Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: windowwashers on May 22, 2008, 08:27:44 am
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I keep reading posts of some that say avoid council estates and would love to hear why this is.
I have cleaned them for a long time now and find many are great payers look after thier houses.
Now I am not going to try and change anyones minds to start cleaning on them as I think the more people that like to think badly the better for the window cleaners that clean houses and are not prejudice.
I clean some mega rich peoples houses and also people that are very low paid and many in between, at the end of the day they are people.
I my self live on a council estate it's a nice area and the cost of it would get a 5 bed detatched up north does that mean no window cleaners come round this area IMO I think not a house is a house and business is business.
I say dont tar everyone with the same brush.
Got that off my chest, please reply and add to the poll I am not going to start an agrument just interested to see what others really think about this subject.
Ian
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I avoid council estates because of the experiences I have had from cleaning on them, late payers, non payers, not today types, kids damaging my van ect ect. I prefer to go where the money is, and that dosn't tend to be on council estates!! ;)
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I do a few houses on council estates and never had any problems. £10 from a CE is as good as £10 from a private house IMO.
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i find council estates muck you about, say not today, can't afford it this month blah blah blah.
I try to advoid them like the plauge. nothing wrong with there money, its just they haven't got enough of it!! ;D
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i find council estates muck you about, say not today, can't afford it this month blah blah blah.
I try to advoid them like the plauge. nothing wrong with there money, its just they haven't got enough of it!! ;D
If I start to get mucked about then like anybody else they get dumped!
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why start on the bad foot before you start? they are to risky, not good business at all, they need to be low priced to get them in the first place, or to keep hold of them. they ain't worth the hassle. I had £200 worth of work canavssed for me that was on a council estate, i just binned them before we started. couldn't be arsed with the hassle of it all, i can see what is coming a mile off through experience
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I know what you're saying but personally I give people the benefit of the doubt.
Anyway work beckons ;D
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experience :-\ I have plenty of work and have been cleaning them many years, all IMO are well priced.
experience tells me when I need to watch out with non payers ect and this can be anywhere not just council estates, I get the odd few that dont pay and again this is any area not just council estates(should I say most are ex council).
Interesting reading this is
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salt of the earth people they dont have the ticked up bmw and fur coat without the knickers ,i think the middle people the want to bees the worse give me a compact well paying council est any day off the week our a top gun helipad self made man any day that has not forgot his routes ......
a you get payed
b the house is less likley to be on the market after only cleaning twice
c they offer you a cuppa
ive done the lot and after sixteen years in the game i prefer good compact council est over anything
bread and butter stuff i agree but the van is parked once our twice a day six guys working flat out for a full shift in the one area results
as aposed to one guy doung a 20 pound job then half hour travel to nxt job when your same guy gould do four hse an hour at say 7 in an estate if you can find them there gold dust i agree ,but take no prisoners they dont pay they dont get done and only you can build a good paying run
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very noble of you shammy, but if you want to earn good money you need to have good money people. We could all slog out 4000 council houses and have high paying rounds, but there is no need when you can have good paying work and less effort for it. you will find it easier to employ and keep hold of them if you don't run them into the ground from having to grind out so many houses in a day either ;) as for a cuppa if you earn enough you can stop at the wild bean cafe and buy your own while driven between big jobs ;D
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nothing wrong with council estates i reckon 50% of my work is on these , i never get the not today line , all are good payers ive never dumped 1 for any reason , i get good tips from these at xmas , i cant fault them ;D
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, i get good tips from these at xmas ;D
I got a £100 tip from a customer last xmas and several tips of £50!!! Guess what, they weren't council tennants!!!! ;D
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nat i have the high paying stuff but where i stay there is a good few miles between them and to do them all day would prob make me the same if not less than working an estate hey every one would love a twenty mile street both sides bungalows and you do every one ;D but like i said only you can make your biz pay ,
works well for me a good mix shops factories offices million pound houses and estates
i droped a six hundred pound estate last week becase it was getting more hassel than it was worth if the run dont work out drop it biz is biz . but i have one that brings me in two grand in a week and its srewed to the floor excellent people good [paying custies etc no travel once your there but thats just the nature of the beast
;D ;D
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nothing wrong with council estates i reckon 50% of my work is on these , i never get the not today line , all are good payers ive never dumped 1 for any reason , i get good tips from these at xmas , i cant fault them ;D
As I said I do a few and have no problems. The only thing is that I find myself tending to shave a couple of £ off what I'd charge a similar privately owned house.
