Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: mattman on February 27, 2009, 10:19:27 pm
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doing a clean at a very fancy golf club on monday(restaurant area carpet),
it is an axminster fitted in strips(almost like wallpaper on the floor)!! i am going to use the bonnet system on it as i think shrinkage may be an issue if overwet. i think it has been cleaned before, been down for a few years. any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!! i am panicking a bit with this one!
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Mate if the seams are nice and tight and secure you can HWE. I've cleaned loads of them without shrinkage. Pre spray with pre spray gold (or similar) and rinse with acidic rinse or I just love fibresafe gold. If it does not need it then bonnet, but it can be a little limited on longer pile. When rotarying either brush or bonnet don't dwell on the seam, rather run adjacent and let the overlap clean. If HWE avoid heavy wetting on the seam same again run adjacent to the seam. Make sure and use good dry strokes, wool will hang on to water the aim is to not over wet by dwelling in one area, rather keep moving and using dry strokes. If it is really dirty you can leave a dust line, so again keep the wand moving across, go back dry, then go again. Keep your water temp down, 40 - 50 max and pre vac well as it will pay dividends. TBH there is nothing better looking than fresh cleaned wooly! As a final touch you post bonnet, this will really help drying and then groom it with your rake.
Just take your time and You'll be chuffed!
Oh should also say if it has been cleaned before you may need to use acidic rinse only. Other cleaners may have used high ph chems. If it looks a little dull and sad this could be the reason. Try rinsing a nasty area and it may do the trick. To test spray some water in trigger sprayer, allow a minute or 2 dwell and gently massage the area. Use a ph test strip, anything above 7/8 or blue and it certainly needs a rinse.
My watch words on wool are 'keep it low' if it's water, ph or temp just keep it low.
Good luck
Simon
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No need to panic Mattman, HWE would be my preferred choice and if you are careful not to overwet in the first place then you will not have the problem of overwetting.
We do not see that type of carpet very often nowadays, they were woven on narrow looms and then stitched together, often by hand but carpet laying was a very skilled craft back then. By a co- incidence I cleaned a similar carpet last week in a house where I used to clean the carpets in a good few years ago. An old retired lady doctor lived there and after she passed away the house was closed up for a long time. Now a young couple have moved in and I was back again cleaning the same carpets which must be there since the 1970's.
HWE, plenty of drying passes, no problem at all with shrinkage or anything else and they were like new when I had finished. But they don't make carpets like that anymore, at least not mass produced.
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Simon ommited one important thing in his method which is important , when testing the ph dont use tap water.
Geoff
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I'd just like to echo the advice above. Keep the Ph neutral. I would suggest that you pick a Woolsafe approved product - you know then the product is safe to use. Keep the moisture down with plenty of dry passes. Wool can hold a lot of water - but thats not the risk - the backing is - hence the advice to be careful near the seams is spot on. The only note of caution I would sound is about using a bonett pass afterwards. Generally Axminster do not recommend this (preferring hwe only) as it can cause pile damage. Just a thought - otherwise go for it and yes there's nothing to touch a nice clean quality wool carpet. Just a shame we don't see more of them.
PS: Are we absolutely sure that this is an Axminster and not an Axminster 'style'. Im presuming you have tested to check trhat it is wool. Sorry if this is a daft point but if its not and the pile is synthetic all the above advice could change!
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HWE on this type of job, i doubt than LM will get the result especially on restaurant carpet. As already said check all grippers and seams prior to cleaning.
I would use powerburst and FF rinse.
Wool carpets rarely shrink as the moisture is held in the fibre and doesnt get to the backing.
I have cleaned hundreds of this type of carpet without ever having a problem, if you are not sure about the joins or fixings or any look dodgy explain to customer and get a disclaimer filled in and signed explaining the risks.
Good luck Mark
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take some heavy duty double sided tape with you just in case.
derek
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thanks for all the advice guys, i will let you know how it goes!
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Geoff, what variance is there in the ph range of tap water and what would you use instead?
Regards
Jim
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Mate if the seams are nice and tight and secure you can HWE. I've cleaned loads of them without shrinkage. Pre spray with pre spray gold (or similar) and rinse with acidic rinse or I just love fibresafe gold. If it does not need it then bonnet, but it can be a little limited on longer pile. When rotarying either brush or bonnet don't dwell on the seam, rather run adjacent and let the overlap clean. If HWE avoid heavy wetting on the seam same again run adjacent to the seam. Make sure and use good dry strokes, wool will hang on to water the aim is to not over wet by dwelling in one area, rather keep moving and using dry strokes. If it is really dirty you can leave a dust line, so again keep the wand moving across, go back dry, then go again. Keep your water temp down, 40 - 50 max and pre vac well as it will pay dividends. TBH there is nothing better looking than fresh cleaned wooly! As a final touch you post bonnet, this will really help drying and then groom it with your rake.
Just take your time and You'll be chuffed!
Oh should also say if it has been cleaned before you may need to use acidic rinse only. Other cleaners may have used high ph chems. If it looks a little dull and sad this could be the reason. Try rinsing a nasty area and it may do the trick. To test spray some water in trigger sprayer, allow a minute or 2 dwell and gently massage the area. Use a ph test strip, anything above 7/8 or blue and it certainly needs a rinse.
My watch words on wool are 'keep it low' if it's water, ph or temp just keep it low.
Good luck
Simon
Simon,
Why would you keep the temp low?
Mark
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I reckon the hotter, the quicker it will dry. If you are really concerned about seams you can staple or tack them down and pull out later.
