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UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 11:45:28 am

Title: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 11:45:28 am
www.centralscotland.police.uk/news/index.php?news_id=1929

Window cleaners need to be licenced
Friday, 30th January 2009

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Central Scotland Police carried out a joint operation with Falkirk Council to target unlicensed window cleaners.

Within two hours of the operation starting, on January 13, three window cleaners were detected working in the Bonnybridge area without a licence. They received a warning letter and then applied for licences which have since been granted.

Sergeant Derek Simpson, licensing officer, said: “Checking window cleaners is an important part of our business. These people are permitted access to private property, often unsupervised. It is essential that these individuals are trustworthy and are not going to abuse that privilege.

“The licensing system allows us to check the background of window cleaners and prevent anyone who might be dishonest obtaining a licence to clean windows. Over the coming weeks we will continue to carry out checks along-with Falkirk Council staff and we will take enforcement action against anyone found working unlicensed.”

Brian Douglas, Falkirk Council’s Licensing Co-ordinator, said “It is a legal requirement for window cleaners to be licensed before they can clean windows in the Falkirk area. This applies to cleaning both residential and commercial premises. We consider it is important that members of the public who allow window cleaners onto their private property should be able to do so safe in the knowledge that they are bona-fide operators who have undergone the relevant vetting and are properly insured.”

Window cleaning is just one of a number of activities which require a licence in the Falkirk Council area. Over the coming weeks both police and local authority staff will be looking to seek out those who carry out licensable activities without the proper authorisation. Spot checks will be made on those conducting various licensable activities and will not hinder legitimate licence holders in carrying out their businesses.

Those who do not hold licences but may be involved in a licensable activity are advised to make application to Falkirk Council. Advice on what activities require a licence is available from Falkirk Council Licensing Section on 01324 504950.

Members of the public are advised that they are entitled to check the licence of anyone who offers them a window cleaning service. Householders are recommended to make use of this to protect themselves from bogus workmen or unlicensed operators. Anyone who has information regarding unlicensed window cleaners can provide this information to police by phoning Central Scotland Police on 01786 456000 or anonymously to Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Edge Clean on February 04, 2009, 12:27:51 pm
www.centralscotland.police.uk/news/index.php?news_id=1929

Window cleaners need to be licenced
Friday, 30th January 2009

Send to a friend | Printable version

Central Scotland Police carried out a joint operation with Falkirk Council to target unlicensed window cleaners.

Within two hours of the operation starting, on January 13, three window cleaners were detected working in the Bonnybridge area without a licence. They received a warning letter and then applied for licences which have since been granted.

Sergeant Derek Simpson, licensing officer, said: “Checking window cleaners is an important part of our business. These people are permitted access to private property, often unsupervised. It is essential that these individuals are trustworthy and are not going to abuse that privilege.

“The licensing system allows us to check the background of window cleaners and prevent anyone who might be dishonest obtaining a licence to clean windows. Over the coming weeks we will continue to carry out checks along-with Falkirk Council staff and we will take enforcement action against anyone found working unlicensed.”

Brian Douglas, Falkirk Council’s Licensing Co-ordinator, said “It is a legal requirement for window cleaners to be licensed before they can clean windows in the Falkirk area. This applies to cleaning both residential and commercial premises. We consider it is important that members of the public who allow window cleaners onto their private property should be able to do so safe in the knowledge that they are bona-fide operators who have undergone the relevant vetting and are properly insured.”

Window cleaning is just one of a number of activities which require a licence in the Falkirk Council area. Over the coming weeks both police and local authority staff will be looking to seek out those who carry out licensable activities without the proper authorisation. Spot checks will be made on those conducting various licensable activities and will not hinder legitimate licence holders in carrying out their businesses.

Those who do not hold licences but may be involved in a licensable activity are advised to make application to Falkirk Council. Advice on what activities require a licence is available from Falkirk Council Licensing Section on 01324 504950.

Members of the public are advised that they are entitled to check the licence of anyone who offers them a window cleaning service. Householders are recommended to make use of this to protect themselves from bogus workmen or unlicensed operators. Anyone who has information regarding unlicensed window cleaners can provide this information to police by phoning Central Scotland Police on 01786 456000 or anonymously to Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111.

