Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: WCE on April 23, 2008, 12:20:53 pm
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What a joke this has become. Those who subscribed never got the issues they paid for and now they send it to me for free even though I never asked for it! I just popped home for lunch and saw it had arrived. The last issue contained a letter about no canvassing zones and the editor replied saying that there would be an article on it in the next issue and how you can promote your business in these areas. I was interested in finding out about it as we have such zones where I am but Guess what not a sausage! What you do get is a 30 page advert for Ionic systems and their various offshoots and to be honest we've heard it all before. I understand they produce the magazine but does it have to be so biased? I am seriously considering setting up my own magazine that is unbiased to any supplier and talks about the issues that window cleaners want to talk about. Would anyone be interested in such a magazine? Also any ideas on the content would be most welcome. I am just your average window cleaner with no experience of publishing but would be interested in giving it a go if the interest was there. So over to you guys what do you think?
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yeah got mine today the ionics mag it should be called ! i have never subscribed either though something to read on the loo! i guess we will all be flocking to ionics to buy their crash tested systems though i was a little puzzeled why they did not show a system crash tested with a bulkhead and bolted though chassis ! only their own and some other that was only bolted through floor not a complete unbiased crash test i thought i think these tests need to be more thouroughly tested to be completely unbiased. ;D
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Even the picture on page 30 woudn't make me want to buy it. Grim trio they make.
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If its a totally unbiased magazine, which states the facts not what a select few agree with, then it should be welcome by us all.
As for content, anything that is related to the window cleaning industry and what is likely to affect us in the future should be included.
A complete company by company product review, which has been complied by those that have used the product not looked at a picture and have come to their own conclusions on what it can and cannot do.
A directory of suppliers, who are local to the cleaner not some mail order company, that would be of use for those that need their supply that day.
Also a list of current tenders that are available to cleaners nationwide to apply for.
Regular updates from HSE, The Water Boards, Governments Departments that affect or may affect our trade would be useful.
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i didnt subscribe either the thing is were did they get our details from or is it because we get the ionics cat may be its a ionic marketing thing :-\
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If its a totally unbiased magazine, which states the facts not what a select few agree with, then it should be welcome by us all.
As for content, anything that is related to the window cleaning industry and what is likely to affect us in the future should be included.
A complete company by company product review, which has been complied by those that have used the product not looked at a picture and have come to their own conclusions on what it can and cannot do.
A directory of suppliers, who are local to the cleaner not some mail order company, that would be of use for those that need their supply that day.
Also a list of current tenders that are available to cleaners nationwide to apply for.
Regular updates from HSE, The Water Boards, Governments Departments that affect or may affect our trade would be useful.
Thanks Hydro cleaners that was the kind of thing i was looking for regarding content. ;)
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i didnt subscribe either the thing is were did they get our details from or is it because we get the ionics cat may be its a ionic marketing thing :-\
Thats exactly what it is if you get the cat then you get the mag. Fair enough it is their mag and it's free but I think a mag that was written by window cleaners for window cleaners that was free from any ties with suppliers would be a good thing. Currently the closest thing that there is is the fwc's window talk but you need to be a member to get that. My mag would be available to anyone!
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professional window cleaner magazine.... they send me it too and I,m a right cowboy!!!
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The magazine is a selling tool for Ionics but you need to start looking at all the talk that is going on in these articles. Last month in the C&M magazine Tuckers were saying the same thing but worded it different.
Craig M is a very cunning business man and Ionics are being hit hard by new suppliers coming on board. They are a threat to Ionics so they will try what ever means to halt these suppliers.
From these articles you can see what plot they are attempting, page 19. It's very clear who they have been talking too and what they want to happen!!!!
I bet this gets deleted ;)
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Regarding my proposed magazine, being an unbiased publication I would be looking for articles from all sectors of the industry. All contributors would get the issue their article is in free as a thank you. So if you fancy a go at writing one now is your chance. If you are interested in writing an article or in receiving the mag then email me your details wce@sky.com Without your support the mag will never get off the ground so register your interest now if you want to see a magazine produced for window cleaners by window cleaners!
