Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: jewelcleaning on April 25, 2008, 11:21:32 pm
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My opinion is...
if you cant afford water-fed pole system...
dont become a window cleaner.
AND
If you're already a window cleaner, and you cant afford a WFP system...
Then you're obviously a numpty. Give up window cleaning and do something else instead.
Any window cleaner who isnt earning enough to get a pole system needs to pack in and go stack shelves in asda or something.
Its sad really that window cleaning is to some the be all and end all of life.
Some may choose to work enough to support their families, and a little to share, and choose window cleaning to do so because it pays well.
The traditional method is a very cheap way to set up, and has very low overheads.
And no, i'm not just trad.
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its simple- work to live, not live to work. When it gets to the latter its time to give up!!
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My opinion is...
if you cant afford water-fed pole system...
dont become a window cleaner.
AND
If you're already a window cleaner, and you cant afford a WFP system...
Then you're obviously a numpty. Give up window cleaning and do something else instead.
Any window cleaner who isnt earning enough to get a pole system needs to pack in and go stack shelves in asda or something.
Its sad really that window cleaning is to some the be all and end all of life.
Some may choose to work enough to support their families, and a little to share, and choose window cleaning to do so because it pays well.
The traditional method is a very cheap way to set up, and has very low overheads.
And no, i'm not just trad.
who made thq qoute in the first place anyway, just out of interest, well its so i can laugh at them really
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Here here.
;D
Lets just be glad were not decorators.
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who made thq qoute in the first place anyway, just out of interest, well its so i can laugh at them really
the illustrious tennet, i think. ;D
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yup
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We aim to please
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Here here.
;D
Lets just be glad were not decorators.
Nice paint job, lol
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there is more to life than window cleaning - and why oh why is there always a debate over wfp/trad? Some guys seem to forget trad served us well for many years, and will continue to do so for years to come. We clean shops etc trad, anything we can't reach from the ground gets done with the pole.
Trying to force wfp on people by insults is pathetic, get on with your own life and stop interfering with everyone else's life.
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i dont understand why there is so many arguments over what is better wfp or trad?
why do people let it bother them, if it works for them then thats all that matters, if people want to climb a ladder for 6-10 quid or if they'd rather spend a few quid and stay on the ground,
WHO CARES/ >:(
i really dont want to sound like a moaner but the problem i have with wfp is not the equp ment its self but its users. now i'm not saying you all do this but those of you who do know who you are and can hang your head in shame.
wfp users where i work go around pricing work telling people ''its illigle to clime ladders and any one who dose is breaking the law'' this is rubish. there are millions more people wanting a w/c than there are w/c's so y on earth do they feel the need to lie to gain work? i once met a wc in bournemouth with a nice van and one member of staff called andy who told me 'he advised the HSE as to what they should to regarding working at hights and in two years all ladders will be banned!' this made me chuccle because i was working for my dad at the time who owns a business that empoyed 7 w/c and 10 cleaners at the time he had 2x L200's 1x berlingo 1x vivaro with back seats on the road and was sitting at home on his arse watching his 52'' plasma why we all worked. this any chap made out he was the muts nuts just because he had a wfp system. my dad had one but hardly used it because his customas thought it left a rubish finish.
i'm trad my self but hopefully once ive bought my self a van i shall save to buy a trolly system to ade my business, not take over it!! i'm not going to say what i earn but i do well enough. and am more than willing to take the pepsi challange with any w/c as i'm fooking good at it so there is no reason i need to pac shelvs although there is nothing wrong with that either as i did it when i was 13 and you guessed it, i was fooking good at that too! lol. no i cant afford to just go out and buy a wfp system strate away but that because we all live diffrent lives. big morgages exspencive hobbies etc etc.
oh i later found out that this andy chap asked for domestic work back that he had given to one of his ex employees when he decided to go soley comercial but couldnt pick up enough. plum!!
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I guess the guy was bored and just wanted to get a responce! If he really thinks that way well, what a sad little man.
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Of course there's more to life than window cleaning...........
there's:
Carpet Cleaning
Pressure washing
Office Cleaning
etc
etc
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
However, I was out window cleaning all day yesterday as one of my lads had a days holiday in, it's the first time I've been out hands on for a full day for a few months and I loved every minute of it.
Two of us, started at 7am finished at 3pm, mix of pole work (some up to 60') and ladder/blade work, then at the end of it went for a well deserved pint!
What more do you want ??? :) ;D
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then at the end of it went for a well deserved pint!
Did a 9 hour shift yesterday...no stopping for lunch >:(
Driving home from the last job all I could think about was the 4 pack of Fosters in the fridge. Gets indoors and the missus says: "You've remembered we're at your mums for dinner tonight." The missus knocks off lunchtime on Fridays and always has a quick bottle of wine(or 3) with the girls so she can't do the driving...BUGGER!
Re the wfp v trad....who gives a stuff?!
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then at the end of it went for a well deserved pint!
Did a 9 hour shift yesterday...no stopping for lunch >:(
Driving home from the last job all I could think about was the 4 pack of Fosters in the fridge. Gets indoors and the missus says: "You've remembered we're at your mums for dinner tonight." The missus knocks off lunchtime on Fridays and always has a quick bottle of wine(or 3) with the girls so she can't do the driving...BUGGER!
Re the wfp v trad....who gives a stuff?!
quite right, ime off to turkey next week , stuff the work :D :D
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Mike, I dont ever post things just for a responce. Why would I care what other people think? I dont!
go around pricing work telling people ''its illigle to clime ladders and any one who dose is breaking the law'' this is rubish
Really. Because guess what I don't think it is rubbish. As far as I understand it, if it is possiblr to do a job from the ground then it HAS to be done that way.
Thats not a rule according to tennetclean, that IS the law. Or do you think window cleaners are above the law?
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Tennet, in principle I agree that if an insurance claim case went to court, working off a ladder when it could practically be done from the ground could be shown to be working against the regulations. The w/c and possibly the customer will be held liable.
Until that crunch point many window cleaners will take the risk and never get to have that point tested. In practical terms H&S, the public, the law etc. have more pressing matters to worry about than this potential infringement of the H&S code.
An articulate person can explain this (preferably in writing) to prospective customers. An inarticulate person blurts out "it's illegal to use ladders" and those continuing to use them usually respond "in kind".
Personally I "know" what H&S say and so I choose not to use a ladder where avoidable. I will also explain to prospective customers my view as to what may happen in an insurance claim case, but I don't hound ladder users either directly or by reporting them. And if a domestic customer chooses to ignore my advice and use a ladder man (happened twice in the last three years) then I don't make an issue of it.
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I understand what you're saying malc, but I'm not talking about insurance, I'm talking about the law.
Do I have the wrong end of the stick, or IS it the law that if you can do a job from the ground then it is illegal to do it from ladders? I'm pretty sure it is, but I'm no lawyer.
Because when it comes right down to it, if that IS true , then guess what ladders pretty much ARE illegal for window cleaning.
Ive never had the need to explain this to a customer, because in my experience they understand just that you need to work safe and are happy with that. But if there are blokes going round saying "window cleaning with ladders is illegal" no offense but however much you might dislike it, that is actually true. (if it can be done with wfp.)
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Your wrong TennetClean!
It does say you can use a ladder in the WAHR! read it and your find out
But I agree that most don't give a toss about it, and that it does say if you use a ladder, you have to use some sort of stabilizing device, and most dont
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I understand what you're saying malc, but I'm not talking about insurance, I'm talking about the law.
Do I have the wrong end of the stick, or IS it the law that if you can do a job from the ground then it is illegal to do it from ladders? I'm pretty sure it is, but I'm no lawyer.
Because when it comes right down to it, if that IS true , then guess what ladders pretty much ARE illegal for window cleaning.
Ive never had the need to explain this to a customer, because in my experience they understand just that you need to work safe and are happy with that. But if there are blokes going round saying "window cleaning with ladders is illegal" no offense but however much you might dislike it, that is actually true. (if it can be done with wfp.)
the wording of the 2005 WAHR does say something like you should use other means before using a ladder if available
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It does say you can use a ladder in the WAHR! read it and your find out
Does anyone have a link, I am interested to find out now just what it DOES say.
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It does say you can use a ladder in the WAHR! read it and your find out
Does anyone have a link, I am interested to find out now just what it DOES say.
www.hse.gov.uk/falls/downloads/1and2.pdf
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Cheers window washers. that looks like a powerpoint presentation though.
Is there anywhere you can actually see the laws in black and white? I'm trying to google it but I'm not sure what I'm even looking for.