Doug, what happened to the 21 days or is it 28 days objection period in this case, isn't this yet another case of a council issuing a license outwith the rules of the civic government act ????
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 12:37:00 pm
That is still going through. Spoke to the Scottish Government and the SLWCN will be putting in an objection. Another law is being passed in that all civic trades in our case will have to wear our licenses at all times.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Edge Clean on February 04, 2009, 01:22:50 pm
That is still going through. Spoke to the Scottish Government and the SLWCN will be putting in an objection. Another law is being passed in that all civic trades in our case will have to wear our licenses at all times.

I think before they pass other laws into the civic government act, they need to look seriously at the ones that are already in place, amend them and implement them.

Wearing our licenses at all times is currently a condition of license, or is this yet another rule the councils have been trying to force on us illegally for the last 27 years (must be if they are now trying to get it passed into law).
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 01:39:49 pm
These changes will effect window cleaners in some way:-

Right of entry and inspection for police civilian staff
We intend to take forward the recommendation that the rights of entry and
inspection in relation to constables under the 1982 Act for specified purposes (such
as checking compliance with the terms of the licence), should be extended to include
civilian staff employed by the police under the provisions of section 9 of the Police
(Scotland) Act 1967.


Display of licences
We intend to take forward the recommendation, in the interests of public safety, to
amend the Act to make it a mandatory condition of a licence that the licence (or a
copy) be displayed on premises, vehicles (or a plate) and vessels, and where this is
not practical for the licence to be carried at all times by the day-to-day manager. In
the case of other activities (such as window cleaners) it was further recommended
that individuals should be required to carry the licence (or a copy) on their person
unless the licensing authority, under its discretionary powers, has made it a
condition of licence that an identification badge be displayed or shown on demand.
Representations, hearings and renewed applications


We intend to take forward the recommendation to make a number of amendments to
Schedules to the 1982 Act, which include, extending the time allowed for making
representations on any application for the grant or renewal of a licence from 21 days
to 28 days, increasing the period of notice which licensing authorities must give for
attendance at a hearing from 7 days to 14 days, and allow licensing authorities to
consider licence renewal applications received after the expiry date as renewals
rather than applications for a new licence for up to 28 days after the expiry of the
previous licence.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: windowwashers on February 04, 2009, 01:46:24 pm
I think all window cleaners should be licensed in the uk aswell, may just stop some starting and giving us good honest ones a bad name.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Dean Aspects on February 04, 2009, 01:51:50 pm
I find wearing the licence a pain the amount of times i have caught it with my hand pole cloth and its come off and been phoned by the police as someone has handed it in
Although Tayside council do a good one that comes in a sturdy plastic holder and you can hang it around your neck and doesnt fall to pieces after 5 minutes with a proper digital photo printed on it
maybe all of them could do it like this
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Edge Clean on February 04, 2009, 02:35:32 pm
Doug, those are not the changes we need to the system, we need changes to the laws that make it fairer for those legitimately involved in the trade. we also need for the councils and the police to be held accountable for their lack of policing the system.

Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: JSMC on February 04, 2009, 03:00:32 pm
not been stopped once by police or council wardens. i work in town centres quite a bit as well.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 03:16:15 pm
Dean,

I agree, my best license is for Fife and that is the cheapest, the worst is Perth and that is the most expensive. Bit of cardboard with my photo.

Tam,

The meetings we have with Councils these couple of months will bring out some of these issues which will hopefully benefit the licensed window cleaner. The first is with East Ayrshire Council and yours in March.

JMSC,

Think I now need to raise it at a higher level, bit sick of the words "we are under staffed".
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 05:20:03 pm
Central FM have been running adverts urging the public only to use licensed window cleaners  ;)

www.centralfm.co.uk/
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: JSMC on February 04, 2009, 05:24:56 pm
Dean,

I agree, my best license is for Fife and that is the cheapest, the worst is Perth and that is the most expensive. Bit of cardboard with my photo.

Tam,

The meetings we have with Councils these couple of months will bring out some of these issues which will hopefully benefit the licensed window cleaner. The first is with East Ayrshire Council and yours in March.

JMSC,



Think I now need to raise it at a higher level, bit sick of the words "we are under staffed".



fed up seeing loads of guys noo working for clenaing companies and i bet no licence.

you know the ones i am talking about
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: jaykie on February 04, 2009, 05:25:55 pm
D.A.Services do you work for the licensing company.