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Just had a browse through the latest PWC and it looks very good. I will certainly spend some time reading it in great detail.
However I really think that Philip Hanson now needs to be up front about the fact that all this is is an Ionic's advertising brochure. The only other firm advertising is surprise, surprise Pure20 and the picture of their website clearly shows exactly the same model wearing the same clothes as an earlier advert in the mag promoting the Ionics roadshow ;)
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I used to be a desk-top publishing assistant, so if anyone would like to colaborate on a magazine, I would be more than happy to help.
we would need...
Copywriter (to check spelling, grammar, facts etc...)
Graphic Designer (to design the major components of the magazine design)
Desk Top Publisher (to layout text / images in a compatable way for the printers)
Canvasser (for advertisers so we can afford to have it printed)
Article writers (got something you would like to share with other WC's?)
Whoops, just noticed the post by WCE. Contact him to add articles.
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Have a good read of the PWC Mag, not only may the crash test results affect van system installers but it may also affect every w/c with a van mounted system if insurance companies have anything to do with it.
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Why not produce some sort of e-zine...say on a bi-monthly or quaterly basis...
I would love to help...I am no great author or anything like that but there are a number of Dutch companies doing various things with WFP and I could be 'our man over there'....
Cheers
Dave.
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I'd like any w/c magazine to have a personal column - wants/for sale/swap/readers wives etc.
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Regarding my proposed magazine, being an unbiased publication I would be looking for articles from all sectors of the industry. All contributors would get the issue their article is in free as a thank you. So if you fancy a go at writing one now is your chance. If you are interested in writing an article or in receiving the mag then email me your details wce@sky.com Without your support the mag will never get off the ground so register your interest now if you want to see a magazine produced for window cleaners by window cleaners!
thats a very good idea, ;)
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i didnt subscribe either the thing is were did they get our details from or is it because we get the ionics cat may be its a ionic marketing thing :-\
thats it
it even has your same "ionics id number" on them both
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Regarding my proposed magazine, being an unbiased publication I would be looking for articles from all sectors of the industry. All contributors would get the issue their article is in free as a thank you. So if you fancy a go at writing one now is your chance. If you are interested in writing an article or in receiving the mag then email me your details wce@sky.com Without your support the mag will never get off the ground so register your interest now if you want to see a magazine produced for window cleaners by window cleaners!
thats a very good idea, ;)
its a good idea, its also the same idea that philip hanson had a few years back, great in theory
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What a great read, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
ProPole
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The magazine is a selling tool for Ionics but you need to start looking at all the talk that is going on in these articles. Last month in the C&M magazine Tuckers were saying the same thing but worded it different.
Craig M is a very cunning business man and Ionics are being hit hard by new suppliers coming on board. They are a threat to Ionics so they will try what ever means to halt these suppliers.
From these articles you can see what plot they are attempting, page 19. It's very clear who they have been talking too and what they want to happen!!!!
I bet this gets deleted ;)
i havent got the mag
whats on page 19, as if its what i have heard, its a concearn
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Matt, yes he may of had the same idea but what went wrong and how did Ionics come to take it over? Judging by my inbox the interest is there and people really do want an unbiased magazine. I would be interested to know what went wrong with the original plan as I don't want to make the same mistakes.
Just had a browse through the latest PWC and it looks very good. I will certainly spend some time reading it in great detail.
However I really think that Philip Hanson now needs to be up front about the fact that all this is is an Ionic's advertising brochure. The only other firm advertising is surprise, surprise Pure20 and the picture of their website clearly shows exactly the same model wearing the same clothes as an earlier advert in the mag promoting the Ionics roadshow ;)
Yes Alex it does look good and I want to produce a magazine that looks at least as good if not better but without the whole thing being one big advert for a particular company. There will be no ties to any company although they will be welcome to submit new products for review. One feature I have thought of is a sort of get to know your supplier. All companies will be offered the chance to be featured in this section and they will be able to give you a bit of background, history etc about the company. One company would be featured per issue so one issue would be Gardiners pole systems and next ionics and then maybe pure freedom, broadex, unger etc. All would be welcome.
