have some truth.The bits about the flat and the water would take some figuring.But this is about money Dazmond, it's not about anything else.
When i came on this forum 3yrs ago there had been many trad/wfp debates.I found trad work hard, and the most i could earn was about £80 per day.I couldn't even imagine earning more than that.A guy posting on here did a sort of diary of his switch.He had eleven years standing then, and i notice you have fifteen now.
His posts were very instrumental in making me go wfp.In fact i found his posts very sad.To start with he was a very clever and able man, he posted superbly (he still does) and he had a brilliant technical grasp.He was very likeable and a lot of people followed what he had to say.As it happens i did not rate him as much of a business man though but you may have noticed that my judgements can be a bit harsh.
In any event he chronicled in detail how he gave all of his customers explanation and warning letters.He researched what pole and what system.He pre cleaned the frames to avoid problems on the penultimate trad clean. He had a lot of doubts.
Cutting to the chase he had very few problems, but what made me want to cry for him was that on day four of wfp working no harder than he normaly did and finishing quite early he beat his best ever day trad.I think the figure was £174.
I dont mean to offend - £80?? either your prices are shocking or you are really unfit,
even on my worst work trad theres something seriously wrong if i hadnt earned that by 12 at the very latest!!!
trad shouldnt be underestimated, before wfp was around no one left wc because they might fall off a ladder, use it safely end of
i am switching for different reasons but i think carrying on trad is fine, i would if i could, i have no problem wuth it and will miss it alot
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The tips will be good dazmond because i'm still pretty useless at it. You feel better because you've made a decision, and i feel better because i've tried to tip you the wink. I can remember squeaky's posts, the thing about squeaky was that he was supposed to be good at trad and very fast.It was this pride that held him back, i was never that good, so i had nothing to lose.
Not offended in the least sean, we are talking three weeks into the game.I would be pretty annoyed if i hadn't hit it by 9am.But this isn't about bragging how much we earn.This guys a grafter who deserves a chance.
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o ok
i thought you meant when you were trad all the time :)
wasnt trying to brag £80 in a morning is hardly bragging lol
sometimes that takes an hour sometime half a day
its about the long haul this game and consistency
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i think given my present circumstances im making the right decision.my girlfriend is not v.well and and my brother got 2 kids its not practical to have a van.i like havin the comfort of a car.also camping in summer etc.i like to keep my life as simple as possible!it makes me happier! ;D ;D.i can pay my bills,go on holiday etc,etc.im upping some of my underpriced work and slowly getting better paying work.im doing ok.i dont think trad will die out as some of the houses i clean u need to get on the roof to clean some of the windows or go over the flat roof!wfp is in the minority on domestics IMO.most people never heard of wfp and care even less near where i live! ;D ;D
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dazmond it sounds like your trying to convince your self that wfp is no good ,it is good and can be a better finish than trad on some windows , you could try a back pack .
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i agree in a flat it's hard to do.I'm always trying to tell other people what they should do and run their lives as lots on here will testify ;D
No one ever listens to me.Lots of us tried to convince squeaks for instance but got no where.In the end his personal circs dictated what he did and he made his own mind up.Thinking back it was pretty funny though, if his van didn't start on the slope he parked it on he had to push it back up.
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i agree in a flat it's hard to do.I'm always trying to tell other people what they should do and run their lives as lots on here will testify ;D
No one ever listens to me.Lots of us tried to convince squeaks for instance but got no where.In the end his personal circs dictated what he did and he made his own mind up.Thinking back it was pretty funny though, if his van didn't start on the slope he parked it on he had to push it back up.
Blimey, you haven't forgotten much have you? ;D
Did you have a different user name back then?
You're right, it was repetetive strain that caused me to change.
Now I've got it from pole work! ;D
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I guess it's horses for courses; if you spend long enough trying to convince yourself that WFP is no good you'll do it eventually.
Personally I would never go back to trad only; a fall from 3 stories made that an easy decision :'(
WFP is brilliant; it's quicker, safer, equally as good when it comes to quality of work, allows you to gain work you couldn't possibly do from a ladder, the list goes on.