Chris
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 05:30:32 pm
Chris,

No I'm involved with the SLWCN who are liasing with Councils in promoting and enforcing the license.
I am a licensed window cleaner in 4 areas.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: jaykie on February 04, 2009, 06:04:45 pm
D.A.Services is your name Doug
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: mikethechamois on February 04, 2009, 06:13:21 pm
im with ian on this one

when are they going to extend it across the uk



Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 06:20:11 pm
D.A.Services is your name Doug

Yes Chris that's me.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: williamx on February 04, 2009, 06:23:48 pm
I think all window cleaners should be licensed in the uk aswell, may just stop some starting and giving us good honest ones a bad name.

Nope the cowboys will still be as busy as usual, the only ones who will be out of work will be the cleaners who where dishonest in their past life, they will have to give up their job and income and go and sign on, because the police will say they are un trustworthy.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Dave71 on February 04, 2009, 06:26:18 pm
Im from Perth and stopped wearing my licsence cus i was out canvessing and was pricing up job,  taking her details at door i could see her studying my licsence  then suddenly she said she had changed her mind, thought i bit weird at time couple days later im working in area doing a house couple doors down from theres, the husband comes out could you do the windows yea i said better ask wife she wasnt to sure the other day he laughs yea she thought your license looked dodgey
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: jaykie on February 04, 2009, 06:27:52 pm
D.A.Services is your name Doug

The reason i ask is because it was mentioned on another forum that you may be pushing for a license to be used in England.

I think all window cleaners should be licensed in the uk aswell, may just stop some starting and giving us good honest ones a bad name.

Nope the cowboys will still be as busy as usual, the only ones who will be out of work will be the cleaners who where dishonest in their past life, they will have to give up their job and income and go and sign on, because the police will say they are un trustworthy.

I think the only ones that wouldnt get a license will be the ones who have been done for theft, gbh etc, not likely if youve got criminal record for speeding etc.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 06:32:40 pm
Hi William

They cannot do that as it goes against the Rehabilitation Act. But I do know Councils have gone against that but the applicant probably did not know his rights. I have given advise to people who have been in this position as we all make mistakes in our life as long as they have not committed a serious crime like murder.

Did you know as you have brought up Taxi's that licensing of Taxis is optional it is not mandatory.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 06:35:12 pm
Chris,

I haven't got the time for it but we do hold discussions with members of parliament so as you know they like to gossip in the hall ways so you who knows what may happen.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: jaykie on February 04, 2009, 06:38:35 pm
how did scotland start the ball roklling for the license.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Paul Coleman on February 04, 2009, 06:39:25 pm
I think all window cleaners should be licensed in the uk aswell, may just stop some starting and giving us good honest ones a bad name.

Nope the cowboys will still be as busy as usual, the only ones who will be out of work will be the cleaners who where dishonest in their past life, they will have to give up their job and income and go and sign on, because the police will say they are un trustworthy.

People can and do change as they get older.
I have a reservation that insufficient importance could be given to this.
Many people, self included, have emerged from a self imposed nightmare to become honest, decent citizens.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Edge Clean on February 04, 2009, 06:42:15 pm
I think the only ones that wouldnt get a license will be the ones who have been done for theft, gbh etc, not likely if youve got criminal record for speeding etc.
Quote

There is one other reason that a license may not be granted, only 1 council in Scotland currently refuse licenses if you have council tax arrears, any idea if there are plans to roll this out through other council areas Doug?
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: williamx on February 04, 2009, 07:31:53 pm
Hi William

They cannot do that as it goes against the Rehabilitation Act. But I do know Councils have gone against that but the applicant probably did not know his rights.
Did you know as you have brought up Taxi's that licensing of Taxis is optional it is not mandatory.

Doug

Sergeant Derek Simpson, licensing officer, said: “Checking window cleaners is an important part of our business. These people are permitted access to private property, often unsupervised. It is essential that these individuals are trustworthy and are not going to abuse that privilege.

This Police Officer is saying that having a licence prevents a dodgy person from being a window cleaner, yet you say that under the Rehabilitation Act its also illiegal to refuse them a licence, both statements can't be right, or if you are right, what is the purpose of the licence anyway, because it can't stop the dodgy person from being a window cleaner.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 07:41:23 pm
Very good debate here when the bill was imposed:-

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1982/mar/09/civic-government-scotland-bill-hl
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 07:58:49 pm
William,

I'm no law attorney  ;D but from conversations with Police I brought this subject up. From the information I was given if the person had spent convictions and depending on the seriousness of the crime the Police could not request the committee to reject the applicant. The period I believe is 5 yrs.

