Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: DASERVICES on October 16, 2008, 08:07:15 pm
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Regulations
You can start most businesses right away, as there is no need for registration or licensing. Businesses needing licenses include taxis, street traders, door-to-door sales, window cleaners, childminders, driving instructors and restaurants that serve alcohol. ;D ;D ;)
www.camden.gov.uk/print/ccm/content/business/small-business/advice-and-support/what-needs-to-be-done-to-start-a-business.en?page=all
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isnt it just another tax ? ? ? ?
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isnt it just another tax ? ? ? ?
one I would welcome
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it would have stopped 'inside out' cleaning prince charles and camilla's estate if they had a licence requirement there.
Gerard :)
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Regulations
You can start most businesses right away, as there is no need for registration or licensing. Businesses needing licenses include taxis, street traders, door-to-door sales, window cleaners, childminders, driving instructors and restaurants that serve alcohol. ;D ;D ;)
www.camden.gov.uk/print/ccm/content/business/small-business/advice-and-support/what-needs-to-be-done-to-start-a-business.en?page=all
I assume that is Camden in London? That is NOT the way to go about it IMO. If licensing is to happen, it would be wrong for Camden to go it alone. Do it nation wide on one license or don't do it at all is my view. As things stand, if window cleaners honour the byelaws, people in Camden will struggle to get a W/C service. Of course, neighbouring boroughs may follow suit which would mean either no service or paying out a fortune for multiple licences.
If it has to happen, it should be co-ordinated or don't bother (IMO of course).
Although it mentions window cleaners in that link, there is not one mention of us in the pdf document on the site.
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I think its a mistake, I don't work in Camden but I do work in London and I am a London taxi driver so I have my ear pretty close to the ground most of the time.
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A great idea they should do it in all areas. Where I am there are 2 Firemen who also do part time window cleaning . They are much cheaper than me.
I am sure they declare it to the tax man
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A great idea they should do it in all areas. Where I am there are 2 Firemen who also do part time window cleaning . They are much cheaper than me.
I am sure they declare it to the tax man
I'm not convinced that licensing is a great idea anyway. Good for us legit shiners as far as pay rates go. Not so good for a shiner who commits a minor transgression and is stopped from working or a shiner who is fitted up/suffers a miscarriage of justice etc.
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i wish every city wouild intraduce a window cleaning licence
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my only concearn is i work in 5 different council run area's
does that mean i will need to be taxed 5 times again ( on top of my tax i pay now )
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i wish every city wouild intraduce a window cleaning licence
It would be better of being run nationally. Or if one council covers you, then your covered anywhere.
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Im against it as it won't make the slightest bit of differance as it won't be enforced
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i have one but it isn't really enforced
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i wish every city wouild intraduce a window cleaning licence
me to. stop the cowboys
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I'd love to see a license here in the states but there is alot of opposition. I agree if done properly (annual fee, background check, enforcement) it would eliminate the cowboys.
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It need to be enforced. But that wont be done. Its just staring to become known in Scotland, and forces are starting to enforce it. But its been going for like 10 years up there (i may be wrong i dont know im not a scottish wc) but if it takes that long to actually get enforced, why bother?
Yes just another Tax.
Its easy to get around if its a small fee, just get insured for the small time it takes to get signed up and then stop the policy... results still the same amount of cowboys.
But if it was to be enforced it would be great for the profession!
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It is now getting enforced in Scotland with a lot being caught and fined.
What you need is a strong organisation which we now have in Scotland working with local authorities. It has to be monitored on a regular basis. The key is pressurising Councils to hit targets in having xx checks, advertising, and I dare say limiting licenses.
The key agruement now being raised by larger companies is that for a taxi driver you have to have a driving license, a street trader will have to undergo by health and saftey training. A window cleaner can get a license with no training. What you may see some time in the future is licenses issued if you have undergone some training on how to use a ladder.
If things start improving you will see the industry profile in Scotlad raised to high standards which will benefit those trying to earn a decent living.
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Im against it as it won't make the slightest bit of differance as it won't be enforced
Good point if it’s not enforced it’s a complete waste.
Should be done through FWC, so window cleaners are not restricted to any particular territory other than England, Scotland, and Wales.
Easiest way to enforce it would be to put people of window cleaning for cash in hand, by having big fines when you are caught.
There also should be a bigger payment at the start, which should last years if not the lifetime of the person who is given the license then a reasonable (at cost) annual fee.
Again this would deter cowboys who might pay a small annual fee, as well as cover admin cost for the license.
You have to look at licensing as not being given permission to window clean, but to raise the image and standards of the trade, by preventing anybody to start cleaning windows other than there own windows.
All professional window cleaners will benefit others wont.