And I have only ever found ONE potential customer who wouldn't have her windows cleaned using wfp. I refused her custom! I have never lost an existing customer due to using wfp. Where this assumption that domestic customers don't like wfp come from I don't know but it's rubbish.
The day WILL come when, due to H+S, this decision is taken out of our hands and all the doubters WILL change to wfp. Can't wait ;D
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obviously if it were made illegal to use ladders then i would go wfp.but they wont!i would never dream of using ladders on 2nd floor windows!above slippy porches etc, etc,.
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And before all the WFP guys say hang him, ;D It's not the amount of work the trad guy can manage, he can employ too, just like WFP guys can.
This may no longer be true. The TWAH directive is aimed at employers who direct their employees to use ladders more so than sole trader window cleaners.
Requiring employees to use ladders in circumstances where WFP could be used may be illegal, and would certainly raise important issues in the event of the employee having an accident while following instructions from the employer to use a ladder.
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i wouldnt dream of employing!certainly not on ladders!i know plenty of window cleaners that do!and not legally!!asking for trouble IMO! ::) ::)
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i agree in a flat it's hard to do.I'm always trying to tell other people what they should do and run their lives as lots on here will testify ;D
No one ever listens to me.Lots of us tried to convince squeaks for instance but got no where.In the end his personal circs dictated what he did and he made his own mind up.Thinking back it was pretty funny though, if his van didn't start on the slope he parked it on he had to push it back up.
Blimey, you haven't forgotten much have you? ;D
Did you have a different user name back then?
You're right, it was repetetive strain that caused me to change.
Now I've got it from pole work! ;D
slumpy is on his 39 name now, did he have a different name, wait till FTP reads that, he will need to hold his sides in very tightly
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You're right, it was repetetive strain that caused me to change.
Now I've got it from pole work! ;D
i must not post
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i will let tosh post it :P
go on tosh, he wants that post
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When i came on this forum 3yrs ago there had been many trad/wfp debates.I found trad work hard, and the most i could earn was about £80 per day.I couldn't even imagine earning more than that.A guy posting on here did a sort of diary of his switch.He had eleven years standing then, and i notice you have fifteen now.
His posts were very instrumental in making me go wfp.In fact i found his posts very sad.To start with he was a very clever and able man, he posted superbly (he still does) and he had a brilliant technical grasp.He was very likeable and a lot of people followed what he had to say.As it happens i did not rate him as much of a business man though but you may have noticed that my judgements can be a bit harsh.
In any event he chronicled in detail how he gave all of his customers explanation and warning letters.He researched what pole and what system.He pre cleaned the frames to avoid problems on the penultimate trad clean. He had a lot of doubts.
Cutting to the chase he had very few problems, but what made me want to cry for him was that on day four of wfp working no harder than he normaly did and finishing quite early he beat his best ever day trad.I think the figure was £174.
Thanks Slumpy! ;D ;D
Going WFP was the BEST!!! career move I have EVER made.
Not going WFP might be the worst youve made Daz.
Sorry mate, but if the main issue is the fact that you live on a first floor flat, rent a lockup.
Clive wanna see my new gutter brochure?? ;D
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after quite a few months on ere mulling it all over and changing my mind like the weather ive decided to stay trad.
1.i live in 1st floor flat on a water meter.
2.cant afford a car AND a van!
3.over half my round v.compact 3 bedders,i dont think WFP will be faster on this work.
4.domestic custys dont like wfp!
5.easy to make a mess of windows with wfp
6.hassle with pumps,hoses etc
7.higher overheads,insurance,resin,poles,pumps etc
8.dont want to carry a ton of water about just to clean windows!!
9.hard to get a good finish when its even slightlywindy!
IMO what i have seen trad does a better job and the windows are dry when you leave what i find customers like.WFP is good for hard to reach windows and conservatories but as for maybe quickness i see know benefit.I reckon some of my smaller jobs would take longer.But at a later date i will consider a back pack or trolley for the hard to reach windows and conservatory roofs, but where i can get easy i will do trad as i can leave them dry imo the way it should be done.
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dazmond it sounds like your trying to convince your self that wfp is no good ,it is good and can be a better finish than trad on some windows , you could try a back pack .