Why not produce some sort of e-zine...say on a bi-monthly or quaterly basis...
I would love to help...I am no great author or anything like that but there are a number of Dutch companies doing various things with WFP and I could be 'our man over there'....
Cheers
Dave.
Dave, I did consider an ezine but thought about it and decided that a magazine would be better because 1. You can take your mag to work and read it lunch times 2. Not everyone has the technical ability to download ezines and some may not even have access to a computer. 3. Hopefully suppliers could be persuaded to stock it. Some one starting out may not search online for a mag about window cleaning but the chances are they will visit a cleaning equipment supplier eg express. With regards to you writing articles YES YES YES! your idea about being our man with the news of the dutch I love it! That is the kind of things that would really be interesting to find out about. Personally I know nothing about the dutch developments and would love to know more. I used to be a desk-top publishing assistant, so if anyone would like to colaborate on a magazine, I would be more than happy to help.
we would need...
Copywriter (to check spelling, grammar, facts etc...)
Graphic Designer (to design the major components of the magazine design)
Desk Top Publisher (to layout text / images in a compatable way for the printers)
Canvasser (for advertisers so we can afford to have it printed)
Article writers (got something you would like to share with other WC's?)
Whoops, just noticed the post by WCE. Contact him to add articles.
Sanity, You could be just the man i am looking for! I will be in touch!
Any offers of help are greatly received, Keep them coming and don't forget if you want to see a magazine that is written by us (window cleaners) for us then keep those emails coming!(wce@sky.com) It will take me a while to get through them all but the more support I get the quicker I can get this baby of the ground!
Pete ;)
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Matt read jeff1's post on will this affect the future of w/cing
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I'd like any w/c magazine to have a personal column - wants/for sale/swap/readers wives etc.
I wouldn't mind having a classifieds section for sales/swaps/wanted my only concern would be that as the mag would be bi-monthly at most would people bother advertising there? As for the readers wifes love it! LoL!
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I have signed up for the pwc mag many times, am still yet to get more than one copy god knows how long ago I have given up trying now.
A pro mag would be very good as I have already said as long as people that ask for it get it.
Ian
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I have signed up for the pwc mag many times, am still yet to get more than one copy god knows how long ago I have given up trying now.
A pro mag would be very good as I have already said as long as people that ask for it get it.
Ian
I can understand your concerns about not receiving it (Although I have never had that problem- The answer is request an ionics cat by the way) I think to begin with it would have to be sold on an issue by issue basis and only look into subscriptions when the demand has been proved.
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I have signed up for the pwc mag many times, am still yet to get more than one copy god knows how long ago I have given up trying now.
A pro mag would be very good as I have already said as long as people that ask for it get it.
Ian
I can understand your concerns about not receiving it (Although I have never had that problem- The answer is request an ionics cat by the way) I think to begin with it would have to be sold on an issue by issue basis and only look into subscriptions when the demand has been proved.
put me down for the first 6 issues I will be your first customer ;)
Maybe get a free advert for design for being customer number 1 ;)
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I have signed up for the pwc mag many times, am still yet to get more than one copy god knows how long ago I have given up trying now.
A pro mag would be very good as I have already said as long as people that ask for it get it.
Ian
I can understand your concerns about not receiving it (Although I have never had that problem- The answer is request an ionics cat by the way) I think to begin with it would have to be sold on an issue by issue basis and only look into subscriptions when the demand has been proved.
put me down for the first 6 issues I will be your first customer ;)
Maybe get a free advert for design for being customer number 1 ;)
I will add you to the ever growing list of interested people
How about you write an article about using the web as a promotional tool!
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One thing I forgot to ask is does anyone have any suggestions as to what my mag could be called?