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Cheers window washers. that looks like a powerpoint presentation though.
Is there anywhere you can actually see the laws in black and white? I'm trying to google it but I'm not sure what I'm even looking for.
www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05110.htm
These Regulations do not ban ladders but say they should be used only when all other safer alternatives for work at height have been ruled out. A risk assessment must show that the task is low risk and of short duration, or that there are site features that mean other equipment is not appropriate. If so, then ladders can be used.”
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thats a press release. where is the actual law? maybe thats available online
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There isnt a law because its not against the law.
??? ???
Here you are, keep digging.
(http://www.4x4accessories.co.nz/images/spade.jpg)
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Somewhere there will be a law written down on exactly what you are allowed to do and what you arent. That press release called it WAHR, thats what i want to see
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Doh!! a regulation isnt a law
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Doh!! a regulation isnt a law
Yes it is matey.
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well, you go and find it then, it'll be in here somewhere if its law
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/pahansard.htm
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Every day I see loads of vans and cars with ladders on their roofs. They're not all window cleaners. They're TV aerial fitters, roofers, painters etc. and all of their jobs could be done without the use of ladders....cherrypicker, scaffolding etc?
So of course there's always an alternative to ladders.
But it's not practical and far too costly.
TennetClean....are all these people breaking the law?
Talk sense man ;D
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Cheers, it was in there. I typed in WAHR to the box and hey presto. The work at height regulations 2005 it is called. I knew I would be proved right again.
www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20050735.htm
Now I'm gonna read it, and if I find what I'm looking for then next week i'll be mounting my "your window cleaner is illegal" campaign all over the city.
TennetClean....are all these people breaking the law?
I'll tell you in a minute, give me a chance to read it. Boy do i hope i'm right, i'm gonna report ALL the window cleaner ladder monkeys I see. Happy days.
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Here we are, the law, states the following, it DOES NOT say ladders CANNOT be used, but clarifies HOW to use them.
www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20050735.htm
SCHEDULE 6
Regulation 8(e)
REQUIREMENTS FOR LADDERS
1. Every employer shall ensure that a ladder is used for work at height only if a risk assessment under regulation 3 of the Management Regulations has demonstrated that the use of more suitable work equipment is not justified because of the low risk and -
(a) the short duration of use; or
(b) existing features on site which he cannot alter.
2. Any surface upon which a ladder rests shall be stable, firm, of sufficient strength and of suitable composition safely to support the ladder so that its rungs or steps remain horizontal, and any loading intended to be placed on it.
3. A ladder shall be so positioned as to ensure its stability during use.
4. A suspended ladder shall be attached in a secure manner and so that, with the exception of a flexible ladder, it cannot be displaced and swinging is prevented.
5. A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by -
(a) securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends;
(b) an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or
(c) any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness.
6. A ladder used for access shall be long enough to protrude sufficiently above the place of landing to which it provides access, unless other measures have been taken to ensure a firm handhold.
7. No interlocking or extension ladder shall be used unless its sections are prevented from moving relative to each other while in use.
8. A mobile ladder shall be prevented from moving before it is stepped on.
9. Where a ladder or run of ladders rises a vertical distance of 9 metres or more above its base, there shall, where reasonably practicable, be provided at suitable intervals sufficient safe landing areas or rest platforms.
10. Every ladder shall be used in such a way that -
(a) a secure handhold and secure support are always available to the user; and
(b) the user can maintain a safe handhold when carrying a load unless, in the case of a step ladder, the maintenance of a handhold is not practicable when a load is carried, and a risk assessment under regulation 3 of the Management Regulations has demonstrated that the use of a stepladder is justified because of -
(i) the low risk; and
(ii) the short duration of use.
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Its not my fault if they are breaking the law matey. Tut tut shame on them, have they no honour?
Heh heh, boy do you NOT want to be a ladder man near me soon. Now hush let me read the thing so I can plan my militancy.
I'm not joking either you know!
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Cheers, it was in there. I typed in WAHR to the box and hey presto. The work at height regulations 2005 it is called. I knew I would be proved right again.
www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20050735.htm
Now I'm gonna read it, and if I find what I'm looking for then next week i'll be mounting my "your window cleaner is illegal" campaign all over the city.
TennetClean....are all these people breaking the law?
I'll tell you in a minute, give me a chance to read it. Boy do i hope i'm right, i'm gonna report ALL the window cleaner ladder monkeys I see. Happy days.
tw@t springs to mind ;D
Out of interest why do you hope you're right and why do you want to report "ALL the window cleaner ladder monkeys I see" ???
I mean what's it to you if people want to use ladders rather than wfp?
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Out of interest why do you hope you're right and why do you want to report "ALL the window cleaner ladder monkeys I see" Huh
I mean what's it to you if people want to use ladders rather than wfp?
Oh its simply my civic duty as a responsible citizen to report law breakers. Heh heh.
I'm still reading, this is one meaty doc, lol I'm worried i may fall asleep before i find what i'm looking for...
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Out of interest why do you hope you're right and why do you want to report "ALL the window cleaner ladder monkeys I see" Huh
I mean what's it to you if people want to use ladders rather than wfp?
Oh its simply my civic duty as a responsible citizen to report law breakers. Heh heh.
I'm still reading, this is one meaty doc, lol I'm worried i may fall asleep before i find what i'm looking for...
I can help you here Mr Civic man...save your time...there simply ain't no law banning ladders.
Just to prove my point: Do you think B & Q (and 100s of other retailers) would be allowed to sell an item that cannot be used legally in UK law?
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Out of interest why do you hope you're right and why do you want to report "ALL the window cleaner ladder monkeys I see" Huh
I mean what's it to you if people want to use ladders rather than wfp?
Oh its simply my civic duty as a responsible citizen to report law breakers. Heh heh.
I'm still reading, this is one meaty doc, lol I'm worried i may fall asleep before i find what i'm looking for...
why dont you give up window cleaning ,and become a constable :D :D
and catch some real law breakers
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Right right right. LOL Boy I think I have got them.
"(2) Every employer shall ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely otherwise than at height."
ANd before you say 'i'm not an employer blah blah'
"(3) The requirements imposed by these Regulations on an employer shall also apply to -
(a) a self-employed person"
And as if that were not enough, as someone already pointed out, even if you are a ladder monkey you have to have someone foot it or use a ladder clamp, and nobody does that so thats 2 counts of GUILTY m'lord.
Oh wow I had no idea that the law was on the side of WFP people so much. No wonder people say that ladders are illegal for window cleaning. LOL
I'm gonna volunteer to show any H&S officer just how "reasonable" it is to use a WFP lol. This is gonna be fun.
I'm also gonna compose a standard letter and everytime I see a ladder monkey window cleaner I'm gonna snap them with my camera phone and send the pic with the letter, and I'll make sure the van is in the pic too.
If you live ANYWHERE near coventry and you are a ladder window cleaner, my advice is, leave town I AM COMING TO FIND YOU.
Now just have to find out who to send it to.
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Are you on something?
Nowhere in what you've just quoted does it say "Ladders cannot be used"
Please read what you've just written.
"....where it is reasonably practicable to carry out work safely otherwise than at height."
"....reasonably practicable...." means if you can avoid ladders then do so" (common sense).
This is a Saturday afternoon wind-up...yes?
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I'm not on something,
It doesnt say ladders cannot be used, but it does say they cant be used if theres an alternative.
"....where it is reasonably practicable to carry out work safely otherwise than at height."
waterfed pole is a reasonably practical alternative is it not?
Otherwise I (and hundreds like me) wouldnt be able to use it. Therefore if you are using ladders when you could have used WFP, you are a law breaker. And I will be a concerned citizen and report anybody I see.
And no this is not a wind up, I am not joking, I WILL report people. Something tells me there is going to be a sudden shortage of window cleaners here, LOL
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I must be missing something here. Please tell me where the word "ladders" is mentioned.
I seriously think you're misinterpreting the wahr for your own nefarious purposes.
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When they ban wfp due to water shortages (and it will happen somewhere at some stage) will it be ok for me to use my ladder or should I use a pogo stick and bounce up to the first floor windows? Does health and safety allow this?
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I must be missing something here. Please tell me where the word "ladders" is mentioned.
Work at height. Pretty obvious to me?
I seriously think you're misinterpreting the wahr for your own nefarious purposes.
NEFERIOUS - cool word! I'm gonna use that this week
there's no interpreting matey, it seems pretty clear cut to me. What it says is you cant work at height if theres a viable alternative. It doesnt matter if you dont agree, that is what it says LOL, It's the law, and the law is an ass. At least it will be an ass to any ladder monkeys I see.