Some windows what about the others?
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i think this ones gona run and run!keep it going lads!! ;D ;Dim getting ready for work! ;D ;D
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And before all the WFP guys say hang him, ;D It's not the amount of work the trad guy can manage, he can employ too, just like WFP guys can.
This may no longer be true. The TWAH directive is aimed at employers who direct their employees to use ladders more so than sole trader window cleaners.
Requiring employees to use ladders in circumstances where WFP could be used may be illegal, and would certainly raise important issues in the event of the employee having an accident while following instructions from the employer to use a ladder.
You could be right there Ian, I've not thought about the UK laws. But do you see the point I'm trying to make? The trad guy would have a selling point to potential custies.
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The day WILL come when, due to H+S, this decision is taken out of our hands and all the doubters WILL change to wfp. Can't wait ;D
Why can't you wait? Why would you benefit from that?
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Just think about this though. When it gets that far in UK, that 99% of window cleaners are WFP. There is an estate of lets say 2000 houses, 6 WC's clean there, 5 are WFP and 1 is trad, who woulld have the advantage for winning custies?
One of the 5 WFP 'ers
why? because if 99% are using WFP that would mean that it is the norm and what the majority of customers will use
And before all the WFP guys say hang him, ;D It's not the amount of work the trad guy can manage, he can employ too, just like WFP guys can. Has the trad guy got a better chance of getting more custies than the WFP guys? Because people prefer trad to WFP? What do you think?
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Wont be a problem then will it Helen? So how I understand that, custies would prefer WFP, because they "know" it's the norm? The trad guy would eventually lose custies because they want the "norm".
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i will always do some trad work. im going wfp by end jan as i`ve seen how its improved others businesses and made their life easier. i think its a great bit of kit but like alot of cleaners arnt used to big outlays in this type of work ie its always been a few quid here and their for some fairy and some rubbers, now its thousands of pounds to keep up with the times
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Maybe a few thousand for the initial outlay, but over the lifetime use of the equipment that could only work out at most few pounds a day, beside the safety aspect of wfp any system should enable you to recover that small cost each day as well as earn you more money each day.
Traditional methods now complement wfp; it’s not the other way round. That’s just out of date customers & window cleaners.
i aggree. i cant wait for my swith over in jan. i think it will be worth every penny. i`ve used wfp before so know how quick i could do some of my work and make more profit a day.
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I do so many houses now that has got several windows I would never be able to reach with a traditional pole, so even though the initial outlay is higher then trad, you do work faster, and clean more windows, so you do earn more. Since I've had my system I've earned about 30k I think, and will earn me a lot lot more in future. So £1500 to £2000 really isn't that much if you think about it. And all you spend on your system is tax deductible anyway.
Besides, if you start off any other business it's usually not a couple of grand, rather tens of thousands of pounds.
And all this, most importantly, without breaking anything or endangering my life.
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Anyone who uses the 'its more expensive to operate with WFP' to avoid making the switch is right. However theyre failing themselves when they neglect to look at the fact that you earn a shedload more WFP than trad.
Ive seen figures bandying about on here about how much more you can earn WFP than trad and the often quoted figure is about 30% more.
In my opinion and experience its a lot more than that.
So yes WFP is more expensive, but your earnings increase dramatically. Covering the increase expenses EASILY!!
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My personal experience on it is
24 years trad, i've went about my business effectively and have a good business of many varying property types, i'd heard of the wfp branch of things but thought i'm ok why change ?
But 6 months ago i discovered this forum and a couple of others and started to slowly get drawn in by the subject, so after many weeks/months of studying the posts and following links i decided to invest. I have now been using wfp for a month, i've got a new spring in my step regarding my business and can say it has been the right decision for me. But as it says on the tin (my transit connect) Reach and Wash & Traditional Window Cleaning, meaning i am not saying one is right over the other ,no way i use both forms my round demands this.
But i admit to looking forward more to the wfp part of my work as i gain experience and i must admit that the end results that i'm experiencing are way more than i was expecting at the start. :)
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My advice to anyone is switch to wfp. You have chosen to stay trad.When you do switch to wfp in the future you will wish you had done it sooner.