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Matt, yes he may of had the same idea but what went wrong and how did Ionics come to take it over? Judging by my inbox the interest is there and people really do want an unbiased magazine. I would be interested to know what went wrong with the original plan as I don't want to make the same mistakes.
allegedly ( my disclaimer ;))
Philip had the idea, he of course had to sell adverts, contacted all the suppliers, ionics came in and had a few pages in the mag, the mag didnt sell enough adverts to others which was going to mean no mag, so ionics made philip a offer to work for them ( this was all hush hush ), he took it, thus the rest is history
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Matt, yes he may of had the same idea but what went wrong and how did Ionics come to take it over? Judging by my inbox the interest is there and people really do want an unbiased magazine. I would be interested to know what went wrong with the original plan as I don't want to make the same mistakes.
allegedly ( my disclaimer ;))
Philip had the idea, he of course had to sell adverts, contacted all the suppliers, ionics came in and had a few pages in the mag, the mag didnt sell enough adverts to others which was going to mean no mag, so ionics made philip a offer to work for them ( this was all behind doors and hush hush ), he took it, thus the rest is history
Thanks for explaining that. I never saw the mag in it's original form and didn't know anything about the background of how Ionics got involved. Did Phillip do it for profit? (i mean set the mag up in the first place) I have been on to some printers who have given me an idea to cost. I don't want to make money from it BUT it does need to cover it's costs. The amount of emails I have had about it just shows the interest is there and I can say that I need a few more people to say they would be interested in it (It will not be free). I have an idea of the number of people I need to buy an issue to break even and wouldn't need advertisers to cover those costs. It can be done! The advertisers attracted would allow me to expand the content etc without having to dip into the sales revenue but the mag could actually stand alone without advertising providing the support ie readers were there. keep Emailing!
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One thing I forgot to ask is does anyone have any suggestions as to what my mag could be called?
The True Window Cleaners Mag
I'm all for an un-biased w/c mag, but please remember the time that will be eaten up by you producing it will be very large, don't let it affect your means of making a living.
If the mag does take off, let me know and we will give you plenty of advertising on the T/A forum
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How about:
'Squeegee'
'The Formby' ;)
'Widow Cleaners Quarterly / Monthly'
'Not today thanks'
Oh, and getting a magazine printed is dead cheap too (from £550 for 8 pages on glossy paper with cover full colour for 1000 copies).
We could take adverts from ALL people / businesses involved in window cleaning, not just Ionics.
WFP suppliers
Trad suppliers
Web Designers
Insurance companies,
Vehicle suppliers / fitters
Graphics companies
Safety clothing suppliers
Could include...
Articles about WFP
Articles about Trad
Tips & Tricks
Letters to the Editor
Wanted / for sale / swapshop sections
News / legislation
Product reviews
Sound good?
With enough advertisers, it could pay for a living for a couple of people anyhow. Maybe a couple of people would have to produce it as a part-time job ( editor / designer / advert canvasser at least)
Economic viability of it would have to be assessed, including competatve advertising rates to cover production costs / renumeration.
(I used 'we' because I would like to be involved in the production / editorial side of the mag, if that is viable :) )
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Why do I not get these mags anymore?? Anyone want to send me their copy when they've finished it? Don't understand why I don't get it anymore.
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Why do I not get these mags anymore?? Anyone want to send me their copy when they've finished it? Don't understand why I don't get it anymore.
Order there catalouge and you will get there mag.
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I think this is a good idea. Any mag has to have some bias, but if you left the content fairly open then the criteria could be what is of interest, or expressed in a colourfull way. Would I be allowed to write an article about buying one of my franchises?
I'm not having a lot of luck on here and now vince has outed me i'm going to have to come up with some new ideas for conning people >:(
I think an emag would be good and easier to produce. As always the income stream is a problem.
Just read sanitys post so 10k of mags would cost 5k, so would need £5k per issue.
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Why do I not get these mags anymore?? Anyone want to send me their copy when they've finished it? Don't understand why I don't get it anymore.
Order there catalouge and you will get there mag.
i got a cataouge a few weeks ago, i thought it was the mag ;D ;D
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One thing I forgot to ask is does anyone have any suggestions as to what my mag could be called?
The True Window Cleaners Mag
I'm all for an un-biased w/c mag, but please remember the time that will be eaten up by you producing it will be very large, don't let it affect your means of making a living.