Not good business sense I know but in reality I think most of us tend to price a job taking into account what we can reasonably get away with balanced with what the customer can afford.
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I dont do any. Not for any reason it just happens I have no work on council estates.
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65% of mine are council. No bad payers. No messers. Most are working people. Some retired, some ex-council. All priced at £7.50 and up.
Of the people on my round, I find that the council and ex-council are the most loyal, easy-going people. They don't look down on me like some do...
At least those who chose not to work coucil estates leave a lot of work for us that do. And when the upper market is saturated with you 'won't clean council' types and you have to lower your prices just to get the job because of all the competition, we that do clean council will be having the last laugh...
And, I don't see how doing 3 coucil houses each next door to each other is more work than a 6 bed country house with a 1/2 hour drive to get there. I will be seen conducting the clean by lots of neighbors and passers buy, possibly gaining more trade. Because people tend to know one another on council estates, word of mouth trade is also very good.
You 'not council' guys ought to try it. Easy life :)
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65% of mine are council. No bad payers. No messers. Most are working people. Some retired, some ex-council. All priced at £7.50 and up.
thats why you have no bad payers or messers because you are cheap!! you are welcome to them my friend if £7.50 is all your demanding for any house!!
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Of the people on my round, I find that the council and ex-council are the most loyal, easy-going people. They don't look down on me like some do..
People only look down on you if you let them, nobody looks down on me on my round or anywhere else because I don't allow that to happen!!! ;)
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65% of mine are council. Most are working people.
Most around here are scroungers on benefits!!!!!!! :(
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So people that live on council estates don`t work,are rough,mess you about,won`t pay etc etc,Well i live on a council estate and have done all my life(but own my house) and i am shocked :o by some of the comments from you guys,for your information my worse payers are the richer customers with the big 4/5 bed detached houses with the bmws and mercs,
THINK ON LADS :-\
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I do a couple of council estates and I must admit after getting rid of the bad apples (non payers) I have a decent few days takings from them, most of them are very nice people, always pleased to see you and always tip at christmas, more than I can say for some of the big and huge places I have on my books.
Don't tar everone with the same brush, and treat them as you would like to be treated.
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Really can't see why this post was created, we had one before that ended in one member being threatened. Why provoke more trouble?
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I do a couple of council estates and I must admit after getting rid of the bad apples (non payers) I have a decent few days takings from them, most of them are very nice people, always pleased to see you and always tip at christmas, more than I can say for some of the big and huge places I have on my books.
Don't tar everone with the same brush, and treat them as you would like to be treated.
got to agree there ,jeff
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Really can't see why this post was created, we had one before that ended in one member being threatened. Why provoke more trouble?
Because its fun!!!! ;D
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I don't think we've got any council estates left in Chepstow; I think they've all been bought up with this 'Right to buy' malarky.
But I clean a wadge of ex-council terraced houses and they're great customers, 99% of them are elderly and pay for each other's neighbors if they're not in. I really look forward to cleaning these houses; they're a nice bunch of people.
However, I used to do a housing association area where there were many rough families; dodgy low-life people; many of whom would try to get out of paying us. After a few years of cleaning in this area I must've had about 20 customers (from about 40) who were good people and good customers; and I refused to take any more on, unless my perception of them was positive.
I eventually sold them all on, and personally I rather put the effort into targetting more affluent areas than go through all that rigmarole again.
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I do a couple of council estates and I must admit after getting rid of the bad apples (non payers) I have a decent few days takings from them, most of them are very nice people, always pleased to see you and always tip at christmas, more than I can say for some of the big and huge places I have on my books.
Don't tar everone with the same brush, and treat them as you would like to be treated.
got to agree there ,jeff
I'd add that the CE custys realize that you're trying to earn a living and are reluctant to "not today" you off.
Whereas the affluent posh customers sometimes think that messing around a "mere window cleaner" is their God given right.
Example: Tuesday, turn up at customers house to do ins and out...£50er (and it's well underpriced at that!)
When I arrive she says: Oh Simon do you mind if we leave it today the baby had me up all night and I need to catch up on my sleep.
