Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Londoner on November 13, 2008, 07:52:55 am
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Lost a good customer today, bit suprised really. She was always very friendly, sent my wife a picture of her new baby a year or so back etc.
Suddenly now she wants to cancel, I know there have been people canvassing in that area because other customers have told me.
This customer and her husband are both very yuppie types and these are the ones that are being affected most at the moment in my experience.
Other people are posting "recession what recession?" but here in the London suburbs its really starting to be felt. One of the things I have noticed is the number if empty shops that are appearing. A local newsagent has gone this week.
Nearly all the customers I have lost have been people that run thier own businesses or people with good jobs.
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i am getting a few need to leave it this month, but that is better than cancelling. weather is not helping either.
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I've not lost any in the past month but I did have a bad day a month ago. I think a few of those were to undercutting. It makes me laugh when people say they have a £10 minimum charge as the ones that have been undercut have been under a tenner. It's the yuppy London workers that I've lost as well.
I've seen loads of new wc's around recently as well. And I've been asked by a few to price up when they already have a wc.
It's defiantly kicking in at the London suburbia.
Simon.
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as long as how much , price per hour , earnings per day topics, appear on here,
it will make it easy for undercutters coming in to the trade,
any one can come on here , do a bit of searching, ask questions ect,
then armed with a good idea of prices , go out and undercut,
i agree some sharing of knowledge is good , but some of the braggers on here
take it to extremes.
daz
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not lost any gaining all the time 5pound 3bed semis,no wounder ;D ;D
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i have only recently started to lose a few more than normal !
( i agree the new year could be harder for many people )
however i am also picking up more new customers than normal !!
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I totally agree with this Daz, but it's always puzzled me that this forum is for window cleaners/window cleaning companies, but there is no policing to check who on here is a bona fide WC!!!
TOO MUCH UNDERCUTTING GOING ON. TOO MANY NON WINDOW CLEANERS GETTING IDEAS.
Thats why I give away very little on here, but do like the topics and the good and genuine advice given by some. Bragging is bull***t. I think you should have to prove you are infact a WC to be on here.[
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I totally agree with this Daz, but it's always puzzled me that this forum is for window cleaners/window cleaning companies, but there is no policing to check who on here is a bona fide WC!!!
There is one in Scotland - www.slwcn.org. This will list all bona fide window cleaners.
The SLWCN has just received an official letter, only licensed window cleaners will operate in the area. Target set 100%. We shall wait and see.
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I totally agree with this Daz, but it's always puzzled me that this forum is for window cleaners/window cleaning companies, but there is no policing to check who on here is a bona fide WC!!!
TOO MUCH UNDERCUTTING GOING ON. TOO MANY NON WINDOW CLEANERS GETTING IDEAS.
Thats why I give away very little on here, but do like the topics and the good and genuine advice given by some. Bragging is bull***t. I think you should have to prove you are infact a WC to be on here.[
I have a ladder and that,am I one ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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i agree with the above. people think window cleaning a easy ride that you earn load aday than they under cutter you because there used to earn £50 to 60 day so happy at earning that. they forget it rains alot and pack when they get fedup which muck the pricing up. I wish it was licensed in england it might stop the fly by nights
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Ive not lost any so far to undercutting. But if I do, then I say good ridance, as I dont want these type of clients. Your best just replace them, not think any more about them and move onwards and upwards!
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Undercutters are usually people who just want quick money and don't really care about the long term effects of what they are doing.
According to the radio yesterday the TUC estimate that jobs are going at a rate of over 1000 a day and its increasing. Thats where all the new window cleaners are coming from.
Talking to one of my customers yesterday, her husband is a plumber but does a lot of kitchens and bathrooms type work. She said his work has dropped to nothing and things were getting really sticky, so much so they were talking about maybe having to sell the house. Now he's gone to work for the council on the maintainance side, its rubbish money but its regular.
There must be loads of people in this position. Ignore the big house and the flash car they mean nothing. What is really going on behind that front door? Often you will never know.
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as long as how much , price per hour , earnings per day topics, appear on here,
it will make it easy for undercutters coming in to the trade,
any one can come on here , do a bit of searching, ask questions ect,
then armed with a good idea of prices , go out and undercut,
i agree some sharing of knowledge is good , but some of the braggers on here
take it to extremes.
daz
this is all very true
and anyone can come on here, look how many leave their profiles blank ( not that you'd have to fill it with true info anyhow ). Its also great to see pics of peoples vans etc. but all that info can lead straight into the hands of your competition and you cant always be sure who that is. This forum is very friendly and helpful in the norm so maybe I am being over paranoid, but food for thought.