How many windows do you do that couldnt be done with WFP and would need ladders. Almost none. I would never have thought it, but actually for all intents and purposes, this really is a ladder ban for window cleaners. Looks like the hs bods wont actually come out say that because it will cause outcry, but nevertheless thats what it is. No wonder there was such a stink about it.
Let the reporting begin.
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guys
i think we have slightly gone off topic,
get out and have a beer :D :D
mike
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guys
i think we have slightly gone off topic,
get out and have a beer :D :D
mike
I will be later. Is it ok if I have more than one?
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This could be big. I wonder how many WFPers know that their local competition are working illegally. What we need is a nationwide crack down by WFPers, all in the name of civic duty of course. ;D
If you are a ladder monkey, then be afraid. The long arm of the law is coming!
HA ha ha
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I'm shaking at the knees TC ;D
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Understandable if your still using ladders.
"You can't outrun the long arm of the law..."
and dont forget...
"I fought the law and... THE LAW WON"
Ha ha ha, this is gonna be so funny. Watch these monkeys get slapped with fines for breaking the law.
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This could be big. I wonder how many WFPers know that their local competition are working illegally. What we need is a nationwide crack down by WFPers, all in the name of civic duty of course. ;D
If you are a ladder monkey, then be afraid. The long arm of the law is coming!
HA ha ha
hey sod the drug dealers, burglers robbers,pedos, muggers,fly tippers, terrorists, killers etc??
lets go and ni ck a lot of hard working tax paying window cleaners
sounds about right, dont it :D
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This could be big. I wonder how many WFPers know that their local competition are working illegally. What we need is a nationwide crack down by WFPers, all in the name of civic duty of course. ;D
If you are a ladder monkey, then be afraid. The long arm of the law is coming!
HA ha ha
We all know the law are far too busy catching speeding motorists and cyclists who ride on the pavement. So it should be fine to carry on with the ladders for quite sometime.
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...and by the way, if you're really being serious (and I have my doubts....I still believe you're a wind-up merchant) I think that before you embark on a one man crusade to save "ladder monkeys" from themselves (and of course try and snatch their biz in the process) you'd be wise to have a chat with the HSE to check out the facts and their view on ladders and the use of!....after all I'd hate you to make a fool of yourself and make lots of enemies amongst your fellow shiners!
Dunno how things work in Coventry, but here down South we don't grass fellow shiners up....assuming they're legit of course!
Watch your back my friend!
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...and by the way, if you're really being serious (and I have my doubts....I still believe you're a wind-up merchant) I think that before you embark on a one man crusade to save "ladder monkeys" from themselves (and of course try and snatch their biz in the process) you'd be wise to have a chat with the HSE to check out the facts and their view on ladders and the use of!....after all I'd hate you to make a fool of yourself and make lots of enemies amongst your fellow shiners!
Dunno how things work in Coventry, but here down South we don't grass fellow shiners up....assuming they're legit of course!
Watch your back my friend!
HAVE TO AGREE WITH THAT ;)
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...and by the way, if you're really being serious (and I have my doubts....I still believe you're a wind-up merchant) I think that before you embark on a one man crusade to save "ladder monkeys" from themselves (and of course try and snatch their biz in the process) you'd be wise to have a chat with the HSE to check out the facts and their view on ladders and the use of!....after all I'd hate you to make a fool of yourself and make lots of enemies amongst your fellow shiners!
Dunno how things work in Coventry, but here down South we don't grass fellow shiners up....assuming they're legit of course!
Watch your back my friend!
its got to be a wind up, ??
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...and by the way, if you're really being serious (and I have my doubts....I still believe you're a wind-up merchant)
This aint a wind up mate, and I will do the reporting anonymously. Why should I tolerate competition from window cleaners who are breaking the law?
The answer is, I wont.
As for the HSE, the law is there in black and white, theres no "view" about it.
And while i think its noble of you to "not grass fellow shiners up", business is business. I'll especially be doing it where I see guys doing commercial contracts. Then, what a suprise, the week after they lose a window cleaner because he got done for helf and safety, a new window cleaner who is safe wants to quote for the job.
I'm glad whoever it was started this thread now, i'm quite excited about this.
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tc
but they all know it would be you :D :D
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TennetClean you moron it is not against the law to use a ladder for window cleaning, so go back to the hole you crawled out of you idiot
Don't worry markberesford your safe for the moment as you are not in coventry. (Unless a local boy joins my crusade)
Also, you dont need to get all hot under the collar with me, I didnt write the law. It says what it says, it dont matter if you dont like it.
tc
but they all know it would be you
Only if they use this forum, which is highly unlikely.
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yeh
theres more to life than window cleaning,,??not for tc it seems :D :D
ime of to turkey for a week all inc,going to do some snorkling, diving eating and drinking
i will think of you lot,:D
have a good week lads
mike
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yeh
theres more to life than window cleaning,,??not for tc it seems :D :D
ime of to turkey for a week all inc,going to do some snorkling, diving eating and drinking
i will think of you lot,:D
have a good week lads
mike
Have a Good time Mike, I dont get jealous of others ;) Have a wonderful time I like seeing others do well, it makes me work a little harder
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...and by the way, if you're really being serious (and I have my doubts....I still believe you're a wind-up merchant)
This aint a wind up mate, and I will do the reporting anonymously. Why should I tolerate competition from window cleaners who are breaking the law?
The answer is, I wont.
As for the HSE, the law is there in black and white, theres no "view" about it.
And while i think its noble of you to "not grass fellow shiners up", business is business. I'll especially be doing it where I see guys doing commercial contracts. Then, what a suprise, the week after they lose a window cleaner because he got done for helf and safety, a new window cleaner who is safe wants to quote for the job.
I'm glad whoever it was started this thread now, i'm quite excited about this.
It's an irrelevance, because you're interpreting the wahr to suit your own designs and what you interpret isn't necessarily what HSE mean.
Trust me...before you make a buffoon of yourself and enemies take 15 minutes to speak to your local HSE officer to see what's what.
Also there's better ways to get more biz than trying to see off the oppo via underhand grassing.
If you're any good and competitive then biz tends to flow your way naturally....or are you crap at your job and struggling to get new biz?
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It's an irrelevance, because you're interpreting the wahr to suit your own designs and what you interpret isn't necessarily what HSE mean.
Lol, i think that you wish it was an interpretation, but the way i see it it is black and white. BUT i hear what your saying and i'm gonna email my local hse office and ask the question.
Also there's better ways to get more biz than trying to see off the oppo via underhand grassing.
theres nothing underhand about wanting a level playing field. I went WFP purely for reasons of speed, i didnt know about this law then, but what about boys who have changed because of this law? Is it fair that they have spent money to obey the law and their competitors havent and nothing gets done?
No, no, no. Its high time ladder boys felt the weight of the law. All i'm doing is helping really LOL. I feel it is my moral duty to take their contracts from them.
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It's an irrelevance, because you're interpreting the wahr to suit your own designs and what you interpret isn't necessarily what HSE mean.
Lol, i think that you wish it was an interpretation, but the way i see it it is black and white. BUT i hear what your saying and i'm gonna email my local hse office and ask the question.
Also there's better ways to get more biz than trying to see off the oppo via underhand grassing.
theres nothing underhand about wanting a level playing field. I went WFP purely for reasons of speed, i didnt know about this law then, but what about boys who have changed because of this law? Is it fair that they have spent money to obey the law and their competitors havent and nothing gets done?
No, no, no. Its high time ladder boys felt the weight of the law. All i'm doing is helping really LOL. I feel it is my moral duty to take their contracts from them.
Having fun again I see Tennet ;)
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...and by the way, if you're really being serious (and I have my doubts....I still believe you're a wind-up merchant)
This aint a wind up mate, and I will do the reporting anonymously. Why should I tolerate competition from window cleaners who are breaking the law?
The answer is, I wont.
As for the HSE, the law is there in black and white, theres no "view" about it.
And while i think its noble of you to "not grass fellow shiners up", business is business. I'll especially be doing it where I see guys doing commercial contracts. Then, what a suprise, the week after they lose a window cleaner because he got done for helf and safety, a new window cleaner who is safe wants to quote for the job.
I'm glad whoever it was started this thread now, i'm quite excited about this.
It's an irrelevance, because you're interpreting the wahr to suit your own designs and what you interpret isn't necessarily what HSE mean.