Me: Well actually I do mind, Ive driven here, parked up and put £4 in the meter.
Her: Here's the £4, really, please come back next week.
What a diabolical liberty!...and guess what?
D U M P E D !!!
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I don't think we've got any council estates left in Chepstow; I think they've all been bought up with this 'Right to buy' malarky.
But I clean a wadge of ex-council terraced houses and they're great customers, 99% of them are elderly and pay for each other's neighbors if they're not in. I really look forward to cleaning these houses; they're a nice bunch of people.
However, I used to do a housing association area where there were many rough families; dodgy low-life people; many of whom would try to get out of paying us. After a few years of cleaning in this area I must've had about 20 customers (from about 40) who were good people and good customers; and I refused to take any more on, unless my perception of them was positive.
I eventually sold them all on, and personally I rather put the effort into targetting more affluent areas than go through all that rigmarole again.
A lot of the council houses around here were sold under right to buy but are now rented back to the council. Some of my best customers are on council estates but you do see some dodgy types while you are there.
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Really can't see why this post was created, we had one before that ended in one member being threatened. Why provoke more trouble?
I started this post because I am interested in peoples opinion on this, the last post was nothing like this, and a certain person said some pretty bad stuff, the person that got threatened now that is a little sad, but maybe they had there reasons who knows.
This is not provoking trouble it is interesting reading on others thoughts on this topic.
Cheers all for replying so far.
Ian
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I think it depends on the estate, I did have a couple of really rough estates alot of years ago, where it was "I've got no money" when I knocked to get paid. "I'll collect at the end of the week" was my reply, Friday night same thing no money.
This happened about 4 months on the trot, I said "look this can't continue I need paying for the work I've done", "got no money m8 sorry nowt we can do" was their reply.
They've no money but can still afford to buy tabs ,run a car and pay for sky tv(which was just becoming popular at the time. )I just said there would be no more cleaning until I got paid, still waiting. Do 3 c/e s now all prompt payers and nice estates. I too live in an ex council property
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65% of mine are council. No bad payers. No messers. Most are working people. Some retired, some ex-council. All priced at £7.50 and up.
thats why you have no bad payers or messers because you are cheap!! you are welcome to them my friend if £7.50 is all your demanding for any house!!
3 windows + front door at front, 3 windows + back door at the back. £7.50 minimum charge. Read my post. £7.50 AND UP!
I do not negotiate on my price with them either. I tell them £7.50 (or more, dependant on the house)and they pay it.
How many 6 bed coucil houses do you know?
Each house takes about 10 to 15 mins, so 4 per hour approx, nice and easy £30 an hour...
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65% of mine are council. No bad payers. No messers. Most are working people. Some retired, some ex-council. All priced at £7.50 and up.
thats why you have no bad payers or messers because you are cheap!! you are welcome to them my friend if £7.50 is all your demanding for any house!!
3 windows + front door at front, 3 windows + back door at the back. £7.50. Read my post. £7.50 AND UP!
How many 6 bed coucil houses do you know?
Each house takes about 10 to 15 mins, so 4 per hour approx, nice and easy £30 an hour...
have to agree with that one.
Ian
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65% of mine are council. No bad payers. No messers. Most are working people. Some retired, some ex-council. All priced at £7.50 and up.
thats why you have no bad payers or messers because you are cheap!! you are welcome to them my friend if £7.50 is all your demanding for any house!!
3 windows + front door at front, 3 windows + back door at the back. £7.50. Read my post. £7.50 AND UP!
How many 6 bed coucil houses do you know?
Each house takes about 10 to 15 mins, so 4 per hour approx, nice and easy £30 an hour...
i did read your post and yes you are still cheap!!
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I've not had any bad debt problems on council estates any more than anywhere else. However, I do find that when work is more compact, customers are more prone to messing about. This may be because they assume you will be back to do their neighbours' so you will surely do their's as well. I realise that their is compact work on places other than council estates.
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when I started 4 years ago, all my work was council estates.
it took me 2 years to realise that while you can earn a living doing them, you can earn a lot more going where the money is.
remember the saying "easy come... easy go"?
we'll their easy earned cash can easy come my way for me.
the more disposable income people have, the less they mind being charged decent rates.
and you may as well get your equipment out of the van for a £30 house as for a £10 house imo.
whilst I have no objections to c/e work, I only target more afluent areas now.
each to their own though
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"I'd have you but i'm only renting." is something we must all have heard, and that's on private estates.