I did 26yrs trad and I will have done 4 yrs wfp at the end of the year.
My biggest regret is I wish I was wfp many many years ago. I have helped 5 local w/cleaners switch over to wfp and every one is glad they did it. Not at first but after 6months wfp no one wants to go back.
I do very little trad,still carry my ladders but I hate trad. Wfp all the way. I wont say how much more I earn wfp as I dont want to offend anyonebut I will explain it this way. If I count how much I have earned in the last 4 years wfp and compare how long it would take to get the same amount of money cleaning trad based on my best takings for a year. It would of taken me 7 years trad.
So I know if I work 20yrs wfp it would take me 35yrs to earn the same money doing trad. So for those who say money is not the driving force as they normally value their time more then wfpis a no brainer.
On monday I had my best ever days earnings on my own, I was going for it and I did not stop all day.If I was Trad it would of taken me 4 days to get the same money.I was on domestic work to boot. Wfp is the way yo go.Neil
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I think the posts in reply to this thread have been great, and best of all put there for all the right reasons. I, probably like others, have noticed that dazmond is straight forward and doesn't pretend to be anything he's not.That's why so many have tried to tip him the wink without trying to win an argument.
......We can wait untill he asks how to go about the transition with limited funds and the additional problem of living in a flat before we start a proper argument ;D
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Clive you have email
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Btw :
2.cant afford a car AND a van!
I know you still need to pay for it, but you can claim 100% on your van if you only use it for business. So at the end of each month, just take off the money you have spent on your van from the tax you have to set aside each month.
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daz im sorry to hear you wont be moving on with the WFP, why not keep the car and run it from the wages you give yourself and in turn buy a cheaper van say around 1k and pay for it from your business like the rest of us do, i have a car and a van, vans for work, car is for private use, simple. Whilst i respect your decision it does seem to me that you have worried too much about it for too long and didnt just 'get on with it' it WILL improve you, customers DONT care if its trad or WFP as long as their windows are cleaned, i cleaned a house yesterday that was cleaned the previous time with trad and the woman said it was awful, left smears everywhere and didnt even touch the frames at all, now her windows are clean and the frames are white too, she said it was a brilliant job :)
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after quite a few months on ere mulling it all over and changing my mind like the weather ive decided to stay trad.
1.i live in 1st floor flat on a water meter.
2.cant afford a car AND a van!
3.over half my round v.compact 3 bedders,i dont think WFP will be faster on this work.
4.domestic custys dont like wfp!
5.easy to make a mess of windows with wfp
6.hassle with pumps,hoses etc
7.higher overheads,insurance,resin,poles,pumps etc
8.dont want to carry a ton of water about just to clean windows!!
9.hard to get a good finish when its even slightlywindy!
1. <i live in 1st floor flat on a water meter.>
I'm in a 1st floor flat too (non meterable property due to some shared pipework). I asked around and made an arrangement for sort of premises with someone.
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2. <cant afford a car AND a van!>
So just have a van then - or do you have family to transport? I live on my own so van only is fine for me. Alternatively, it is possible to have a dual purpose vehile though I wouldn't fancy that myself.
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3. <over half my round v.compact 3 bedders,i dont think WFP will be faster on this work.>
With that sort of work the time saving is less I grant you. But why restrict yourself? Also no chance of falling.
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4. <domestic custys dont like wfp!>
Some don't. This put me off at first too. It took a few months but they all came out of the woodwork eventually and I gradually replaced them. Lost about 4% - 5% of my work through it. Gained a load of work that I could not have done from a ladder though. I took the view that they will not be paying me if I break a leg or worse. If they don't give a damn about my safety, I don't particularly want to supply them with a service anyway. Basically, if they don't like it - tough. They aren't the ones who have to suffer the consequences.
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5. <easy to make a mess of windows with wfp>
At first, there is some truth in this - just like it was easier to mess up windows with a squeegee before getting more practice. You soon get the hang of it though. Having said that, yes I agree that there are some windows where WFP doesn't work so well. They are a very small minority. In such cases, if I feel that the quality issue is a legitimate complaint, I will sometimes offer to do WFP on the tops and trad on the bottoms - but only if I like them. If they're miserable gits, they can find someone else to do it.