Trust me...before you make a buffoon of yourself and enemies take 15 minutes to speak to your local HSE officer to see what's what.
Also there's better ways to get more biz than trying to see off the oppo via underhand grassing.
If you're any good and competitive then biz tends to flow your way naturally....or are you crap at your job and struggling to get new biz?
your right
ive done the HSE course, it was a while ago, but i stay in touch with a few guys who were on the course
i also live next door to our local councils HSE guy, i clean his windows
the WaHD is very easy to interpret how you like, to suit your own means, hey most of the WFP guys turn it so ladders are banned, where are a painter will go the other way and say they are not, afterall a tower scaffold will get him up to paint a window ( its not cost effective though, but the WaHD doesnt care about cost effective )
you can still use ladders, you ideally need to do a risk assesment everytime you climb, but we all know the risks of ladder
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Try this stunt down here and there's plenty of boys who'll see it as their moral duty to wrap your hose around your neck and garrote you with it.
Sorry mate.... Not only are you wrong I suspect that because you're inept at wfp your attempt at "leveling the playing field" is so that the "ladder monkeys" better results won't then be an issue. I note from your lack of quoting the paragraph in my last post re: "crap at your job"...I also suspect this is a bit near the mark for comfort...yes?
As I say: Watch your back...you're treading a thin line when threatening peoples means of paying for a roof over their heads and putting food on the table for their kids!
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Try this stunt down here and there's plenty of boys who'll see it as their moral duty to wrap your hose around your neck and garrote you with it.
Sorry mate.... Not only are you wrong I suspect that because you're inept at wfp your attempt at "leveling the playing field" is so that the "ladder monkeys" better results won't then be an issue. I note from your lack of quoting the paragraph in my last post re: "crap at your job"...I also suspect this is a bit near the mark for comfort...yes?
As I say: Watch your back...you're treading a thin line when threatening peoples means of paying for a roof over their heads and putting food on the table for their kids!
i have learnt in the last few weeks that tuppence clean likes to makes posts for attention, not sure why, i would hazzard a guess that he gets no attention in real life, so comes on here for it
its ok to sometimes to reply to his posts, afterall, if he needs the attention, then it good of the kind folks of CIU to help with his attention needs, but lets try and moderate it, otherwise every single post of his will be in the same vain ( i know most are, but he does on the odd occasion make a post of some sence, its 3 so far i belive )
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Matt I dont care if other people disagree with me, you should know that by now. I never started this thread!
your right
ive done the HSE course, it was a while ago, but i stay in touch with a few guys who were on the course
i also live next door to our local councils HSE guy, i clean his windows
A wise sage as far as Health and safety goes then... BUT...
where are a painter will go the other way and say they are not, afterall a tower scaffold will get him up to paint a window ( its not cost effective though, but the WaHD doesnt care about cost effective )
Using a scaffold tower is still 'work at height' matey.
According to what that thing says, if its reasonable you HAVE TO avoid work at height if possible. Using a scaffold tower is NOT avoiding work at height, it is just a different type of work at height.
WFP is not just another type of work at height, it IS avoiding it alltogether.
Someone else said what about roofers and painters etc who use ladders. Well good for them, they dont have a reasonable alternative. Window cleaners do, its that simple really.
I am open minded about this, but I have yet to see anyone come forward with a convincing argument as to why ladders are legal for window cleaning that could be done with WFP?
All everyone keeps saying is "your wrong, your wrong". I am not wrong. Explain how you can use work at height when it would have possible to use WFP and still be legal? You cant.
Building owners may not know that. It is my duty to make sure they do, and when they discover their own window cleaner is illegal it is also my duty to take the contract. Life is harsh aint it, especially when you break the law.
As I say: Watch your back...you're treading a thin line when threatening peoples means of paying for a roof over their heads and putting food on the table for their kids!
Then they should work legally, simple. As I said before what started all this - if you cant afford WFP system, dont become a window cleaner.
You keep saying I'm wrong, but I think its pretty obvious I am not wrong. You may not like it, but thats life. If I am wrong, then please explain how I am wrong? The law is there in black and white, i just read it for myself and so can you.
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What I would consider reasonably practicable alternative is using a telescopic pole with a squeegee/applicator on the end.
Those regulations says avoid work at height where possible, it does not say avoid wasting water where possible. Both would be ok under them as far as i can see
No, I could argue that water fed pole isn't a reasonably practicable alternative. I could turn round and say it's a waste of valuable re sources - water. Who is going to argue with that? In a court of law you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
Thats a terrible argument foxman, because what court in their right mind is going to put saving water ahead of a persons safety. They arent, because its not reasonable, and because the law says avoid work at height if possible
(a) the short duration of use;
Now see what the HSE regard as the short duration of time, you will soon realise that window cleaning is not regarded as working off a ladder. That alone throws everything you've said in the bin (unllike you i am a qualified health and safety officer)
Interesting, and I have to admit that this point is about the closest I have come to hearing something of any merit. Until you actually read the thing. This part is talking about using a ladder, I am talking about work at height.
Avoid work at height if possible it is saying, then this bit you are on about is saying you can only use a ladder for short duration tasks (as opposed to other types of work at height ie scaffold). Meaning, only after you have proved it HAS to be done at height.
Where's your new Ionics system now!!
I dont have one YET, but i will be getting one soon i hope
For a qualified health and safety officer, I would have thought you would know this inside out. Maybe not. Perhaps you should ask craig21t or dd, they might have a better grasp.
By the way, is your company connected with a Crystal Clear in south wales?
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so let me get this right, you are saying that window cleaning from ladders is NOT "work at height?"
LOL
Where on earth do you get that from? Show me where the definition is.
Also using WFP in a drought is not against the law, or can you show me somewhere that says it is?
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No, if you read it you will see that window cleaning is not classed as 'working off a ladder' (The short duration of use exception applies in this case) that's the whole point. You're technically not working at height, it's being used for access.
Assuming Foxman is right, and with him being a HSE officer I suspect he is, I guess that puts paid to your plans for global (sorry Coventry) window cleaning dominance!
Oh well...back to the drawing board for you eh!
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I also tell customers that if there is a safer way to clean windows these days it has to be used i thought that was now the law regarding ladders,why use ladders anyway if you don`t have to those days are gone forever for me it`s a mugs game climbing ladders alday when you don`t have to.
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I also tell customers that if there is a safer way to clean windows these days it has to be used i thought that was now the law regarding ladders,why use ladders anyway if you don`t have to those days are gone forever for me it`s a mugs game climbing ladders alday when you don`t have to.
NWH,
You really should not refer to half the people on this forum as mugs! ::)
Who the hell do you think you are!!
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I also tell customers that if there is a safer way to clean windows these days it has to be used i thought that was now the law regarding ladders,why use ladders anyway if you don`t have to those days are gone forever for me it`s a mugs game climbing ladders alday when you don`t have to.
NWH,
You really should not refer to half the people on this forum as mugs! ::)
Who the hell do you think you are!!
I`m not calling anyone a mug what i meant to say was why climb ladders alday long,these days you don`t have to do it.But if you want to work 2-3 times harder than a WFP window cleaner just so that you can say your a die hard window cleaner then looking at it like that you could be thought of as a mug.The job is much easier these days with the technology there is now,as the saying goes work smarter not harder.
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Assuming Foxman is right, and with him being a HSE officer I suspect he is, I guess that puts paid to your plans for global (sorry Coventry) window cleaning dominance!
Oh well...back to the drawing board for you eh!
Well maybe your right, but something tells me that your "Health and Safety officer" credibility is seriously stretched if it transpires that you have actually be done by the HSE yourself for 5 different breaches!...
click here to see (http://www.hse.gov.uk/notices/breach/breach_list.asp?ST=B&SN=F&EO=%3D&SF=RID&SV=1174837)
Perhaps you arent really the best person to be lecturing us about health and safety foxman? Maybe get craig21t or dd instead.
I think what he actually means is that he is the health and safety "officer" for crystal clear ie the one in charge of it for HIS company, which is no big shakes.
Also, foxman, for the record I think you are wrong in saying that window cleaning is not "work at height". But I'll apologise if I am wrong (But i'm not so I wont be apologising).
So, my campaign is still on then, "Your ladder monkey window cleaner is illegal" is my new catchphrase, and I WILL report any I see. I can see some nice juicy contracts coming my way this year. ANyone want to join my campaign? Maybe I'll have stickers made up.
All in the name of civic duty you understand
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for the attention of tennet
you are an ass
duration is a key word
as is straightforward
dont get the hump if this link dont work but
www.hse.gov.uk/myth/april.htm
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for the attention of tennet
you are an ass
The law is an ass, I am its humble servant.