Where my prejudice comes from, and I don't live too far from ww, is that our towns council estates are not full of salt of the earth working class types. They house problem families, they prioritise single mothers, many ethnic groups such as somalis, polish, asylum seekers do not seem to have a pride in the places they are given.
Some of the estates may have been okay twenty years ago.
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are you saying that people on council estates dont deserve to have a window cleaner.its about time some of you stopped being greedy and offered some value for money to people who work all their lives for less than £6 an hour.i clean a lot of estates for £3 to £5 a house and after getting rid of the bad payers have a loyal customer base and make a decent living.
Same here, my cheapest job is £1.50 for 3 small windows and the dearest is£50
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i take all customers at face value.... i do some houses on council estates,however i have leartn,t from experience over the years...
i always look at the appearance of a property..if it is scruffy and the garden is a mess it speaks volumes about the owner.
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i take all customers at face value.... i do some houses on council estates,however i have leartn,t from experience over the years...
i always look at the appearance of a property..if it is scruffy and the garden is a mess it speaks volumes about the owner.
My garden is a mess @ the mo grass is 2ft high, but that's cause my leg's still in plaster and I can't stand on 1 leg to cut the grass.
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i take all customers at face value.... i do some houses on council estates,however i have leartn,t from experience over the years...
i always look at the appearance of a property..if it is scruffy and the garden is a mess it speaks volumes about the owner.
got to disagree i do 1 house where everything isa mess i dont even no why they have me , but they have more money than most people , i offten wonder why i bother with this house but i cant say no wrong about them , there was a topic started a cople of weeks ago where someone was cleaning i think gutters and asked to be payed so much on doing half the job but he got a shock when the custy was paying it all (bad appearance) i would sooner have a council estate than a stuck up nose get .
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i take all customers at face value.... i do some houses on council estates,however i have leartn,t from experience over the years...
i always look at the appearance of a property..if it is scruffy and the garden is a mess it speaks volumes about the owner.
got to disagree i do 1 house where everything isa mess i dont even no why they have me , but they have more money than most people , i offten wonder why i bother with this house but i cant say no wrong about them , there was a topic started a cople of weeks ago where someone was cleaning i think gutters and asked to be payed so much on doing half the job but he got a shock when the custy was paying it all (bad appearance) i would sooner have a council estate than a stuck up nose get .
I do 1 house where its immpossible to tell if the dirt is on the inside or the outside, they keep threatening to get me to do the inside but I can't stand the smell of cat(@least 6) 1 or 2 I can cope with
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i take all customers at face value.... i do some houses on council estates,however i have leartn,t from experience over the years...
i always look at the appearance of a property..if it is scruffy and the garden is a mess it speaks volumes about the owner.
My garden is a mess @ the mo grass is 2ft high, but that's cause my leg's still in plaster and I can't stand on 1 leg to cut the grass.
its not just about long grass, but about kirbside appearance....and most of all experience...
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;) as a rule I tend to shy away from C/E, but then I'm an inverted snob :-X
I live in my own Ex council house are estate is mostly bought and sort after. other C/E in the area have bad reps.
I have found that most find my quote too high! ::)
Having said that I did three houses today (Good C/E) 2@ £12, 1@ £10
1 Hours work all paid... no problems
I would prefer to do these than one £30 house and be moaned at by a richer person! :P
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i just dont like pikies! there are many on CE that look after there house garden kids but there are loads that dont and ask could you do mine. when you go over to do them there is dogs/cats/kids mess every where bushes over grown, and brown smoke all over the top frames. if i come across a customa thats a heavy smoker i make my excuses and go.
i hate smokers houses and its my choice whos windows i clean.
i know many will say i'm a snob but its my choice.
saying that if i come across a non CE home thats garden is in a mess and smokey frames they too get the same treatment. its got nothing to do with there back ground or income.
but it dose grind on me how some one on the rock n roll in a councle house full benifits can aford to smoke 20 a day, fill there recicle bin with stella cans, drive a kitted up rs turbo and have a window cleaner when i'm working hard to make the rising morgage payments nd cost of living.