However one Council that introduced the license had to grant those who could prove they were in the trade for some years. There was a legal issue that they could not reject them but do not know what it is.

The only people at present who object to licenses are the Police but anyone can object to it. They do not have the final say as there is two tiers which the applicant can put his case forward if his application has been rejected. One of which is to sit in front of the committee who have the final say and plead his case.

Yes there have been cases where someone who has committed an offense has been granted a license but this comes with conditions. The ones who you would not even have clean your windows are always refused a license.

Our issue is not to challenge this as we have no legal status but our prime objective are those that do window cleaning on the side without declaring their earnings. These people are keeping prices low which makes it very hard for a window cleaner trying to make a living. In some areas window cleaners are struggling to get £3.00 a house.

We see the license as a business tool and therefore would like to see everyone on the same scale this way we all should be able to make a decent living. This also applies to the big Nationals who are the biggest culprits who take work off the local window cleaner.

What we and licensed window cleaners want to see is prices rising and not being constantly undercut by the beer brigade. The license is one of the best business tools if run correctly and that is the SLWCN's aim.

Hope this makes sense
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: foxy on February 04, 2009, 08:38:55 pm
i'm with the shiner. the past is along way back. it's about time they brought in a licence (or a psychological test that shows how honest and trustworthy local and national politicians are; as well as other people we take on trust every day of the week). i've not always been the beat citizen but have tried to amke amends the past (best part of 10 years). sometimes the ones that have been bad are behave better than those who have always been 'good'.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: foxy on February 04, 2009, 08:40:46 pm
that should have been 'best citizen' and i won't get into it  ;)
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Paul Coleman on February 04, 2009, 09:13:14 pm
I think the only ones that wouldnt get a license will be the ones who have been done for theft, gbh etc, not likely if youve got criminal record for speeding etc.
Quote

There is one other reason that a license may not be granted, only 1 council in Scotland currently refuse licenses if you have council tax arrears, any idea if there are plans to roll this out through other council areas Doug?

Prevented from window cleaning for being in council tax arrears?  Someone please tell me this is a windup.  If it's true, then it is blatant abuse IMO.  So the punishment for being in financial difficulties is to prevent someone earning a living?  If this is so, IMO that council should be severely punished.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 04, 2009, 09:31:33 pm
Nope not a wind up as I challenged it , there is a law within the Civic Act that gives the right. However they cannot approach the Council you live in as it goes against the freedom of information act. They can request if they can contact your council.

I'm giving away too much information here  ;D. The Councils would be having puppies with all the information given to me but if you know your rights you can get anything ;)

Here is a copy of a report where this Council voted to do this:-

6 Council Tax Arrears
It has been agreed in the past that a consistent and deliberate failure to pay a
public tax may be relevant in considering the fitness of an applicant for a
licence. This is on the basis that such an attitude may imply an irresponsibility
which is not consistent with the obligation of a licensee to observe conditions
attached to a licence. Accordingly, Financial Services are notified of
applications for licences to allow them to draw appropriate cases to the
attention of the Committee as they see fit. Where there has been persistent
arrears of Council Tax or Business Rates which appears to go beyond an
inability to pay then the Committee will address that issue with such
applicants in the process of determining whether they are fit and proper
persons. This policy will not apply to general debts owed to the Council.
These would normally not be regarded as relevant to the fitness of an
applicant.

Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: foxy on February 04, 2009, 09:35:25 pm
if you read the guardian there has been a series all this week about massive uk corporations avoiding their corporation tax liabilities by creating legal entities offshore. the jackboot of the state is good when it squashes the little man; but not so brave against the big boys.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Dave71 on February 04, 2009, 10:16:55 pm
when applying for my license i had to proof that i had paid all my council tax
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: mikethechamois on February 05, 2009, 01:53:39 pm
i have always supported the idea of licencing wcs in the uk to ensure that only genuine wcs are able to clean windows

but having read this thread im not so sure

its seems the council are using it as a means to ensure that their tax is paid and the police are using it harrass people known to them