Undercutters may not always know thats what they're doing and £10 per hour could seem very attractive to those previously in low paid employment. (it was to me when I started on my own )
There is no loyalty in business and customers are not always honest when asking for quotes.
Sadly this is the way things are these days, but cheaper should not always mean inferior.
How many times have you seen a post on here asking wheres the cheapest place to by resin, hose, poles etc......... ?
"money makes the world go round" unfortunately and its something we are all play a part in.
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well said!
There was a thread a while ago about how much money people on the forum make - it makes me laugh when people post £40 an hr, what does this mean? Does it mean you make £1400 a week?
I don't look at what we make in an hr or a day - its what we make in the month thats important - assume 144 work hrs per month, now assume £25 an hr = £3600 a month, I doubt many on here make as much as that, otherwise we wouldn't see so many where's the cheapest place to buy resin topics.
funny thing is most guys on here will claim to make more than £25 an hr.
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well said!
There was a thread a while ago about how much money people on the forum make - it makes me laugh when people post £40 an hr, what does this mean? Does it mean you make £1400 a week?
I don't look at what we make in an hr or a day - its what we make in the month thats important - assume 144 work hrs per month, now assume £25 an hr = £3600 a month, I doubt many on here make as much as that, otherwise we wouldn't see so many where's the cheapest place to buy resin topics.
funny thing is most guys on here will claim to make more than £25 an hr.
Yes there is a very big difference from what can be made in an individual hour and the overall turnover.
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Funny to see some of the biggest earners/boasters buying cheap heaters and diy'ing them into their vans. Others who claim to have the best paying rounds in the country were posting how to use a decorators pole not long back. Makes you wonder just what real earnings are sometimes.
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It allways makes me laugh the amount of times that "BIG EARNERS" who like to boast about it are fake.
Why would a wc who is apparently earning a small fortune drive round in a battered old car with ladders bungy strapped to a roof rack?
Why would they look like they have been dragged through a hedge backwards when they turn up to a customers house?
Why when you go around to their houses do they live like pigs?
Why do they spend more time in the pub than working.
By the way this is not specifically about any on this forum as i dont know them,this is about a few wc's in my area that pretend they have it all.
The world is full of dreamers and liars,and there are plenty on here as well.
Undercutting is a problem in this business mainly caused by easy access into it.If a licensing scheme that was legally implemented was available that may help,but it certainly would not cure the problem.
We have a couple of gangs,polish/croats/serbs...i dont know they all sound the same to me...going round at the moment trying to muscle their way into the areas.Now the majority of customers will tell them where to go but there will be a few who drop their old wc for these fly by nights,and it doesn't matter how good a round you have,if you lose any customers to undercutting in these uncertain times it will send alarm bells ringing.
I let all my customers know that these undercutters are going around,and i even tell them that they should be carefull as they may be looking to rip them off (even though it may not be true) and then the word spreads very quickly,especially amongst the old.I dont care,i have took a long time to build an income for me and my family and i will pull all the underhanded tatics that i can to not lose it.
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and why not?
undercutting when they know/don't care if someone is already doing the windows, is underhanded. we've been undercut on houses, apartment blocks, shops, factories, you name it - customer loyalty is getting scarce so why not pull out the stops to ensure you have a secure customer base.
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I do not see the problem with undercutting personally. We live in a "free country" operating a "free market" . Anyone can offer a W/C service for any price they like to whom ever they like.
If i could undercut a competitor and still make my money out of a job then i would. Like wise i would expect the reverse to be true . Thats what competition is all about .
It makes me laugh when people who have built successfully business complain when others try to do the same.
Cat amongst the pigeons
G
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I do not see the problem with undercutting personally. We live in a "free country" operating a "free market" . Anyone can offer a W/C service for any price they like to whom ever they like.
If i could undercut a competitor and still make my money out of a job then i would. Like wise i would expect the reverse to be true . Thats what competition is all about .
It makes me laugh when people who have built successfully business complain when others try to do the same.
Cat amongst the pigeons
G
Very true, i always shop about for things i want BUT i also take into account after service and things like that. Cheap as chips is NOT always the best option!
That why i offer guarantees of service, polite and professional about my business. People know when they have a good thing or not.
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i agree Chris when i go out for dinner i dont go to the cheapest place i look for value and service and customers will do the same . despite what gets posted on here customers are not ( generally) stupid.