I understand what you are saying. However, such a system would have prevented me ever starting. How do you become a "professional" window cleaner? I did it by borrowing a ladder off a plumber, buying a second hand roofrack plus a few hand tools, and getting out there to knock on doors. I had been on the dole for a while without the sniff of a job and early on, i actually had to borrow a fiverer from a mate because I had the choice of buying a bit of petrol to last me a couple of days or getting a bit of food in. Because he lent me a fiver, I managed to do both.
Maybe you were doing better than me when you got started. I think to have to pay to start a business would be robbery.
There also seem to be differing agendas. Councils seem to want licenses so that they can make some extra money and to try to reduce certain types of crime. Existing window cleaners seem to want them as an act of protectionism. I see that for the first time (as far as I'm aware), there is talk of limiting numbers. Little baby steps towards giving the control freaks everything they want whilst using fear of losing work as the driving force.
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Can somebody please define " A cowboy"
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Over here a cowboy is someone that comes along charging half what everyone else is, working for cash because they aren't claiming anything to the taxman (ode to Lennon), and never improve from there. They just want a fast buck (pound). I think we all know the type.
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Can somebody please define " A cowboy"
Yeah, good question.
Have read many definitions on here before.
No pl insurance. Not required by law for domestics.
Beer money brigade. Who works just so they can pay hmrc?
Cheap prices. That rules out most north of newark.
No training. What training? There are courses out there but how relevant are they?
Just another tax in my opinion. But hey, i'm a wc insider now. Let's close the door on everyone else. I don't think so! ::)
I think the idea sucks cos it will be abused and manipulated by some faceless beaurocrat who needs paying. That's where the license money will go. That or some quango with window cleaning in its name.
It's bound to come anyway but i will resist it until i am forced to accept it. Then i will embrace it.
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Can somebody please define " A cowboy"
Yeah, good question.
Have read many definitions on here before.
No pl insurance. Not required by law for domestics.
Beer money brigade. Who works just so they can pay hmrc?
Cheap prices. That rules out most north of newark.
No training. What training? There are courses out there but how relevant are they?
Just another tax in my opinion. But hey, i'm a wc insider now. Let's close the door on everyone else. I don't think so! ::)
I think the idea sucks cos it will be abused and manipulated by some faceless beaurocrat who needs paying. That's where the license money will go. That or some quango with window cleaning in its name.
It's bound to come anyway but i will resist it until i am forced to accept it.
All of above! But to me a "cowboy" is somebody who bodges and scarpers never to be found again...this in all casual work, not just window cleaning. As you say works for cash only.
These people invariably go out of business in very quick time because word gets round...so "cowboys" although an irritant are absolutely no long-term threat to our livelyhoods. In fact they enhance our businesses because we look sooo good against them.
Licences are simply another tax which will hit us "professionals"...the cowboys will carry on regardless.
I'll actually turn w/c'ing in if I'm forced to buy a licence!!!!
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“I'll actually turn w/c'ing in if I'm forced to buy a licence!!!!”
That’s the whole point of the licence!
Nunno, believe me I'm totally legit. But what with tax returns and paying tax on account plus 8% NI i feel I'm paying enough for the priviledge of cleaning windows, which at the end of the day is a disrespected, dirty and can be a dangerous job.
I struggle to park, get parking tickets often but for all this still manage to scratch a crust and keep a smile on my face. If Wandsworth Council suddenly want me to buy a licence for £150?...stuff it. Actually I won't turn it in..I'll just go cash only, claim benefits and be a cowboy.
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Well if it is £150 transfer the cost onto your customers!
Claim the £150 expenses and save yourself a bit of tax!
It's not on the cards here in Wandsworth and £150 was a guess if it were to be introduced.
Ewan, it's not so much the £150 it's the principle. I accept that we have to pay tax...we all pay it and if we didn't where would the country be? But charging money to licence w/c'ers will just penalise the legit guys....the cowboys will be able to undercut that much more because if they don't pay tax what chance of getting a licence?
Licences are loaded against honest people.
It seems to me that in this country if you're honest hmrc and local government milk you for all it's worth...and you Ewan endorse this?
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the point is, the "cowboys" will just be a little ahead of the "non-cowboys" as they will not have to pay another "tax" thus they will be even cheaper
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i would think most customers wouldnt care less it would just be the buisnesses
tbh most of the cowboys do the cheap houses no real professional wants to touch. Proper window cleaners who are the biz and do the biz get the middle to upper market stuff. If customers are wanting cheap they can go to the cowboys ;D cos i wouldn't be doing them anyway. I want big houses behind locked gates.
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LOL, forget the cowboys think how you could sell your services better, easier or for more money because you are up to date with all the requirements.