the licence should be issued on certain conditions

such as

pl insurance

registered for tax and ni

aware and practising h&s on all aspects of their business inc public safety

wether they are in arrears with their council tax or were imprisoned some time in the past shouldnt even be a consideration

the police dont want the job of checking licences as their role is crime detection and prevention, so the council want to employ civilians to check licences

wheres the funding going to come from to pay for their time............from the licence payer of course

people will still use unlicenced wcs as they will be cheaper

so the rates will still stay low but the licenced wc will have yet another cost out of their profit

to ensure that this system works the unlicenced wc and the householder who employs them need to be fined and the fines used to fund the system

this will concentrate the mind of the householder to check the licence of every wc that approaches them

the scottish windowcleaning federation needs to stand up to these councils and put them on the correct path

this licensing system should be benifiting the genuine wc business and protecting the householder from rogue traders

the police and councils interest should come second, presently they are being put first and foremost

i shall be opposing licensing in the uk
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Ian Lancaster on February 05, 2009, 03:19:51 pm
I believe that all rules and regulations are created to satisfy the necessity for regulatory bodies to prove they are doing their jobs.

The rules themselves come a very poor second.

Take the obvious example of the Working at Height fiasco.  The Health and Safety Executive was required to reduce the number of deaths/serious accidents caused by falls in the workplace, so they dreamed up a whole plethora of rules which they claimed would address the situation.

They particularly targetted the window cleaning industry.

What percentage of window cleaners adhere to the rules?  More importantly how many even know the rules exist?

How many householders do you suppose are aware that they are deemed to be the window cleaner's employer for the purposes of the rules?

WHAT IS THE POINT OF RULES THAT NOBODY KNOWS EXIST?

The point is that the regulatory body can show they have addressed the problem without having to show their remedy is relevant or effective.

IN THE EVENT OF THE INTRODUCTION OF COMPULSORY LICENSING THE SAME SITUATION WILL PREVAIL.

Councils will gleefully grab licence fees from every 'visible' window cleaner, the very people who don't need licensing because by virtue of the fact that they are so 'visible' (i.e. they register with HMR&C, have insurance, run legitimate businesses) they need to be self regulating.  These same councils will ignore the vast 'underculture' of unregistered, uninsured and untraceable 'window cleaners' amongst whose ranks the overwhelming majority of those who need to be regulated can be found.

The excuse will be 'understaffed/underfunded'.  The result will be the same.

These rules can only ever be thinly disguised revenue sources unless the recipients of the services (our customers - the general public) are made properly aware of the existence of and necessity for the rules AND THAT TO EMPLOY ILLEGALLY OPERATING WINDOW CLEANERS BECOMES AN OFFENCE ON THE PART OF THE CUSTOMER.

Only if the above circumstances were implemented, and an effective public information campaign undertaken would I consider licensing anything other than a cynical attempt by the regulatory bodies to deceive their masters (the government) into believing their remit had been properly executed and an excuse for the issuing authority (the councils) to extort yet more unjustifyable tax revenue.

Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Paul Coleman on February 05, 2009, 03:51:48 pm


6 Council Tax Arrears
It has been agreed in the past that a consistent and deliberate failure to pay a
public tax may be relevant in considering the fitness of an applicant for a
licence. This is on the basis that such an attitude may imply an irresponsibility
which is not consistent with the obligation of a licensee to observe conditions
attached to a licence. Accordingly, Financial Services are notified of
applications for licences to allow them to draw appropriate cases to the
attention of the Committee as they see fit. Where there has been persistent
arrears of Council Tax or Business Rates which appears to go beyond an
inability to pay then the Committee will address that issue with such
applicants in the process of determining whether they are fit and proper
persons. This policy will not apply to general debts owed to the Council.
These would normally not be regarded as relevant to the fitness of an
applicant.