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If your customer is happy with you as a window cleaner why would they change for a couple of quid ? plus most people really dont like turning round to someone and saying " your'e fired "
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I do not see the problem with undercutting personally. We live in a "free country" operating a "free market" . Anyone can offer a W/C service for any price they like to whom ever they like.
If i could undercut a competitor and still make my money out of a job then i would. Like wise i would expect the reverse to be true . Thats what competition is all about .
It makes me laugh when people who have built successfully business complain when others try to do the same.
Cat amongst the pigeons
yes it is a free market, trouble is a lot of new window cleaners who undercut,do not understand the true cost of running a window cleaning buisiness.
they go in, charge too low a price, many fail after a few mths because of their pricing structure.
i have been in the trade over 20 yrs, i have never under cut - never will.
my brother in law is also a window cleaner, his buisiness has been targeted by new cleaners ( a lot of whom are polish, migrant workers )
they offer 1st clean FREE , there after £ 3.00 per clean, and these are large houses,
they probably wont last long though, but the damage will be long standing,
you are obviously new to the game, when you are well established , with a good few years of trading behind you, you will see the larger picture,
i wish you success, but undercutting, does no one any favours
daz
G
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Daz.
Just for the record i have been in the w/c game for 12 yrs now and know the business as well as most so don,t patronize me . I Have lost jobs to people undercutting me in the past and expect to again in the future .
Maybe you and your brother should get a better understanding of business and you might not leave yourselves exposed to discount window cleaners .
G
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p. s
Is 681 customers well established?
G
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I'm new to w/c and thoughts of under cutting have gone through my mind but i could not live with the guilt and i'm not that kind of person and would feel cr*p if someone did it to me. There are some w/c's in my area. But do you live with the guilt and build a business or struggle with getting custies. Would other not think twice about doing it to you so do you get in there first or what?? ??? Its a no win situation if you ask me.
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Undercutting in the commercial sector is acceptable, its buisness and always has been as most organisations are mainly interested in value!!!
i don't agree with residential undercutting as there are plenty of houses but unless you get a price out of a customer its quite hard to deliberatley undercut anyway!!
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Undercutting is one of those windowcleaning myths like having a "patch" i have picked up work through being cheaper than the competition. I didn't try to undercut i canvassed the area and when they said "how much ?" i gave them my price. It was a good price for me and nearly 25% cheaper for them. Do i feel bad? Hardly, the previous cleaner was ripping them off in my opinion.
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Why are so many people annoyed about undercutting?
Its been around for years, centuries! Thats business Fact! It does not matter if its commercial or domestic.
Plus pricing structures are different for every one from one man bands to large corperate companies.
Look in the shops £££ we can save you this, builders, we can save you this much... everywhere there is price cutting... why?
Everyone can offer quality, reliability, professionalism...technology, wfp systems...better tools if they have the money to invest.. And yes Insured... everyone seems to think just because he is cheaper they are not insured. so whats left to make you different from the competition...? Price...thats all that is left.
Get over it! If a company or a one man band can do the job better or exactly the same and he is offering VALUE FOR MONEY by that I mean UNDERCUTTING you, the one who has lost the work.. well maybe you should rethink your market, Margins..and maybe your entire working infrastructure.
Ask yourself why did I lose that client?
Am I not competitive? No as I offer quality! That distinquishes me from the competition!! Well rethink your infrastructure. Maybe that is not the best selling point in the economic climate.
Why am I charging £8.00 for 6 windows? How can that company or one man band charge £6.00...he is crap...wont turn up... not reliable... how do you know that.. All it is.. is just that you are annoyed at being over priced..not competitive.
Maybe you have just spent £6000 on a WFP system and have to charge more to get a return on investment..ROI. Maybe you borrowed from the bank.. high interest rate blah blah blah... You did not research the market or did not expect to be undercut.
And I am sure, many wont sayit, but all of us have probably undercut someone..at somepoint. Especially when we start up. After the business is rolling we then increase the price... thats business
The long and short story is there will alway be a company that can do the job better and cheaper and probably safer and yes Insured for 3 times more as much as some of 3 of you put together.
If your work is excelent, and you deliver what you say.. then undercutting a client wont make them leave you... Clients wont leave you just because of price all the time.
Maybe you rushed the windows once or twice, or hurried for some unknown reason... did not wipe that last sill, left a smear... its not the undercutters fault you lost.
Its yours..
1. for being either too greedy, over priced.. or just not being competitive.
2. Your work is not as good as it once was....
3. Your over heads are to high..
4. You Just bought a flash car, house... blah blah... maybe you should have waited for that luxuary item.
Rethink your infrastructure, if you cant be competitive its your problem ... so resolve it.