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6. <hassle with pumps,hoses etc>
Too true. It can be aggro sometimes. It's important to have spares of the most important bits and a small tool kit to make repairs on the fly if needed. You soon learn what needs doing and when. Bear in mind that what you read on here is the sum total of all the forum users' problems. If you look at each individual's problems, it will give a more realistic picture. What actually has happened with me is that as I encounter problems, I adapt and work around them.
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7. <higher overheads,insurance,resin,poles,pumps etc>
Agreed - but also a far higher turnover with which to pay for them. My turnover has increased greatly as have my expenses. However, the turnover has increased a lot more than the expenses leading to higher profit. I won't go into details of income but suffice to say that my profitr margin is much higher and I have a bit more time off than I used to. Also, and this is very important to me, because of the way WFP works, I have more energy to enjoy the time off that I get instead of needing longer recuperation time after shinning up a ladder all week. This may be an age thing though and perhaps you're younger than me?
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8. <dont want to carry a ton of water about just to clean windows!!>
You don't have to. If you have an electronic flow controller in your system, half a ton will do most days - certainly 650kg ;D . It's not as if you have to carry it on your back, is it? :)
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9. <hard to get a good finish when its even slightlywindy!>
Wind can affect the finish though I reckon it needs a fairly strong one to affect the work too badly. Apart from that, I reckon this can apply to trad too anyway. It is true that sometimes there are windows that don't take to WFP too well. When that is the case, I say the customer has to accept that the job will be of a lower standard in order to avoid the risk of a dead or injured window cleaner in their garden. These people will not pick up the pieces for you if you can't work. They will just get another window cleaner. Likewise, all you need to do is get another customer.
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Of course the choice is yours. I didn't really get the safety stuff until I had been on WFP for a while. I had always felt fine on ladders - but there were odd, occasional moments on them. It's those moments that need to be focussed on. Jokingly called brown trouser moments, they are the moments where, if you get it wrong just once, you (or those you leave behind) could have serious problems. In 14 years of daily ladder work, I only had two very near misses. I got lucky. But there were other times when I could have got hurt - it's just that there are two that stand out as being worse than the others.
Sorry if this sounds like a lecture. There is no need for any window cleanerr to die or get hurt in the course of their work.
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dazmond,could you just get a backpack and wfp?get some barrels from a car wash for free,and then you could offer the clean on those houses you could not before,and just trad the rest of your round
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Anyone who uses the 'its more expensive to operate with WFP' to avoid making the switch is right. However theyre failing themselves when they neglect to look at the fact that you earn a shedload more WFP than trad.
Ive seen figures bandying about on here about how much more you can earn WFP than trad and the often quoted figure is about 30% more.
In my opinion and experience its a lot more than that.
So yes WFP is more expensive, but your earnings increase dramatically. Covering the increase expenses EASILY!!
Well my turnover has nearly doubled since I switched - that's not all down to WFP though. It's also true that I had some health problems when working trad that held me back a bit.
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My advice to anyone is switch to wfp. You have chosen to stay trad.When you do switch to wfp in the future you will wish you had done it sooner.
I did 26yrs trad and I will have done 4 yrs wfp at the end of the year.
My biggest regret is I wish I was wfp many many years ago.
Likewise Neil. I could have kicked myself that I didn't switch when I first heard of it. I saw some guy using it one day (an employee of a company) and he just said that it worked because the water was pure and it cost 30 grand to set up (this was in the late 90s). I just thought "sod that" and never gave it another thought until some years later. Where my thinking was faulty was that I should have been calculating how much per month a loan would cost and how much extra per month I could earn.
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a typcial day for me before switch was 12-17 houses off the ladders.3-5 bedroom houses.
i have now been 6mths wfp,not fully but now 50%,but where i use wfp on same houses iam now doing on a slow day 20house min most i done was 28.thats just in 1day,iam not fast and just take me time,
its now abled me togo out get another newer bigger van,to be able now to convert the rset of the round after xmas.
you say you cant offered van and car,but nobody said about a trailer set-up.
does it do a better job?????????????
answer its only as good as the person using it ;) ;) ;)
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LEAPSTALLBUILDINGS (Reply 51)
Wow! mate.