As for stepladders, I dont use em for window cleaning, and never have. But I have seen a few shopkeeper using em to clean with.
Me? Get the hump? No!
www.hse.gov.uk/falls/window.htm
Look at the VERY FIRST option on that table.
If the HSE were so happy about us using ladders for window cleaning because of its "short duration", why would the FIRST CONSIDERATION be
"Can you do the work from the ground (e.g. waterfed pole system)?" as on that link.
Foxman has confused the issue here a bit with this short duration nonsense. He should go back to operating mewps illiegally. As I understand it is works like this:
1 ONLY if it is not possible for you to work from the ground can you work at height. For window cleaners, thats the end of the story. If it is possible to use WFP then it HAS to be used, or you will be reported by me.
2 If the ONLY option is to work at height, you can use ladders ONLY for short duration and straightforward tasks. Otherwise its scaffold or cherry picker etc.
so the short duration business doesnt even apply matey, unless the window cannot be done with WFP for some reason (like a flat roof etc).
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its simple- work to live, not live to work. When it gets to the latter its time to give up!!
It's not as simple as that. If you don't enjoy your work, where's your life? In front of the tv??
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you understand it wrong then
short duration work is not con sidered high risk
most domestic work falls into that category
the clock starts every time you move the ladder
use a recognised anti slip device (rojak,laddermatrix)and you have covered yourself
hse HAVE NOT banned ladders
you are an antagonistic twat
and ((best of all ;D))
YOU ARE WRONG
regulations can become laws
regulations are NOT already laws
all your answers are pedantic
you remain an unmitigated prick
(sorry mods)
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Bit harsh? Oh well maybe not.
Regualtions ARE laws my friend. This I know to be a fact.
Avoid work at height if possible. It is possible, so "duration" doesnt come into it. The only time "Duration" is relevant is if work at height cant be avoided.
Still not heard ANY argument that makes any sense on this one. My campaign is going ahead. Might even make the local paper.
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you understand it wrong then
short duration work is not con sidered high risk
most domestic work falls into that category
the clock starts every time you move the ladder
use a recognised anti slip device (rojak,laddermatrix)and you have covered yourself
hse HAVE NOT banned ladders
you are an antagonistic fool
and ((best of all ;D))
YOU ARE WRONG
regulations can become laws
regulations are NOT already laws
all your answers are pedantic
you remain an unmitigated prick
(sorry mods)
;D
Yeah, he's a wfp cuddler like bushpig.
He uses it to cook his dinner, please his wife, go fishing..etc...
It's a magic wand to, and Paul Daniels is out of a job. ::)
Ignore him, ladders are not illegal. ;D
I've worked in front of coppers and heath and safety people.
They smile and say hello.
Nothing wrong, don't worry. ;)
I don't use them because I can't be arsed to climb up and down them any more.
Not because the wfp hype brigade tell me I'm breaking the law and I'll get my botty smacked.
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Its not my fault if they are breaking the law matey. Tut tut shame on them, have they no honour?
Heh heh, boy do you NOT want to be a ladder man near me soon. Now hush let me read the thing so I can plan my militancy.
I'm not joking either you know!
Understandable if your still using ladders.
"You can't outrun the long arm of the law..."
and dont forget...
"I fought the law and... THE LAW WON"
Ha ha ha, this is gonna be so funny. Watch these monkeys get slapped with fines for breaking the law.
And watch you sweating when we tell all these people who caused them the trouble. ;)
So because of your high and mighty attitude to others you're prepared to end up looking over your shoulder all the time?
I'm not joking either you know!
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So because of your high and mighty attitude to others you're prepared to end up looking over your shoulder all the time?
Lol, it is them who will be looking over their shoulder matey, in a "What will he report us for next" fashion.
As you may have guessed from my posts, I am not one to be intimidated. I feel sorry for any ladder boys near me, espcially ones that have nice juicy contracts I want.
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www.natbrit.com/newsdetail.aspx?id=32
www.safetyservices.co.uk/news.asp?ID=46
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You will feel intimidated if you've ruined someone's livelihood, and they know it was you.
Do you really think they're not going to go looking for revenge? ::)
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From that very link :
These Regulations do not ban ladders but say they should be used only when all other safer alternatives for work at height have been ruled out.
Which is exactly what I have been saying.
If you dont believe me then believe the head honcho of the HSE !! LOL
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so let me get this right, you are saying that window cleaning from ladders is NOT "work at height?"
No, I'm not. Of course using ladders is working at height, but by saying all 'ladders are banned because you can use water fed pole' is misinterpreting the working at height regulations. As you use the ladder for such a short amount of time the risk is acceptable as long as you use it safely.
Also using WFP in a drought is not against the law, or can you show me somewhere that says it is?
www.defra.gov.uk/environment/water/resources/drought/pdf/droughtdirection1991.pdf
That wasn't the point of what I was saying, just an example.
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From that very link :
These Regulations do not ban ladders but say they should be used only when all other safer alternatives for work at height have been ruled out.
Which is exactly what I have been saying.
If you dont believe me then believe the head honcho of the HSE !! LOL
If that's the case I'm ruling out other safer alternatives because:-
I don't like water fed pole systems
I'm crap with a telescopic pole and squeegee
So ladders will have to do then. Completely within the law.
If you don't own a wfp system, then you are doing it by the safest means possible. ;)
Tell him to swivel.
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Exactly.
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I'd love Tennet clean to report a ladder user (for window cleaning). Then he will tell us what the health and safety folk do about it.
Do it Tennet ... I'd love to hear the response, and whatever it is it will do us all a service so we can know what to expect.
BTW, if you live in Coventry and want to use ladders away from Tennet's eagle eyes just work on council estates because he never goes on them! ;D ;D ;D
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Myth: HSE has banned stepladders
April 2007The reality
We have not banned stepladders - nor have we banned ladders! Despite this, the allegation is regularly repeated and some firms have fallen for the myth and acted upon it.
For straightforward, short duration work stepladders and ladders can be a good option, but you wouldn’t want to be wobbling about on them doing complex tasks for long periods. A large number of workers are seriously injured or killed using ladders and stepladders each year. So:
Yes – we want people to use the right equipment for the job.
Yes – there are some common-sense rules for using them safely.
But no – we have not banned them!
www.hse.gov.uk/myth/april.htm
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I'd love Tennet clean to report a ladder user (for window cleaning). Then he will tell us what the health and safety folk do about it.
Do it Tennet ... I'd love to hear the response, and whatever it is it will do us all a service so we can know what to expect.
BTW, if you live in Coventry and want to use ladders away from Tennet's eagle eyes just work on council estates because he never goes on them! ;D ;D ;D
Best post of the night LOL
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Him, put his money where his mouth is?
I hope you're having a laugh, he's all mouth. Theres no way he'll follow it up.
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well personally .. i like a nice packet of roast beef monster munch.....i can eat them more now i dot have to clim up and down ladders.... ;D
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oh my god!
i truely cant belive you guys are entertaining this plank on a saturday. he is perpously causing an argument because he has no other life to be getting on with. cant you see??
it is so simple, let him report as many w/c using ladders as he wants. i give it a day before the HSE investergates his business and operating procdurs for wasting there time.
THERE IS NO LAW!!!
HSE lay down guide lines, these are to be followed to insure a safe working enviroment. they are not law. the guide lines say where possable use alternitive methods to do work at height. well there is the 'its accessing hight not working at height' argument then theres the 'wfp dont clean windows because thy are left unclean and not dont to a required standard' argument.
i'm gonna do this, i'm gonna do that blar blar blar..
hes a plum.
look in when the goverment bring in there new 'green law's' preventing any one using exess water. it is already law that any new property is fitted with a water meter that the water board can moneter if you are using to much water. by 2012 every house will be fitted with one as part of the H.I.P.S.
was it bob dillion that said...''and a times they are a changing''.
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well personally .. i like a nice packet of roast beef monster munch.....i can eat them more now i dot have to clim up and down ladders.... ;D
i also like walkers cheese and onion....but only on special occasions :)
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ah
HE IS A TROLL ;D ;D ;D
i get it now
sorry tennet i thought you actually WERE serious
did not realise that you are a wind up boy
fair do i fell for your crappy wind up ;D
very good
over and out ;)
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i like apples i eat them while i'm climbing ladders. i dont get FAT because there healthy and i'm keeping my heart rate between 135 and 145 bpm keeping me in the fat opptermen fat burning zone. hence why i look great and pick up work from chicks managing maintance account for office blocks and resadentral premmasis. fat old boys dont stand a chance when i tender!! 8) 8) ;D ;D
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ah
HE IS A TROLL ;D ;D ;D
i get it now
sorry tennet i thought you actually WERE serious
did not realise that you are a wind up boy
fair do i fell for your crappy wind up ;D
very good
over and out ;)
Nr thorpe you need to listen to andrea bocelli ( album vivele best of ) and then post . . . . . ;D
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who is andrea brocolli ???