I've never really been in favour of licensing but have previously regarded myself as perhaps being persuadable if there were certain safeguards concerning the need for paying for multiple licences if living near county borders and safeguards against people having their licences removed for being involved in minor legal problems.
However, that one paragraph above has entrenched me in opposition to any licensing scheme.  I don't know if anyone else trusts the councils to be fair minded in deciding whether someone is a "can't pay" or a "won't pay" but I don't trust those power crazed gauleiters as far as I can spit.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Paul Coleman on February 05, 2009, 03:52:36 pm
when applying for my license i had to proof that i had paid all my council tax

Disgraceful IMO.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: mikethechamois on February 05, 2009, 04:05:41 pm
thats a point i hadnt even considered,shiner, my round is a small round but its based in 3 counties
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Gordon Saunders on February 05, 2009, 04:13:55 pm
I was originally against licensces for w/cer and i have to say after reading above posts with interest i have to say i still am. Very few other trades are so why window cleaning?
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: mikethechamois on February 05, 2009, 04:19:54 pm
the building trade has cscs and cis , accountants and other proffesionals have to belong to various bodies in order to work

wc is a trade and the sooner everyone sees it that way the better
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Gordon Saunders on February 05, 2009, 06:49:09 pm
i agree window cleaning is a trade.
 What other sector in cleaning industry needs a license .
Does our domestic cleaner need a license ?   mobile car valet? carpet cleaners?  ironing services? the list goes on and on.

Many so called trades and professions only have voluntary schemes . Lots of these schemes are self regulating (banking sector , insurance services ) so what good are they anyway ( look at the banks ).

 My best mate is a general builder has been since he left school 20 yrs ago and the only qualification he has is his driving license . 20 yrs experience teaches more about a trade than a piece of paper.

 I am not against raising the image of w/c as a trade or trying to tackle some of the issues raised .

 
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Davie T on February 05, 2009, 07:40:17 pm
To DA Services.

Perhaps it would be prudent and relevant to other posts if you were to  list the individual  cost of say 6 annual w/c  lincences of randon Authorities.

To other readers it is worth noting that if a w/c works in say 3 areas he will be required to purchase 3 individual licenses
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 05, 2009, 09:58:47 pm
Right I will use myself as an example as I hold 4, I know others that hold 7.

Based on 2007 fees

Fife £37
Clacks £55
Stirling £54
Perth £80

All price for year however if you buy a 3yr one it is cheaper spread over 3yrs

I do one contract in Fife and the cost of the license is factored in the price, same as Perth I factor the license in the price. Whatever tender the license charge is shown, this way the customer understands what the license is for and therefore is willing to pay for it.

This works for me. I'm a business so all overheads are factored in prices.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: paulscotney on February 05, 2009, 10:26:29 pm
I am glad I am not Scottish, is all I can say.

 Maybe they should have licensed Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, that would have been far more sensible, or at least put frontier controls on them to make sure they stayed north of Hadrian's  Wall
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: jaykie on February 05, 2009, 10:57:27 pm
I cant understand why you need licenses in different areas, surely its just a police check to make sure custys have a legit and trustworthy person on there premises, so why cant you just have one license for the whole country.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Paul Coleman on February 05, 2009, 11:42:46 pm
I cant understand why you need licenses in different areas, surely its just a police check to make sure custys have a legit and trustworthy person on there premises, so why cant you just have one license for the whole country.

Exactly one of  the points I have been making on here for some time when this subject has arisen.  However, with that stuff about being unable to get a license if behind with council tax, as far as I'm concerned, it is totally academic now.  BTW.  I'm usually up to date with my council tax - occasionally coughing up a week or two late if cashflow is tight.
To me it's not just about using council tax as a lever.  It's the broader principle that licensing could and would be used as a means of control in other areas of life.  It smacks of  "Be a good boy and you won't lose your license to work".  Great way of controlling people from where I'm sitting.
History is littered with examples of legislation being used in a much wider scope that its original intentions.  Even in recent weeks it has happened with the government using anti terrorist legislation as a lever against Icelandic banks and/or government.  No-one really seemed to mind too much in this country as people's money was at stake but I for one find it deeply disturbing that this was done.


I will hold it there as by broadening this I could make myself appear to be a paranoid crackpot.  I'm not (but I would say that, wouldn't I?).   ;D
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Davie T on February 06, 2009, 08:15:55 am
FAO RWC

That's my opinion too.

For DA Services to pay £226 per anum is, in my opinion far too expensive and extortion

Would DA not consider coming at the problem from a slighltly different angle and push for 1 license per worker for 1 area - Scotland.?

I am not against licensing but why does a W/C have to have 1 for each area?  It does not make sense.

Those who are employing will of course have to pay that sum for every worker.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Paul Coleman on February 06, 2009, 08:35:23 am
FAO RWC

That's my opinion too.

For DA Services to pay £226 per anum is, in my opinion far too expensive and extortion

Would DA not consider coming at the problem from a slighltly different angle and push for 1 license per worker for 1 area - Scotland.?