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Isnt it best to take a person on face value ? Forget the house , after all they are paying for your service ! I clean several council houses and my customers are spot on , as in they pay me when im there , if not send the payment in the post . I started a similar post when I first came on this site , and I was saddened to see the downward slide into pure hate !
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ive recently moved fom gloucester were i had a four bed detached with double garage,very large gardens etc etc, i have now bought an ex council house in cwmbran and we love it here, at least we did untill this post made us realise that we are now lesser people than we used to be.
Oh my god i live in an ex council house, what have i done :-[
Get real, most people living in council houses own them, and very often have more money than those in large posh houses who are up to their neck in debt, just like i was, give me my ex-council house and the bank account i have now any day ;D
ps i can afford to pay the window cleaner too
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rugby,
you work there for i wasnt refering to you was i?
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I think it depends on the estate, I did have a couple of really rough estates alot of years ago, where it was "I've got no money" when I knocked to get paid. "I'll collect at the end of the week" was my reply, Friday night same thing no money.
This happened about 4 months on the trot, I said "look this can't continue I need paying for the work I've done", "got no money m8 sorry nowt we can do" was their reply.
They've no money but can still afford to buy tabs ,run a car and pay for sky tv(which was just becoming popular at the time. )I just said there would be no more cleaning until I got paid, still waiting. Do 3 c/e s now all prompt payers and nice estates. I too live in an ex council property
get their names before you take them on. For your records of course. And then you are in a position to make a claim against them when they try and skank you.
Alternatively, or in addition to this you could have accidently knocked their sky dish of centre.
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;D ;D ;D i like a bit of pasion in the replys ive been reading
we all need to flush the loo at the end of the day
do what works best for you is my advice
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I think it depends on the estate, I did have a couple of really rough estates alot of years ago, where it was "I've got no money" when I knocked to get paid. "I'll collect at the end of the week" was my reply, Friday night same thing no money.
This happened about 4 months on the trot, I said "look this can't continue I need paying for the work I've done", "got no money m8 sorry nowt we can do" was their reply.
They've no money but can still afford to buy tabs ,run a car and pay for sky tv(which was just becoming popular at the time. )I just said there would be no more cleaning until I got paid, still waiting. Do 3 c/e s now all prompt payers and nice estates. I too live in an ex council property
in addition to this you could have accidently knocked their sky dish of centre.
wish I'd thought of it @ the time, have no need now.
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There's good estates and bad estates, good roads and bad roads, good houses and bad houses.
I've got 13 red brick semi ex council houses in one road in Shirehampton, Bristol. They range from £7.50 to £11 each and add up to £122. I move the van 3 times and they take three and a half hours at a brisk pace.
They are a mixture of young couples and retired widows - no forty to fifty year olds strangely.
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Just going slightly off topic: I live and work in Wandsworth which is a pretty ethnic area. We have Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Blacks (Caribbean and African)...etc
99.99% of my customers are white English.
I suppose window cleaning must be a "British" thing.
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Just going slightly off topic: I live and work in Wandsworth which is a pretty ethnic area. We have Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Blacks (Caribbean and African)...etc
99.99% of my customers are white English.
I suppose window cleaning must be a "British" thing.
def a British thing.
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If £30 per hour for untrained, unskilled work that most people could do with a days practice is 'cheap', thank god I ain't a nurse on £14 per hour after 3 years training and a degree under my belt.
Get real! Too cheap. Sheesh.
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If £30 per hour for untrained, unskilled work that most people could do with a days practice is 'cheap', thank god I ain't a nurse on £14 per hour after 3 years training and a degree under my belt.
Get real! Too cheap. Sheesh.
I am not saying about the hourly rate, but skilled in doing this job if you want to be good at it you do need, you cant learn all you need in an hour unless you clean port holes and nothing else.
I will stop there as this is off topic, and want it to stay on topic.
Ian
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If £30 per hour for untrained, unskilled work that most people could do with a days practice is 'cheap', thank god I ain't a nurse on £14 per hour after 3 years training and a degree under my belt.
Get real! Too cheap. Sheesh.
I am not saying about the hourly rate, but skilled in doing this job if you want to be good at it you do need, you cant learn all you need in an hour unless you clean port holes and nothing else.
I will stop there as this is off topic, and want it to stay on topic.
Ian
Sorry Ian, wasn't directed at you m8. Was directed at the guy who said I am too cheap in my pricing.