That was SOME reply. Well balanced/well thought out/well put. Good on ya! If that hasn't convinced Dazmond (and every other doubter) to go WFP - nothing will!
Mike
By the way, Dazmond – Point 2
I work out of a 6 seater MPV (people carrier) with the rear 2 seats replaced by a 175 litre tank and so does my son-in-law (his is a 250 litre tank). We took this route to ‘test the water, WFP way’ and we were soon ‘won over’.
If you wish to consider this option – email me and I’ll send you some pictures.
Mike
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thanks guys for all the informative posts!it seems ill be making a huge mistake if i stay trad!im looking at another 30 yrs of window cleaning(im 38) now and ive a round of 320 custys.i suppose its the change/expense of it all but if i dont ill prob never really improve my business much.i had a few probs with the booze a few yrs ago and got myself in a mess finacially.just paid all my debts off so ive still got a bad credit history and been sober for over 3 years now.im gona ask my brother will he lend me 6grand.i could easily pay him back £300 a month for 20 months.i reckon ill earn that extra nearly every month by charging pound extra for windows above conservatorys,skylights and getting round on time!
ford transit connect van £3,500
van insurance £500
400lt van mount,fitted,slx,di only,few spares,etc £2,000
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if our kid wont lend me the money.(by the way he has got it!).ill just have to keep plugging away and save up.buy the van first and then when funds allow get a system.i know i could buy a cheaper van/go diy with the system but i want it to last about 5 years!and make me some money!!its just going to take time.maybe a year or 2 unfortunately!but ill work towards it steadily.that might be my only option! :-\
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thanks guys for all the informative posts!it seems ill be making a huge mistake if i stay trad!im looking at another 30 yrs of window cleaning(im 38) now and ive a round of 320 custys.i suppose its the change/expense of it all but if i dont ill prob never really improve my business much.i had a few probs with the booze a few yrs ago and got myself in a mess finacially.just paid all my debts off so ive still got a bad credit history and been sober for over 3 years now.im gona ask my brother will he lend me 6grand.i could easily pay him back £300 a month for 20 months.i reckon ill earn that extra nearly every month by charging pound extra for windows above conservatorys,skylights and getting round on time!
ford transit connect van £3,500
van insurance £500
400lt van mount,fitted,slx,di only,few spares,etc £2,000
I have so many jobs that are now going to be worth more due to extra windows getting done and regular conserv roofs.
I have just invested in Wfp and all the posts on here can make you worry a bit, and do make me worry some times tbh. But then I look at ther overala responce and with the problems, everyone cant be lying. It has to have a better purpose in more cases than not otherwise it wouldnt be where it is, and these people wouldnt all be agreeing on the pros.
Good luck with what ever you decide in the end.
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thanks guys for all the informative posts!it seems ill be making a huge mistake if i stay trad!im looking at another 30 yrs of window cleaning(im 38) now and ive a round of 320 custys.i suppose its the change/expense of it all but if i dont ill prob never really improve my business much.i had a few probs with the booze a few yrs ago and got myself in a mess finacially.just paid all my debts off so ive still got a bad credit history and been sober for over 3 years now.im gona ask my brother will he lend me 6grand.i could easily pay him back £300 a month for 20 months.i reckon ill earn that extra nearly every month by charging pound extra for windows above conservatorys,skylights and getting round on time!
ford transit connect van £3,500
van insurance £500
400lt van mount,fitted,slx,di only,few spares,etc £2,000
Well done on your recovery Dazmond. You should be getting past that head scramble of early recovery by now I reckon :) . This helps me understand a little more about your apparent reluctance to risk complicating your work life. Also, I'm well aware of the crazy targets our heads can set for us early on.
Maybe start off with simplified WFP if you want to keep things simpler for now? Perhaps a backpack from WCW, a pole, and a piece of hose with a connector at either end (to save on moving the backpack so much), and find a place you can buy pure water. If you do tops only with such a setup, it won't speed you up much but at least you will be safer. You will probably manage the tops of two standard houses with a backpack - perhaps three. It will probably give you a taster for WFP too for when (not if) you feel ready to go for it in a bigger way. WFP can be a bit like alcohol. Once you get a taste for it....................