I am not against licensing but why does a W/C have to have 1 for each area?  It does not make sense.

Those who are employing will of course have to pay that sum for every worker.

In addition to what you have written, I can see potential problems arising if someone has a chequered past.  He might be deemed "good enough" to work in one area (lets call it WorkingClassGrassRootsTown) but "not good enough" to work in the neighbouring town of (SnottyNosedUpperClassTwitsTown).
Could be some interesting permutations there.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 06, 2009, 08:45:14 am
Davie,

We have tried that angle but it is a very complicated law as the right for Councils to have individual licenses covers all within the Civic Act from pubs to window cleaners.

To acquire this change it would have to go through many changes through the Scottish Parliament which they have rejected. So unfortunately it is a no, no.

As a result of this the SLWCN has to push Councils for ALL to be licensed as it is totally unfair on licensed window cleaners.

If this were to happen which it will in the future then I am sure every window cleaner in Scotland would be happy as they would see prices rise dramatically. There also needs to be set standards with the license for example attend a HSE course.
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: JSMC on February 06, 2009, 09:13:29 am
in no way will it make prices go up because we have a licence. I personally cannot see it
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: Chameleon on February 06, 2009, 09:47:07 am
It's another "Stealth tax" by the so called, money strapped Councils

It's also a way for the big boys to get rid of competition

In both cases it's motivated by GREED, pure and simple!

I ma just a small, small, small window cleaned, only domestic houses!

I am honest, I look honest, if customers/people like me they employ my services!
(I haven't got a police record (apart  from Regatta De Blanc ;D)

The Councils need to make more revenue, so that those sitting in offices can justify there ridiculous wages >:(
An article in our local paper this week states that 14 are paid over £50,000 the list then goes up to over £112,000 for the top numpty! >:( >:( >:(

What really gets me is the likes of DA Services helping the money grabbing ...

As I have said on other forums is this...
We live in a free country, which states we are by law "Innocent until proved guilty"

I for one don't want to live in a country that uses the "BIG Brother" outlook! >:(

I AM A FREE MAN, NOT A NUMBER  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: elite mike on February 06, 2009, 09:54:30 am
we have one driving  licence and can drive where we like

 i am with chameleon on this


quote
I AM A FREE MAN, NOT A NUMBER  Grin Grin Grin Grin
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 06, 2009, 10:26:44 am

What really gets me is the likes of DA Services helping the money grabbing ...


Nope just fighting for thousands of licensed window cleaners who feel it is totally unfair that they OBEY THE LAW and others get off scott free. We are paying for a service , the Council should give us a service.

The license was not brought in by the Council but by ACPOS the Chief Police Officers as many who ruin our trade were using window cleaning for their crimes. Councils were not involved in this but were brought in later as it sat under the Civic Act.

Lets get a bit of history here, for many years window cleaners in Scotland who were FED members were shouting loud for tios to be resolved. The FED did not get anywhere so hence it was felt better to fight this within so the SLWCN was formed. We have done more than any other Civic Association and the fact they have now started things moving proves it can be done if you have the know how.

If the license was in England I'm sure you guys would be shouting, who would be fighting your corner!!!!!

You will soon be over run by new and sometimes unscrupulous people who will be attacking your livelihood, who or what organisation is going to stand up to them in England!!! Who is fighting for window cleaners rights!!!

We have the same situation here in Scotland but we have a brilliant business tool if run correctly. The Councils will run it correctly and our trade needs an organisation to push them.

Can I say we the SLWCN cannot say break the law!!!

Hope this helps.

 
Title: Re: Police take action against unlicensed window cleaners
Post by: DASERVICES on February 06, 2009, 11:25:31 am
Guys,

Locking this topic, I'm all far free speech and view everyones concerns.

From my point running the SLWCN we want to be open and not a closet association.

We provide our members with all information we receive and also the announce any details that may effect them to those who are not unlicensed which a lot I respect their concerns. But once they see action is being taken a lot who I have spoken to would pay for it in that form.

A lot of window cleaners I know are being undercut by unlegit window cleaners and some are close to going out of business. The license has to work for them and I'm sure a lot of you who have mortgages to pay would agree there needs to action taken against these people.

Hope you understand and also respect peoples views but we haveto work within the law.

Cheers

Doug