Eventually every customer will be aware of the difference between the two sorts of window cleaner
This isn’t Rocket Science ;D ;D ;D ;D
im pretty sure not 1 of my customers would care, they want clean windows, thats about it
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heres my tuppence worth. i have a license and i wear it on my jacket/t shirt. comments i recieve are oh thats good you have id, or do you work for the council as well, then i explain that it is the law to be licensed and all w/c should have one. then the responce is well i never knew that. i think its been the law since 1982. but anyway its started to have an effect now but i rekon it will take years before the public know about it properly. all the w/c know about it but the public dont
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So why not pay (if there is ever a need) for a license. If it helps window cleaning industry even if only a little.
You need to start looking at all the benefits for you only, if there were a license.
But this is the thing: I can't see it helping the industry one iota and I certainly can't see any benefits to me whatsoever. In fact if anything it'll actually help the cowboys because they won't be lumbered with yet more bureaucracy, form filling and expense.
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I like the idea of proffessionalism and a licence would help that image , although taxi drivers have a licence does that stop the cowboys ????
a previous point raised was good " if the customers windows get cleaned they dont care"
Me i would welcome a BADGE system, which says we have insurance, risk assessment and have been police checked but would it be enforced and would customers care ????
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but would it be enforced and would customers care ????
no and no
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There is change coming which we (SLWCN) have access to Council minutes, everthing is moving under one blanket.
Watch this take hold come next year. The legit business has nothing to worry about. If I was in the FED I would be watching all Council minutes. ;) If England is the same structure in England then things like this are just a pilot run. ;)
www.met.police.uk/saferneighbourhoods/SNTnewsletter/mertonravensbury.pdf
Rogue traders
Officers from Ravensbury Safer Neighbourhoods Team (SNT)
joined forces with the London Borough of Merton Trading
Standards department to crack down on rogue traders.
Numerous builders, gardeners and window cleaners were
stopped and spoken with to clarify their company and personal
details.
A total of twenty-three traders were stopped to account for their
actions. Trading Standards issued two of the traders with
warning letters regarding the poor way they were conducting
their business.
NEVER use the trades person that knocks on your door stating
that they are working in your area and have building materials
left over so they can do driveways, building work etc cheaper
because most of the time the workmanship will be of an inferior
quality.When you have agreed what tradesperson you will be
using, always agree on the price and get this in writing.
For further information you can contact your local Trading
Standards Department on 020 8545 3018.
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HOORAY! put me down for that. I welcome any form of serious well intentioned control over cowboys whoever and where ever thay may be.
The world appears to be full of dodgy builders, moonlighting minicabs and dole cheating window cleaners. The sooner everyone comes to realise they are not just likeable rogues the better.
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Perhaps it is worth mentioning that if you work in say 3 or 4 different licensing areas, you will have to purchase 3 or 4 licenses at between (approx) £60 - £80 each.
You will also have a problem with a new employee , as from the first day of employment he if to be entirely legally employed will require to be fully licencsed. It would be a net loss of course if he was totally unsuitable after a period of a couple of weeks and he had to be dismissed ! - No refund there!
It is a fact that to physically receive a license in a w/cleaner's name can take between 6 - 9 weeks so you have another dilema too - do you buy the license for him and hope he is OK or do you check him out and employ him when unlicensed?
Perhaps DA Services, who has been promoting the cause of licensing can reassure members and me too that these problems will not arise?
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Perhaps it is worth mentioning that if you work in say 3 or 4 different licensing areas, you will have to purchase 3 or 4 licenses at between (approx) £60 - £80 each.
You will also have a problem with a new employee , as from the first day of employment he if to be entirely legally employed will require to be fully licencsed. It would be a net loss of course if he was totally unsuitable after a period of a couple of weeks and he had to be dismissed ! - No refund there!
It is a fact that to physically receive a license in a w/cleaner's name can take between 6 - 9 weeks so you have another dilema too - do you buy the license for him and hope he is OK or do you check him out and employ him when unlicensed?
Perhaps DA Services, who has been promoting the cause of licensing can reassure members and me too that these problems will not arise?
You mention one of the issues that would concern me. Even if any possible future licensing were done by county boundaries, I would be liable for 3 (perhaps even 4) licences - quite an outlay for a sole trader. I live close to the boundaries of W. Sussex, E. Sussex, and Surrey. I have also done a one off job in Central London and did a bit in Kent quite a few years ago. Actually, that would be 5 licences - though Central London woudn't re-occur.
It's a bit like having to buy a fresh driving license to go through each place you visit.
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Davie,
This is something I have now raised with the Scottish Government as it is a huge task to get Council's to work to a proceedure. The SLWCN does has some influence in getting licenses approved quickly as we have the knowledge and contacts to do so now.