If the mag does take off, let me know and we will give you plenty of advertising on the T/A forum
I understand the time factor has got to be taken into account but thats partly why I would limit the issues per year. By the way I applied to your forum but haven"t heard nothing back!
How about:
'Squeegee'
'The Formby' ;)
'Widow Cleaners Quarterly / Monthly'
'Not today thanks'
Oh, and getting a magazine printed is dead cheap too (from £550 for 8 pages on glossy paper with cover full colour for 1000 copies).
We could take adverts from ALL people / businesses involved in window cleaning, not just Ionics.
WFP suppliers
Trad suppliers
Web Designers
Insurance companies,
Vehicle suppliers / fitters
Graphics companies
Safety clothing suppliers
Could include...
Articles about WFP
Articles about Trad
Tips & Tricks
Letters to the Editor
Wanted / for sale / swapshop sections
News / legislation
Product reviews
Sound good?
With enough advertisers, it could pay for a living for a couple of people anyhow. Maybe a couple of people would have to produce it as a part-time job ( editor / designer / advert canvasser at least)
Economic viability of it would have to be assessed, including competatve advertising rates to cover production costs / renumeration.
(I used 'we' because I would like to be involved in the production / editorial side of the mag, if that is viable :) )
Sanity I have found printers 200 Cheaper than that. I can get 20 pages for not much more than the price you quoted. Also with regards to advertising, Yes I want people to advertise and anyone will be welcome to advertise in the mag but regarding the costs Matt, yes he may of had the same idea but what went wrong and how did Ionics come to take it over? Judging by my inbox the interest is there and people really do want an unbiased magazine. I would be interested to know what went wrong with the original plan as I don't want to make the same mistakes.
allegedly ( my disclaimer ;))
Philip had the idea, he of course had to sell adverts, contacted all the suppliers, ionics came in and had a few pages in the mag, the mag didnt sell enough adverts to others which was going to mean no mag, so ionics made philip a offer to work for them ( this was all behind doors and hush hush ), he took it, thus the rest is history
Thanks for explaining that. I never saw the mag in it's original form and didn't know anything about the background of how Ionics got involved. Did Phillip do it for profit? (i mean set the mag up in the first place) I have been on to some printers who have given me an idea to cost. I don't want to make money from it BUT it does need to cover it's costs. The amount of emails I have had about it just shows the interest is there and I can say that I need a few more people to say they would be interested in it (It will not be free). I have an idea of the number of people I need to buy an issue to break even and wouldn't need advertisers to cover those costs. It can be done! The advertisers attracted would allow me to expand the content etc without having to dip into the sales revenue but the mag could actually stand alone without advertising providing the support ie readers were there. keep Emailing!
I think you may of missed this.
As for your offer to assist with the project Yes please! Email me your details and I will get back to you with all the information I have so far
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I think this is a good idea. Any mag has to have some bias, but if you left the content fairly open then the criteria could be what is of interest, or expressed in a colourfull way. Would I be allowed to write an article about buying one of my franchises?
I'm not having a lot of luck on here and now vince has outed me i'm going to have to come up with some new ideas for conning people >:(
I think an emag would be good and easier to produce. As always the income stream is a problem.
Just read sanitys post so 10k of mags would cost 5k, so would need £5k per issue.
No the cost drops with volume. Out of interest I enquired how much it would be for a print run of 100 and was quoted 509.90 or 5.10 per mag!
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i guess he set out to make money from it
allegedly
i know he was a window cleaner at the time, from what followed he allegedly stopped doing his window cleaning to become a employer of ionics ( so i guess he done ok out of it )
BUT
what price your soul :P :P :P
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I think this is a good idea. Any mag has to have some bias, but if you left the content fairly open then the criteria could be what is of interest, or expressed in a colourfull way. Would I be allowed to write an article about buying one of my franchises?
I'm not having a lot of luck on here and now vince has outed me i'm going to have to come up with some new ideas for conning people >:(
I think an emag would be good and easier to produce. As always the income stream is a problem.
Just read sanitys post so 10k of mags would cost 5k, so would need £5k per issue.