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jim,
as we all know the ph scale is a read on a logoritham scale because of the large range of differences.
so each number is 10 times greater than the one before , meaning the slightest differnce in readings can mean infact a great difference, ::) if you get what I mean .
and as water is based on a value of 7 , the fact that tap water varies considerably it is reccomended to use de-ironised water for a true reading. as tap water can vary wildly.
so if you are going to take a ph reading, which I dont if i,m honest then you should use tap water.
geoff.
well thats what I was taught ;)
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Simon,
Why would you keep the temp low?
Mark
High temp can change ph, and when 'I was a lad' I was told 50c max or it could cause pile distortion or colour bleed, (i admit colour bleed is unlikely these days. On another thread I asked if folk were using high pressure and heat on wool and it seems to be done successfully. Just not the way I was taught.
Simon
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High temp can cause PH change,
So is hot water higher in ph than cold water?
I would have thought they were both 7 ish.
Maybe its one that Doug can answer correctly!
Mark
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With all the spillages on a resturant carpet a ph test would prove very acidic anyway and dealing with these types of soiling you have to come out of the box as far as woolsafe is concerned ,as Mark has said powerbrurst or similar and the hotter the better.
Mark
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Not knowing your knowledge or experience level mattman, some generic advice.
Bonnet cleaning on wool carpet can lead to permanent pile damage, even more so with some detergent free chemistry which tends to be a lesser lubricant than detergents. Damage is more noticeable on plainer and lighter coloured carpets. Woolsafe do not approve of bonnet cleaning wool.
Because heat is a catalyst, it can increase the activity of your detergents. From memory, I believe that pH can change by about 0.5 on average.
If you choose to rinse/extract, especially if using a portable, then clean by the book, ie thoroughly inspect all aspects of the installation, pre-vac, pre-spray, agitate, rinse, extra dry passes, groom and perhaps turbo dry too. The "full monty" considerably reduces the wanding time, the water used and hence drying time.
My rule if thumb is that a wool pile wilton carpet may shrink but a wool pile axminster carpet will only shrink if corners are cut.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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interesting!
as a novice i thought a woven was a woven and had the same chance of shrinkage. obviously wool woven is safer as the wool retains a large amount of the water where as a PP woven wouldn't.
can someone or ken, tell me the diff between an axmin wool and a wilton wool and why the two differ in danger levels for possible shrinkage?
derek
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Derek,
Wiltons are more prone to shrinkage than Axminsters because there are more weft shots in the backing, i think anyway ???
Mark
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Marks right, grade for grade, a wilton will have about 1/3 more jute than an axminster. Ditto for wool content too.
When we're cleaning these carpets, the wool will hold a certain amount of moisture upon completion. Although we dont wet the backing when we clean, the jute, being a vegetable plant, is designed by mother nature to absorb and retain water. For want of a better description, the jute will "suck" water from the wool, leading to fibre swelling and fabric shrinkage.
Face to face wiltons such as bell twist are not traditional wiltons and look closer to axminsters at a casual glance, but are more prone to shrinkage than axminsters.
One rule of thumb for identification is that an axminster will only roll up along the carpets length.
Just practice identification on known samples.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Ken,
Am i right to believe that you can see the pattern more clearly on the reverse also, once you have done a float test to rule out belgian wilton.
Mark
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Anybody got a picture of a BW>
Never come across one yet but wouldn't know if I did.
John
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Mark
That used to be the case as most axminsters were "spool axminsters" so you could clearly see the pattern. Today, virtually all are gripper axminsters and the pattern is barely detectable on the reverse, if at all.
With traditional wiltons, the face yarn will run through the backing until it is required to "pop upto the surface" to generate a new face tuft.
Belgian Wilton patterns are usually visible on the backing.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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John,
The face fibre on a BW is polyprop so if you do a float test and the fibre floats, then lift the carpet in 1 corner and inspect the backing.
The weft shots on BW run in both directions crossing each other.
BW used to stand out like a sore thumb with bold pattern but these days they can be plain, however i believe that the newer versions are not as prone to shrinkage as the older ones.
you may have already cleaned one without even knowing, dont be scared by them, i have cleaned loads that other cleaners have run a mile from and never had any probs, check all fixings and if not sure you can get carpet tacks and tack every foot or so leaving the head proud so that the customer can pull out once dried.
Mark
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Mark
That used to be the case as most axminsters were "spool axminsters" so you could clearly see the pattern. Today, virtually all are gripper axminsters and the pattern is barely detectable on the reverse, if at all.
With traditional wiltons, the face yarn will run through the backing until it is required to "pop upto the surface" to generate a new face tuft.
Cheers Ken wasnt sure
Belgian Wilton patterns are usually visible on the backing.
Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
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Well done Ken,
You beat me to it with the Brinton, especially the belltwist.
Did a whole house last year (famous TV producer) big suite and did the lounge carpet afterwards, not until I was packing up did I realise the carpet had a certain'springiest' to it. It was drum tight on the grippers, I hadnt even looked at it thought it was a sec backed 80/20 wool nylon mix, closer look at it and realised it was a Brinton.
Quick back in with the porty and just said I wasnt happy with my work and that I allways like to leave them drier than this. Got away with it but phew, close call.
Murky
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Mark
BEware rust marks from tacks.
I'm sure you also know that recommended best practise is to tack through a furniture foil tab to make it easy to spot tacks and not miss any when uplifting them later.
Roger
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Cheers for that Mark and good idea Doc.
John