Back on topic :)
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55 replies, there must be more of you that have an opinion on this, please add it
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55 replies, there must be more of you that have an opinion on this, please add it
I live in an ex council flat myself. Most of the flats in this block are rented from the council. I live in a town that probably has one of the largest concentrations of council and ex council housing outside the major cities. I go out of town for most of my work as the parking problems and no access to the backs of houses would be real killers for any window cleaner - more so for WFP operators. It's purely the parking and access though - nothing to do with the people.
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, i get good tips from these at xmas ;D
I got a £100 tip from a customer last xmas and several tips of £50!!! Guess what, they weren't council tennants!!!! ;D
Superb tipping!!!!
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One council/ex-council estate has provided the bulk of my income for 31 years with few problems. Yes, I've had a few bad payers and messers but you soon learn who they are and ditch them. I've also had and have some very loyal customers, some of which I've had for the entire thirty years.
For 15 years I also had a small round on a private estate and again had few probs. However, even there I had a few I had to get rid of for the same reasons as above.
However, there are also estates in and around where I live that have bad reputations as far as finding good payers is concerned.
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55 replies, there must be more of you that have an opinion on this, please add it
Ok then.
I don't do them, it depresses me and I make less money.
What more reason do you need? ???
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There are good and bad everywhere. That is what I think. I have met some really nice people on council estates ( I worked on one for the govt for 10 yrs) and also in expensive private houses. Also met tossers in both places.
I don't work in council estates just because there aren't any near here. If I did though I would be very wary about the security of my van, as although there are a lot of the salt of the earth types you also get the scumbags as well.
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I do some houses on an estate near the church whose parish magazine I advertise in. My customers are all fine, great in fact.
However, most of the (white) blokes who live on the estate are real social steriotypes. Chavs to put it bluntly, workshy layabouts. They all look the same, they all dress the same and the only time they seem to get motivated is at about ten to twelve when they congregate outside the Social Club waiting for it to open.
The trouble is that these estates are just a dumping ground for people the Social Services don't know what to do with.
I can think of two estates near where I grew up as a kid. I knew a lot of kids on both estates in those days. All the dads had jobs, they were respectable families. Those sort of people have gone now.
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are they the ones that go on jeremy kyle show???? ::)
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55 replies, there must be more of you that have an opinion on this, please add it
Ok then.
I don't do them, it depresses me and I make less money.
What more reason do you need? ???
A good business minded one, sry m8, it seems you lack in this field and the reason I say this is because of the replies you give, not all is doom and gloom in window cleaning depression can be treated;)
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With Squeaky on this one, don't like working on them, i can work wherever i want so that's what i do. Work with the older or retired band in areas of no intimidation - lovely. I leave the council estates for mondeo man.
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Ian, don't post a poll then critisize peoples replies because they are not the same as yours. ::) ::)
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55 replies, there must be more of you that have an opinion on this, please add it
Ok then.
I don't do them, it depresses me and I make less money.
What more reason do you need? ???
A good business minded one, sry m8, it seems you lack in this field and the reason I say this is because of the replies you give, not all is doom and gloom in window cleaning depression can be treated;)
A good business mind would be working in scabby estates? ???
Yeah ok, I'll stick to my country villages with nice people, more money, less crime, and nice scenery that makes you feel good.
You enjoy the people saying "I'll pay you monday when I get my giro", dog poo, rough people, and your wheels going missing. ;D
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I have done in the past, but i don't now.
Tend to get bigger houses, rather do one house for 25 quid than 5 for a fiver.
Paul
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I have done in the past, but i don't now.
Tend to get bigger houses, rather do one house for 25 quid than 5 for a fiver.
Paul
I prefer to work this way too but it's only because I find it pays better. Doing a larger number of smaller jobs (whether on a council estate or not) never seems to pay as well. It's not so much about the quantity of glass, it's more to do with the constant distractions of customers stopping me to pay or chat or whatever and it means I seldom get on a roll. If I'm doing a number of compact jobs, I like to be left alone to get on with them, then I'll knock at the houses as soon as I've finished the last one to do the collecting.
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Are you under the influence? ::) I just gave you an honest reply ..........matey.
Not at all, was having a bad day sry I deleted posts, I read one of the posts then saw yours and over reacted a little.
Ian
p.s It would have been nice to be under the influence of a few beers with the weekend i've just had.