No the cost drops with volume. Out of interest I enquired how much it would be for a print run of 100 and was quoted 509.90 or 5.10 per mag!
i guess if you sold adverts to make up 2 / 3 quid a issue you have a go'er
then you might also have a phone call to join them :P :P :P
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I think this is a good idea. Any mag has to have some bias, but if you left the content fairly open then the criteria could be what is of interest, or expressed in a colourfull way. Would I be allowed to write an article about buying one of my franchises?
I'm not having a lot of luck on here and now vince has outed me i'm going to have to come up with some new ideas for conning people >:(
I think an emag would be good and easier to produce. As always the income stream is a problem.
Just read sanitys post so 10k of mags would cost 5k, so would need £5k per issue.
No problem about articles. Write 'em and they shall read :D If they delv too much into the realms of advertisement though, advert rates may have to be applied (to maintin as little bias as possible), so any article should be as neutral as possible (a job for the copywriter) in relation to mentioning particular companies, unless it is specifically relevant to the article. for example, your article would have to be about the advantages of franchising but without showing a bias to any particular company
Do you really think we would need 10k copies? I don't think we would need that many, maybe 1k to start with and increase publication from there.
As for an e-zine...while they are definately easier to produce, I personally like the idea of being able to keep the magazines in binders etc. Nothing like a bit of 'dead' media :)
Lets say we produce 1000 copies and they all sell ( at a nminal charge of £1 per copy.) This easily covers the costs for the printing and distrobution of the magazine. The advertising (at maybe £100 per quater page? I dunno current rates so I would have to investigate this...) would have to cover the costs for the people producing / editing the magazine. And if it is a quaterly publication, this could be a simple part-time wage.
I don't have a particularly big round, and I have plenty of spare time so I would be glad to help with this project part time.
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WCE
I will donate £50 to help get it running
Dave
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One thing I forgot to ask is does anyone have any suggestions as to what my mag could be called?
The True Window Cleaners Mag
I'm all for an un-biased w/c mag, but please remember the time that will be eaten up by you producing it will be very large, don't let it affect your means of making a living.
If the mag does take off, let me know and we will give you plenty of advertising on the T/A forum
I understand the time factor has got to be taken into account but thats partly why I would limit the issues per year. By the way I applied to your forum but haven"t heard nothing back!
[quote ]
Just checked and all you have to do now is log in with your name and password
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Why not produce it as an E-Mag, this will do away with printing and postage costs?
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The cost to produce the mag would be covered if you had enough customers of course,your money would be made with selling advertising space as it is with all magazines.
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Thanks for sorting that out jeff, With regards to the emag did consider an ezine but thought about it and decided that a magazine would be better because 1. You can take your mag to work and read it lunch times 2. Not everyone has the technical ability to download ezines and some may not even have access to a computer. 3. Hopefully suppliers could be persuaded to stock it. Some one starting out may not search online for a mag about window cleaning but the chances are they will visit a cleaning equipment supplier eg express.
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Check these guys out for quote on printing...
mixam (http://www.mixam.co.uk)
As for an e-zine / E-Mag. I dunno whether this would work, unless there was a kind of 'paypal' payment scheme with a buy-it-now type thing (dunno much about e-payment)
Maybe subscription?
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Why do I not get these mags anymore?? Anyone want to send me their copy when they've finished it? Don't understand why I don't get it anymore.
Order there catalouge and you will get there mag.
Who? The Ionics catalogue?
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Why do I not get these mags anymore?? Anyone want to send me their copy when they've finished it? Don't understand why I don't get it anymore.
Order there catalouge and you will get there mag.
Who? The Ionics catalogue?
Yes!
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£1 for an 8 page booklet, lol who is going to pay that.
Lol, no offense guys but I think you need to think it through. remember you'll have to be spending 27p each to mail it.
Put me down for one though, as you know i love cobbled together stuff.
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Mixam is one of the companies i got a quote off (the cheapest so far!)
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TennetClean, the 8-page thing was just an example of a price for printing, not a definative specification for the magazine, but thanx for your input.
I would imagine that the magazine will ave a pagecount dependant upon the number of articles and adverts the magazine getsd submitted. Although there will obviously need to be a cutoff point and a theme for each issue, for which articles will have to be requested.