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He is an opera singer who is blind , but when you listen to his voice ......well you are transported to a happy place . Whenever I am down i stick on his cd and everything in your life is ok ;D
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got it now ;D
googled him
i already have most of the tracks on that cd
just done by other people ;D
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cathrin jenkins. mmmmmm
class and arse. :P
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Am relying on you to help me out with wfp mate ;D
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Am relying on you to help me out with wfp mate ;D
who me ???
i am an amachure ;D ;D
mr sol knows all
and he dont use barrels or a car
so he MUST know all ;D
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4 jobs that i do have banned me from using ladders on there property,it will come slowly but surely it will come.Ok you use ladders on your 2 up and 2 downs day in day out but that kind of work dosen`t earn you top dollar,
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THERE IS NO LAW!!!
Just to clear this matter up!
Working at Height regulations, was a european directive and each member state had to implement this into law, this directive was layed before the house of Commons and was ratified into UK law on April 2005
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yes its law you have to abide by the wahr but the wahr dont say you cant use ladders!
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I'm wfp, but no one is going to tell me how to go about my business!! If I wanted to use a ladder then I would!!!!!!!!!!! >:(
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that is JUST the point. the the powers that be can not stop an indervidual using a ladder. if they did thousands of people would lose there jobs including the ladder manafactures. it would be against our citerzanz rites to be told we can climb a ladder.
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Wow, i get in from a night out and your still arguing about me in my absence
To put the record straight: this is not a wind up, I am deadly serious I will be reporting ladder users. Maybe a test case is just what we need in order to clear things up. I wonder who the lucky one will be.
If that's the case I'm ruling out other safer alternatives because:-
I don't like water fed pole systems
I'm crap with a telescopic pole and squeegee
So ladders will have to do then. Completely within the law.
Foxman, I'm glad you've dropped the "I'ma health and saftey officer" baloney, especially in view of the less than perfect safety record of your company.
You cant just rule out alternatives for no good reason. The regulations say
(2) Every employer shall ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely otherwise than at height.
Just because you dont "like" waterfed poles does not make them impractical. Say it went to court, how could you argue that wfp is not practical when hundreds of people use em for this sort of work every day. You couldnt. I dont "like" having to wear a seatbelt. I still have to.
Also, squeaky clean, not owning a WFP system does not make them impractical either. That is effectively saying that you did not have the equipment needed to work legally. LOL how far will you get with that!
Foxman, the best thing to do is to use a mewp dont you think? Oh better not do that after the prohibition order eh? Once again, do you suppose you are the best person to be advising on H&S after those 5 breaches?
It IS wrong to say that ladders are banned, they are not. The way I understand it YOU CAN use ladders for windows that you wouldnt be able to do with WFP. Fine, I'm happy for ladder monkeys to use them for NON WFPable windows (like over a garage roof I suppose) for the other 99% of windows that they clean, I will have my camera at the ready
Why does everyone keep saying its a wind up, LOL I really am gonna do it. I may even post the pics up here to show you. Seriously, if you use ladders near coventry, you should be worried.
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cathrin jenkins. mmmmmm
class and arse. :P
I'd have to agree. I'd give her 1, (out of 1 for musical talent).
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that is JUST the point. the the powers that be can not stop an indervidual using a ladder. if they did thousands of people would lose there jobs including the ladder manafactures. it would be against our citerzanz rites to be told we can climb a ladder.
Sorry to be contrary mate but er, yes they can, and yes they have.
Since when has it been a citizen's "right" to climb a ladder? LOL it aint.
if they did thousands of people would lose there jobs including the ladder manafactures.
So, you think that its ok to put peoples safety at risk to keep ladder manufacturers in business. No offens mate but somehow I dont think that is a top priority of the Health and Safety bods. Saving lives might rank a little bit higher.
FAO MATT: (The matt who calls me tuppence clean)
Only just seen your email matey, its sorted!
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good luck in the dole que son when they ban wfp's due to exess water use. xx
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good luck in the dole que son when they ban wfp's due to exess water use. xx
I think it will be quite interesting if that happens and I for one would like to see that one argue'd in court on Health & Safety Issues. I'm sure the media would love it too.
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I think you are just having a laugh, but just in case your not.
If you have an alternative method, to clarify a bit more you don’t have to run off and buy a WFP system. The law has not single out window cleaners because they use ladders.
Window cleaners DO have a alternative method. They have WFP, and the HSE even says so on the table here: www.hse.gov.uk/falls/window.htm
This differs from roofers and the like because they DON't have an alternative method to work at height.
Just because you dont happen to own a pole system, it doesnt mean that the windows you clean cant be done with one. In other words, just because your poor, it dont mean the law doesnt apply. It does.
(ergo my advice that caused so much argument: "if you cant afford a pole system, dont become a window cleaner.")
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No, you’re wrong. I have recently done the iosh course. The use of ladders was covered and they are legal. (For Now)
Any window cleaner who doesn’t have (or want) a WFP system. Will not have an alternative way to clean at that given time.
You are confused, with there being an alternative and having an alternative.
Ewan
Sorry dont agree. I dont see how not being able to spend the necessary money makes you immune to the law.
Its like saying, "I want to be a motorcycle courier but I cant afford a crash helmet." Then expecting the plods to say "oh its ok then". The law is the law, it dont matter what your current financial circumstances are.
ESPECIALLY as wfp allows you to earn more money, and everyone knows that. You could not argue that using WFP was uneconomical.
AND dont forget this: I wont just be reporting for not having a WFP, my eagle eyes will be on the lookout for ladder clamps too. If your using ladders without stabilizers of some sort or someone footing them, that is YET ANOTHER breach.
How does that song go... "If the left one doesnt get you, then the right one will"
I defy anyone to argue that point. How many ladder boys use ladder clamps at every window? I dont think i've ever seen any window cleaner use them cos they are a pain in the neck to set up at every window. Time is money.
I'm fired up for this now, cant wait till monday. Hope I see someone
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LOL saying "You Lose" dont make you right matey.
In order to decide what you intend to do about a risk, you need to do a risk assessment. The risk assessment will be the basis for the precautions you take. The HSE Leaflet "Five steps to risk assessment says:
"The law requires you to do everything ‘reasonably practicable’ to protect people from
harm. You can work this out for yourself, but the easiest way is to compare what
you are doing with good practice."
Note that it does NOT say, "choose whatever happens to be available to you at the time" If you did that you would not be planning the work at height properly.
Organisation and planning
4. - (1) Every employer shall ensure that work at height is -
(a) properly planned;
If the HSE investigated, what would they find to be current "GOOD PRACTICE" in window cleaning? They would of course say waterfed pole. Therefore they would say that a risk assessment would have shown that the best method to employ is WFP.
Therefore, "sorry mr ladder man, you should have got a WFP system as that is current good practice" is what the result would be.
You lose. I win (the contract)
Also, the economics of WFP are a consideration. If someone came up with a device that did away with the need to work at height but it cost £5 million quid, or made the job take 5x longer, then that would not be considered reasonably practical. The point i am making is that WFP makes the job MORE profitable, therefore "I didnt use WFP cos i cant afford one" would never stand up in court.
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I think you are misunderstanding me (and maybe vice versa)
You seem to be saying that saying "I dont have a pole system available to me" is a good enough reason to rule out this alternative to work at height.
What I'm saying is, a risk assessment is not restricted to what methods happen to be available to you at the time. It has to include other reasonable possibilities too, hence the question "what is good practice".
In other words, if you did a risk assessment, you would have to ask yourself "what is accepted good practice for this task" as well as "what is reasonably practical" and if you did that you cant get away from WFP, even if you dont have one it will still be viewed as good practice.
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Tennent
Ladders are used at Sandringham
Wfp is not allowed.
Do you think they would allow ladders if they were banned ?
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I'm fired up for this now, cant wait till monday. Hope I see someone
I wouldn't if I were you.
I will see to it that you were the grass.
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If anyone wants to be extremely illegal, why not do what I saw a window cleaner doing the other day.