I undercut lots of people and I will continue to do so. Why? Because I can still get a great return. It business...and someone out there will undercut me. So to stop it from happening I rethink my infrastructure....
Dave
Dave
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Undercutting is one of those windowcleaning myths like having a "patch" i have picked up work through being cheaper than the competition. I didn't try to undercut i canvassed the area and when they said "how much ?" i gave them my price. It was a good price for me and nearly 25% cheaper for them. Do i feel bad? Hardly, the previous cleaner was ripping them off in my opinion.
Well said!
Dave
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Good points dave .
you said exactly what would have taken me half an hour to type.
G
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What is meant by “Undercutting”?
Knowing what a competitor is charging for a particular job, and deliberately offering to carry out the same work at a lower price.
Or
Submitting a price for a job, not having knowledge of your competitors prices, and winning the work, contract, tender, or whatever you care to call it.
Just a thought....
Baldeagle
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The days of 'this is my patch' are long gone
undercutting, well there are a few ways of looking at it, those window cleaners that only want to make a quick buck dont last long i find that customers want a reliable honest good job done and are prepared to pay a fair price.
I have been undercut many times myself and no i dont like it but thats business
if you want to spend a little more you shop at marks & spencers
if you want to save a little you shop at aldi
customers will weigh things up and look for the best deal for them
yes you get undercutters but you also get over charges
at the end of the day its up to the customers
Brett
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Stan The Man........
What is the claret flag??????????
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Thanks for reply.
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The days of 'this is my patch' are long gone
maybe in the land of robin hood but not in lancashire
does everyone stay on their ow patch then?
what happens if someone comes on your patch
theres enough windows for everyone
Brett
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Why are so many people annoyed about undercutting?
Its been around for years, centuries! Thats business Fact! It does not matter if its commercial or domestic.
Plus pricing structures are different for every one from one man bands to large corperate companies.
Look in the shops £££ we can save you this, builders, we can save you this much... everywhere there is price cutting... why?
Everyone can offer quality, reliability, professionalism...technology, wfp systems...better tools if they have the money to invest.. And yes Insured... everyone seems to think just because he is cheaper they are not insured. so whats left to make you different from the competition...? Price...thats all that is left.
Get over it! If a company or a one man band can do the job better or exactly the same and he is offering VALUE FOR MONEY by that I mean UNDERCUTTING you, the one who has lost the work.. well maybe you should rethink your market, Margins..and maybe your entire working infrastructure.
Ask yourself why did I lose that client?
Am I not competitive? No as I offer quality! That distinquishes me from the competition!! Well rethink your infrastructure. Maybe that is not the best selling point in the economic climate.
Why am I charging £8.00 for 6 windows? How can that company or one man band charge £6.00...he is crap...wont turn up... not reliable... how do you know that.. All it is.. is just that you are annoyed at being over priced..not competitive.
Maybe you have just spent £6000 on a WFP system and have to charge more to get a return on investment..ROI. Maybe you borrowed from the bank.. high interest rate blah blah blah... You did not research the market or did not expect to be undercut.
And I am sure, many wont sayit, but all of us have probably undercut someone..at somepoint. Especially when we start up. After the business is rolling we then increase the price... thats business
The long and short story is there will alway be a company that can do the job better and cheaper and probably safer and yes Insured for 3 times more as much as some of 3 of you put together.
If your work is excelent, and you deliver what you say.. then undercutting a client wont make them leave you... Clients wont leave you just because of price all the time.
Maybe you rushed the windows once or twice, or hurried for some unknown reason... did not wipe that last sill, left a smear... its not the undercutters fault you lost.
Its yours..
1. for being either too greedy, over priced.. or just not being competitive.
2. Your work is not as good as it once was....
3. Your over heads are to high..
4. You Just bought a flash car, house... blah blah... maybe you should have waited for that luxuary item.
Rethink your infrastructure, if you cant be competitive its your problem ... so resolve it.
I undercut lots of people and I will continue to do so. Why? Because I can still get a great return. It business...and someone out there will undercut me. So to stop it from happening I rethink my infrastructure....
Dave
Dave
thats exactly right ::)
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most tend to stay on there own area,glut of cleaners up here,not a lot of windows to go round,nice pun eh,hence the high prices when selling leading to a defending of patches
thanks
brett
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i8ve been getting in first at the moment to ensure i keep them as customers i am saying mrs jones because times are hard would it suit you to be cleaned evry5 weeks insted of 4? that way they think i am mr nice guy but at least i get to keep em for when this blummin recesion is over hope this helps...