When I first started to see the potential for WFP, I was a bit like Mr Toad after he saw his first car ;D .
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thanks guys for all the informative posts!it seems ill be making a huge mistake if i stay trad!im looking at another 30 yrs of window cleaning(im 38) now and ive a round of 320 custys.i suppose its the change/expense of it all but if i dont ill prob never really improve my business much.i had a few probs with the booze a few yrs ago and got myself in a mess finacially.just paid all my debts off so ive still got a bad credit history and been sober for over 3 years now.im gona ask my brother will he lend me 6grand.i could easily pay him back £300 a month for 20 months.i reckon ill earn that extra nearly every month by charging pound extra for windows above conservatorys,skylights and getting round on time!
ford transit connect van £3,500
van insurance £500
400lt van mount,fitted,slx,di only,few spares,etc £2,000
6 grand to start eh?
If you apply yourself, there's no reason not to make that back (and more) in the first year. You get tax relief on it too. You'll need it because of the extra money you will make :)
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I've seen nice Berlingos for £1500 or so and surely a 400ltr diy system can be done for under a grand. I know its nice to have a decent van etc but at the end of the day they all do the same thing.
The days of finding georgian windows and leaded ones a nuisance(especially when they are wet) will be a thing of the past.
Go for it Dazmond and like most are saying, you'll wish you did it sooner.
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I've seen nice Berlingos for £1500 or so and surely a 400ltr diy system can be done for under a grand. I know its nice to have a decent van etc but at the end of the day they all do the same thing.
Correct.
A cleaner who recently asked me about WFP has just shown me his van (Berlingo) which he bought for £1500 and 250 litre 'set up' (Di only) which he bought and fitted for £900.
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thanks again guys.a cheap van is false economy IMO.i dont want a cheap van if im transporting a weight of water in the back.also i want it to last me about 5 yrs so im not changing vans all the time!
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My 1st van was a berlingo, superb workhorse. The better ones will handle 800kg payload too.
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Dazmond,I was at the auctions the other week and Berlingo's were going for around £2000 on a 58 plate with low milage, Renault Kangoo's were even less,£1500-£1800 for same year and low milage,If I did not need to get the kids in the back I would of defo gone for one of these,probably the Berlingo,There is a big commercial auction in/near Manchester at Belle Vue,go along and have a look and just get a feel for the prices,Its on Wednesdays if its going to be a bad day your not losing anything(Then again it always raining in Manchester!I have done a fair bit of work there and I can safely say I believe it is the wettest place in the country!!!) I too would of loved a connect,just the right size,but once seats were fitted in the rear there would of been no room for anything else.Its amazing how much kids cost you,even in areas of life you would never expect :( But they are worth it :)
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thanks chopsie yeh could go to an auction for a van but u never know what ur buying!i know our kids bought a few cars from auction and there have ALL been dodgy.driveshafts botched up etc.i suppose its looking at them as best as u can.ive no experience with auctions but i did buy a cheap sierra estate off a mate that was from an auction and it was mint!had it 6 yrs till i blew the head gasket! :o ::) ;D
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Where are you Daz?
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salford,manchester.THE JEWEL OF THE NORTH!! ;D ;D
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A cheaper van isnt necessarily false economy mate. It will enable you for a short period to increase your income dramatically helping you to save for the all important permanent system. I first went down the trolley route, lot more inconvenient than van mount but enabled me to increse my earnings by about 80%.
I worked out of a car with that too, thought about a hatchback? £600 for a motor, £1,000 for a trolley system, there you go, already youre earning shed loads more due to increased output, and getting to save lets say £150 a week?
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i can save £150 a week most weeks now just trad.prices go up in april so thatll add another couple of hundred a month.ive finished paying debts off.(what a great feelling!).so havent got that to pay plus no council tax till april as all paid up for this year.(never done that before!).ive also earned roughly 5 grand more this year than last year TRAD by gaining better paying work and working harder!!so i should have no probs savin up.at least ive got a plan now!this forum has helped immensely over the last 9 months!!