Using a water fed pole at the top of a ladder. So not only was he wasting the natural resources ie water, but he was also balanced on top of an unfooted ladder. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I think most of it hinges around the term "reasonably practical". That could be stretched to mean a lot of things.
Maybe it could be reasonably practical if investing in new equipment would cause adversity with cashflow.
Maybe if windows were oxidising it could be argued that working at height is needed.
Maybe it would be enough just for a customer to dislike WFP so you would need to work at height in order to keep your business.
The problem with wishy washy terms like "reasonably practical" is that no-one can be certain until it's tested in a courtroom.
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will someone please wrap TennetClean's hose around his neck and shut him up, its crap like this which ruins this forum,
i say ban TennetClean
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will someone please wrap TennetClean's hose around his neck and shut him up, its crap like this which ruins this forum,
i say ban TennetClean
Fair comment.
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Ditto.
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Squeaky, I am not intimidated by threats and if I get a reputation locally as a reporter of H&S (or a grass as you put it) then I dont mind that one bit. WOrk legally and you have nothing to worry about.
Guys, some perspective here I think.
Do you see me threatening anybody on this forum? Have I made any personal insults? No I havent. Though people have threatened and insulted me. Yet you think I should be banned just because you happen to disagree with what I say.
This is a forum isnt it? Isn't the whole point to discuss things and exchange view points? I dont mind if you disagree with me, that is your right. Surely it is also my right to to have my own views and disagree with you?
Ok maybe I am not very subtle in how I put things across, fair comment if I have offended people then I am sorry.
I think we have got as far as we can with the point and while there have been some good points made I still aint seen any argument that tells me my view of those regulatioms is wrong, and the only thing now is for me to get on with my campaign and we'll see what happens, i'll keep you posted. And if some ladder bloke loses a contract to me because he's not complying with the law, well I'm afraid thats business aint it.
Maybe i'll save somebodys life have you thought about that?
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Guys, some perspective here I think.
Thats rich coming from you.
Maybe i'll save somebodys life have you thought about that?
Covering up a bad motive with a good one doesnt cut any ice.
I still aint seen any argument that tells me my view of those regulatioms is wrong
Where does it say in any of the links youve used 'LADDERS ARE BANNED'? Just those 3 words. Where? Show me.
Your just a wind-up merchant: probably craving attention, like a child from a dysfunctional home where ANY attention is good attention.
Personally I think you detract from this forum, discussion is good, but you dont discuss per se, you take glee in making what are quite obviously antagonisng statements, and you dont hide from that fact; then profess total innocence and make out its just a discussion and its just freedom of speech.
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www.hse.gov.uk/myth/april.htm
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although I don't much like the way this has gone with lots of insults, I have to admit I find myself wanting to know what happens next. It will be interesting to see what a health and safety official has to say about a window cleaner on ladders. I also want to know if tennent gets beaten up for his trouble. For that reason i hope he doesn't get banned before he has a chance to report back.
As for the law i dont see what all the fuss is about. I use reach and wash and its safer and faster but it is more expensive in the first instance. The other day my girlfriend and I got talking to a fellow wc who saw us using the poles and came over to ask some questions as he was interested himself. I don't think he'll go reach and wash as he was a bit long in the tooth and couldnt really understand it, but I wanted him to think about it just for his own safety.
I know its not a ladder ban, but if avoiding work at height where possible does mean going out and getting a pole system if you dont have one then I hate to admit it but tennent is right and really that sort of amounts to a ladder ban anyway for window cleaning. But whatever you use there is plenty of work to go around theres a shortage of window cleaners, thats what we have found.
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Squeaky, I am not intimidated by threats and if I get a reputation locally as a reporter of H&S (or a grass as you put it) then I dont mind that one bit. WOrk legally and you have nothing to worry about.
Guys, some perspective here I think.
Do you see me threatening anybody on this forum? Have I made any personal insults? No I havent. Though people have threatened and insulted me. Yet you think I should be banned just because you happen to disagree with what I say.
This is a forum isnt it? Isn't the whole point to discuss things and exchange view points? I dont mind if you disagree with me, that is your right. Surely it is also my right to to have my own views and disagree with you?
Ok maybe I am not very subtle in how I put things across, fair comment if I have offended people then I am sorry.
I think we have got as far as we can with the point and while there have been some good points made I still aint seen any argument that tells me my view of those regulatioms is wrong, and the only thing now is for me to get on with my campaign and we'll see what happens, i'll keep you posted. And if some ladder bloke loses a contract to me because he's not complying with the law, well I'm afraid thats business aint it.
Maybe i'll save somebodys life have you thought about that?
Well why don't you just go and save the poor ladder guys' lives without going on about it on here? Posting on here about it is not an essential part of your plan to become an angel of mercy. This leads me to believe that you may have other motives. I could have some reasonable guesses as to why you need to post about it on here instead of just picking up the phone and doing it but I just can't be bothered with it.
Surely your campaign to save the world from itself (aka grassing) would be more effective if you gave no warning.
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although I don't much like the way this has gone with lots of insults, I have to admit I find myself wanting to know what happens next. It will be interesting to see what a health and safety official has to say about a window cleaner on ladders. I also want to know if tennent gets beaten up for his trouble. For that reason i hope he doesn't get banned before he has a chance to report back.
As for the law i dont see what all the fuss is about. I use reach and wash and its safer and faster but it is more expensive in the first instance. The other day my girlfriend and I got talking to a fellow wc who saw us using the poles and came over to ask some questions as he was interested himself. I don't think he'll go reach and wash as he was a bit long in the tooth and couldnt really understand it, but I wanted him to think about it just for his own safety.
I know its not a ladder ban, but if avoiding work at height where possible does mean going out and getting a pole system if you dont have one then I hate to admit it but tennent is right and really that sort of amounts to a ladder ban anyway for window cleaning. But whatever you use there is plenty of work to go around theres a shortage of window cleaners, thats what we have found.
He may well be right under the strictest interpretation of the law (though the "reasonably practical" bit could be a massive grey area). I don't believe he has any intention of going around grassing though. If he had, he wouldn't post it on here.
I'm making no more comments on this subject.
Do not feed the trolls !!!
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TennetClean
Let me enlighten you!
First off, do you know how to report the breaches of H&S! probably not! if you wont to know then I am full aware of this, and secondly you wont put them out of business because that is not what happens with H&SE they will be given a Improvement notice, then a Prohibition notice if they don't do anything, then and only then they will be Prosecution which takes a long time & many years, as that is the legal process in this country and there can be appeals
Now regarding the use of ladders for window cleaning is illegal! ::)
WAHR was written into UK law in April 2005, at the time one WFP surliper put pressure on the powers that be, to make the use of ladders illegal! they was saying the same as you ( Every employer shall ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely otherwise than at height.")
And yes they do have a good point, however that agreement at the time was lost and they have moved on to tank safety!
You must remember that WAHR is a regulation and its down to each industry to implement to there working practices, this is where Fed of Window Cleaners & APWC come in! at the moment the guidelines for safe use of ladders in window cleaning www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf are under review, once they are completed, and every window cleaner complies to this guidelines then you are complying to WAHR
When I was on APWC I asked are H&S officer for are committee to help with compiling theses guidelines, having been a window cleaner for over 20 years and 15 years up a ladder, I think I have a very good understanding of whats needed, I have sat on my desk top, a file of the draft copy of the guidelines, and its not illlegal to use a ladder for window cleaning
I really do hope you can take this good advice and not waste your time and others!
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That's not true either- it isn't a myth that the fire service are not allowed to use step ladders to fit smoke detectors because of health and safety.
Saying it's a myth, even by the enforceong body doesn't make it not true.
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Ah WC aka Andy
How you doing mate ?
Dave
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Ah WC aka Andy
How you doing mate ?
Dave
Yes very well dave, getting married next year :) (there goes all my profit ;D)
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Congratulations
Let us know when it is.
Dave
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Squeaky, I am not intimidated by threats and if I get a reputation locally as a reporter of H&S (or a grass as you put it) then I dont mind that one bit.
You won't be intimidated when you quite likely have your property or yourself done over by irate people who's livelihood's you've ruined?
Because they will.
Maybe not all of them, but some certainly will get revenge.
You only have to look at the working class backgrounds of some window cleaners (particularly those who haven't splashed out on wfp), to know that you don't want to mess with them.
Ruining their family income is going to be seen very gravely.
I know I would if it was me.
I don't think you're Mike Tyson, so you'll end up losing in the end.
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for gods sake stop arguing with him its not elegle so he cant report ladder users. HSE will tell him to sling his hook and stop being such a geek.