What we have requested is that a Consultation be raised so all within the Industry can have their say along with the Councils. We would like all Councils to adhere to the same standards and to monitored on KPI's.
For instance a license should be turned around within 2 weeks provided there are no objections. Each Council to have a yearly and 3 yrs license. For the benefits of employers an employee license which will be at a lower price than the grant license.
If you hold one license then when applying for another Council area you get a rebate.
These are a few ideas which would help the process.
What will never be abolished is the license and the right for each Council area to charge for a license.
A consultation would be a better place for this to be discussed so if this can be raised then it would benefit us all.
The last consultation the FED and 2 window cleaners replied. The FED got involved after one of its members requested if they could. There was nothing in their replies which asked for licensing to be changed so the reason why it is still in a mess. If there was a better representation from our Industry at that time then things may be a lot better.
Failing that then we have the only option to keep on working with the Councils to have a uniformed system. Words mean nothing to them as you have to present it in reports which we have to done to get things started.
What a lot of window cleaners do not realise is that licensing has now moved out of legal into Enviroment Services which under this section Trading Standards is included. I personally feel there is a major shake up coming within the licensing section so the strong need to representation from the window cleaning industry.
Now the bad news to your question from a Senior Police Officer- "It is illegal to trade without a license, you can only trade once the license is issued" If the Police were to enforce that then the likes of Mitie etc.. would go out of business in the window cleaning trade.
I know it is not the perfect answer but we are trying to get things resolved.
Doug
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Davie,
This is something I have now raised with the Scottish Government as it is a huge task to get Council's to work to a proceedure. The SLWCN does has some influence in getting licenses approved quickly as we have the knowledge and contacts to do so now.
What we have requested is that a Consultation be raised so all within the Industry can have their say along with the Councils. We would like all Councils to adhere to the same standards and to monitored on KPI's.
For instance a license should be turned around within 2 weeks provided there are no objections. Each Council to have a yearly and 3 yrs license. For the benefits of employers an employee license which will be at a lower price than the grant license.
If you hold one license then when applying for another Council area you get a rebate.
These are a few ideas which would help the process.
What will never be abolished is the license and the right for each Council area to charge for a license.
A consultation would be a better place for this to be discussed so if this can be raised then it would benefit us all.
The last consultation the FED and 2 window cleaners replied. The FED got involved after one of its members requested if they could. There was nothing in their replies which asked for licensing to be changed so the reason why it is still in a mess. If there was a better representation from our Industry at that time then things may be a lot better.
Failing that then we have the only option to keep on working with the Councils to have a uniformed system. Words mean nothing to them as you have to present it in reports which we have to done to get things started.
What a lot of window cleaners do not realise is that licensing has now moved out of legal into Enviroment Services which under this section Trading Standards is included. I personally feel there is a major shake up coming within the licensing section so the strong need to representation from the window cleaning industry.
Now the bad news to your question from a Senior Police Officer- "It is illegal to trade without a license, you can only trade once the license is issued" If the Police were to enforce that then the likes of Mitie etc.. would go out of business in the window cleaning trade.
I know it is not the perfect answer but we are trying to get things resolved.
Doug
This is one of the more general reasons why I am not too enamoured with the idea of licensing. If the powers that be cock it up in a way that makes life more difficult for the genuine, law abiding window cleaner, it can be one hell of a job to get it put right as beurocratic wheels turn very slowly (except when it suits those powers to speed things up).
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To DA Services.
To me the whole licensing "thing" is simply a way of extracting more taxes in very difficult times.
The main reason why we will not have a single licensing authority is that by doing so, each licensing area would lose their lucrative income thereof. This is simply a "licence" to print moey for the respective areas.
A do not feel reassured by your reply to my question re what does one do when employing a new w/c who is personally unlicensed. Perhaps you would clarify :-
What would you personally do, buy a license and hope he was OK or wait until establishing he is OK and then buying a license? -Keeping in mind that you may have to buy several area licenses. To me it is not a difficult question and it answers itself, legal or not!
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Davie,
Just to clarify one thing licensing is a Police driven incentive, not Council. It is fully backed by ACPOS. That is why you find Councils do not take ownership of the license as they are loosing out of over £100k in fees, £500k in Council tax, rent beinging claimed by rogue window cleaners.
With regards to the license I can only give you legal advise in that the employee must be licensed before he works. If you are concerned if he will get a license then speak to your local licensing Police Officer who may be able to help.
The other option which I would not advise which loads do is have him work without a license but if gets caught he risks a £350 fine.
I totally agree it does not work correctly at present but I cannot tell you to break the law.
Hope you understand.
Doug