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Well there we have it.
Ladders are banned ladders are not banned
use them for short periods is okay yeah right , where does it say you won't fall off a ladder in the first minute?
the so called traditional w/c who are scared of change don't seem to mind that they may be endangering OTHER
people by using ladders. If you weigh up the argument for and against and the risks associated with ladders and still continue to use them...well what happens if you fall and injure an innocent bystander.
What would you say to the innocent person who ended up in hospital after you fell on her/him when they ask you..
Is it safe to use ladders, is it the safest way to clean windows? isnt there a regulation about using the safest method? or did you just stubbornly refuse to accept HSE recommendations? thought you would save a bob or two eh?
To all you stuck in your ways, scared to invest amateurs, do you bother with public liability insurance ? and if you do and still use ladders well DOH cos the insurance will not cover you (so you are breaking a real law) because you failed to follow hse guidelines, even if you did complete a risk assesment, if you found there was no other practical method of cleaning windows all that means is your risk assesment was incorrect or incomplete.
Ladders for window cleaning are not excused as the regulation states not maybe or sometimes but actually states with no possible misinterpretation LADDERS MUST NEVER BE USED AS A WORK PLATFORM, where ladders correctly secured and managed can be used are for access only.
TC im with you I too will report any selfish window cleaner using a ladder, or walking on a ledge. This does not make me a grass, it is the same as i would report a bus driver for drinking and driving he might lose his livelihood
but hey maybe i saved his and other peoples lives too.
Reporting a wrongdoing is not grassing it is living in a democracy, it is for standing up for good against evil.
Would you not report a workman using a blowtorch in a garage forecourt? asbestos removers without masks?
And then why is it not okay to report others who do not follow the rules yet charge the same and share your business and rewards
Here you are...... say your football teams chairman put in only half the investment towards safety at his new stadium to save himself a few quid and you new about it?
Unlikely anyone would ever be hurt but it could happen would you turn a blind eye so the guy could " feed his kids" would you be happy to sit there with your kids?
TC it is people like you that make this country a better and safer place, it is people like you that act rather than turn a blind that make us all enjoy lives just a little less tragic, whether your motives are for more business for you to make more money or to save lives makes no difference the outcome will be the same..Coventry and the people of Coventry will be safer thanks to you....
and a last thought
scenario 1. local w/c gets grassed up, loses livelihood, no holidays no PS3 for the kids wife moaning about no money
or
scenario 2. local w/c gets grassed up, loses livelihood, no holidays no PS3 for the kids wife moaning about no money and he is dead> fell from a ladder six feet up broke his neck.
Rubbish? never happen to you ? i'll leave it up to you all to search the net for the awful sad stories of kids without Dads..... parents without sons/brothers etc
I'm with you TC and if only one person trad or wfp or an innocent bystander goes home safe because of your "grassing" i as a fellow forum member will be proud of you.
regards
Gordon
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Gordon,
Get off your high horse and sort yourself out; you've obviously got a few issues that a 'trick cyclist' could help you out with.
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TC it is people like you that make this country a better and safer place
LOL, Tennet, your union jack Y fronts are in the post.
Coventry and the people of Coventry will be safer thanks to you....
Classic. ;D
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Gordon you really are a complete and utter Wayne Kerr....I guarantee that more members of the public have tripped over a trailing hose than been crushed by a falling w/c....it's people of your ilk that make this country the sorry state it's in today.
Bet you don't let your kids play conkers without a visor in case one flies off and injures him....
....go and finish your muesli and come back when you've something sensible to say!
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Dont feed the trolls !!!!!
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Well isn't that a surprise
me me me me me me me me me me me and attack the person
thats all you guys ever do
why don't you respond with an opinion
oh sorry you probably thought you did
lol the good are always in a minority and i is up to us to lift your un-worthy feelings, to educate and improve lives that you seem unable to do for yourself oops your favourite word self
you belong to the same early w/c who laughed at the improvement of an applicator and a blade you know the ones in the olden days that used only shammies
as to what my kids do and dont do is none of your business but while they dont get wrapped in cottonwool they are advised as to what is safe and what is not. In my short window cleaning career of eight years i have fallen from two roofs and one ladder now cos i refuse to ask my team to use ladders does that make them " soft" or does it make me a responsible employer or because i burnt my hand in a fire when i was a kid am i wrong to warn my kids of the dangers of fire?
TC for safety minister
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I have read this post with interest and am suprised that so many of you have missed the obvious .
If you advertise and offer a TRADITONAL window cleaning service customers are employing you under those terms .
Could somebody please tell me how i can clean windows traditionally with my wfp?
If you want to use a ladder all you have to do is offer a tradtional window cleaning service and the only way to do this is with ladders.
Problem solved
Gordon aka Genius
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Well isn't that a surprise
me me me me me me me me me me me and attack the person
thats all you guys ever do
why don't you respond with an opinion
oh sorry you probably thought you did
lol the good are always in a minority and i is up to us to lift your un-worthy feelings, to educate and improve lives that you seem unable to do for yourself oops your favourite word self
you belong to the same early w/c who laughed at the improvement of an applicator and a blade you know the ones in the olden days that used only shammies
as to what my kids do and dont do is none of your business but while they dont get wrapped in cottonwool they are advised as to what is safe and what is not. In my short window cleaning career of eight years i have fallen from two roofs and one ladder now cos i refuse to ask my team to use ladders does that make them " soft" or does it make me a responsible employer or because i burnt my hand in a fire when i was a kid am i wrong to warn my kids of the dangers of fire?
TC for safety minister
You're obviously deficient in your daily muesli requirement Gordon...best you get munching!
Sorry Ian Troll feeding is fun!....OK I'll make an effort to grow up ;D
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...sorry I said "Ian"...should have been Dave...sorry!
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said with all the commitment of someone who hides his e-mail his age etc ec
wow you are so worth listening too
a b c d e f g oh sorry someone like you won't understand that
not surprised your name is ewan lol
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said with all the commitment of someone who hides his e-mail his age etc ec
wow you are so worth listening too
a b c d e f g oh sorry someone like you won't understand that
not surprised your name is ewan lol
Try looking at your own profile son...!
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oops sorry dave no jim no brian no oh
sorry simon could'nt resist
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said with all the commitment of someone who hides his e-mail his age etc ec
Hold on a minute
(http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2008Q1/grdons.jpg)
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it is ssoooooooooooo easy to manipulate you all
cmon how many looked at my profile c'mon you can admit it
now lets see
put your left leg in ha ha ha
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yep its hurting isnt ewan
you got caught and yet you still cant stop responding
advice is only ever good when its taken and by god you have been taken
there's certainly more to life than your window cleaning
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I love this forum and for the most part it's all good constructive input, a few laughs and general bon ami for fellow shiners....and then from time to time you get an complete numb-head like Gordon who has neither wit nor constructive input...I really can't be bothered to bandy words with such a nincompoop!
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oh Simon i must really have struck a chord
never mind the nanny state will come and put your toys back in your pram
Not me, but i heard today of someone local who has fallen off a ladder changing a light bulb and has broken his back. Don't have all the details yet but can't imagine it was anything more than a step ladder.
thats okay DJW it didn't hurt really " cos ladders are not illegal "
point proved and ask this poor poor person who fell if he would rather all ladders had been banned and that he had to fork out a few quid to have used the pole with the light bulb changer?????
oh no not that no really no not a NINCOMPOOP and here i was wondering what made a person want to be a moderator.. any pwer will do when you are short and bald eh?
best regards
poop
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hi guys!
i'm not gonna get involved in this crazy thread, just wanted to say thanks for keeping me entertained for the half an hour it's taken me to read it all
i'm outta here! ;D ;D
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I've just had a quick read through this thread and I really can't believe what I have read!!! I have been criticised in the past for my opinions, and have even been banned, but I sincerely hope I have never come accross in the way that this idiot does. I'm not going to get involved in an arguement with an idiot, and if the mods want to ban him then I say good!!!!
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FAO MATT: (The matt who calls me tuppence clean)
Only just seen your email matey, its sorted!
cheers for that :) :)
im a top singer, welsh see, all them years in the pit choir ;D ;D ;D, though my mrs and daughter both seem to disagree ;D
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Comments please?
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Comments please?
on what ??? ???
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You've all missed the point of my thread!!! Hello!! Get off this silly 'chat room' that's supposed to be for helpful advice and go and spend some time with a real person.
Crumbs, what a lot of tosh and bitchin this has created!
Goodbye
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Locked!