How big do people think it should be? 20 pages? 26? (in covers)
Ideas please so I can play with layout ideas (I love Adobe InDesign and QuarkExpress :) ) :)
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Tennet clean. I dont recall ever saying the publication would be 8 pages I plan it to be 3 times that and also the mag will prob. cost more than £1.00 (more like £2.00 per issue. Sanity was just using them as an example. I dont mind you commenting but make sure you've got your facts straight!!! The Interest is so high in this mag that all the emails just crashed my computer!
By the way Dave st ives, Thanks for the offer i will be in touch soon!
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WCE, looks like we are on the same wavelength ;)
Anyhow, Ill have a mess about with InDesign and if you want help, let me know :)
Keep the ideas coming people :)
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One thing I forgot to ask is does anyone have any suggestions as to what my mag could be called?
How about
"The Iconic".
Watch those writs start flying for using a similar word :)
Or how about "The Water Babies"?
"Partners in Grime"
"Lord of the Rungs"
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Tennet clean. I dont recall ever saying the publication would be 8 pages I plan it to be 3 times that and also the mag will prob. cost more than £1.00 (more like £2.00 per issue. Sanity was just using them as an example. I dont mind you commenting but make sure you've got your facts straight!!! The Interest is so high in this mag that all the emails just crashed my computer!
By the way Dave st ives, Thanks for the offer i will be in touch soon!
its ok, Tuppence Clean loves to make no constructive comments
keep at it guys
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Sanity (Andy) I have sent you an email did you get it?
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this is the mag of the future www.flashpageflip.com/demos/free/
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£1 for an 8 page booklet, lol who is going to pay that.
Lol, no offense guys but I think you need to think it through. remember you'll have to be spending 27p each to mail it.
Put me down for one though, as you know i love cobbled together stuff.
Anyway tennet clean, whatever price we charge if you wanna save money on the cost why not join the master guild of window cleaners you were so nice about! Seriously Guild members will receive a discount on the cover price.
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this is the mag of the future www.flashpageflip.com/demos/free/
[/quote
Maybe but this is a magazine for now not the future! When we get to the stage where we have to move over to that format , we will
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The franchise bit was a joke, i have no connection with franchises except of course in the regular vince green column 'sitting in the back of my cab' where he gives his taxi driver opinions on various people and issues mainly in the erudite style of alf garnet.
As for the mag, one how about a mock up, which could be in publisher which is easier than adobe and people coujld swap files and pics. Two look at other examples there is a good blogg by the spanish chap on the academy.
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WCE
I will donate £50 to help get it running
Dave
Just in case you missed it in my earlier post (I couldn't quote you when my computer crashed) Thank you for your support I will be in touch soon. We will run you an ad for your donation! Anyone else who wants to donate will be able to book advertising space soon and your ad will be ran in the launch issue!
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The franchise bit was a joke, i have no connection with franchises except of course in the regular vince green column 'sitting in the back of my cab' where he gives his taxi driver opinions on various people and issues mainly in the erudite style of alf garnet.
As for the mag, one how about a mock up, which could be in publisher which is easier than adobe and people coujld swap files and pics. Two look at other examples there is a good blogg by the spanish chap on the academy.
Many people do not have publisher, adobe most people have because it is free ;)
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WCE
I will donate £50 to help get it running
Dave
Just in case you missed it in my earlier post (I couldn't quote you when my computer crashed) Thank you for your support I will be in touch soon. We will run you an ad for your donation! Anyone else who wants to donate will be able to book advertising space soon and your ad will be ran in the launch issue!
I will match that ;)
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WCE
I will donate £50 to help get it running
Dave
Just in case you missed it in my earlier post (I couldn't quote you when my computer crashed) Thank you for your support I will be in touch soon. We will run you an ad for your donation! Anyone else who wants to donate will be able to book advertising space soon and your ad will be ran in the launch issue!
I will match that ;)
See you managed to get your add anyway! what about writing an article windowwashers!
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Ps thank you!
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Got the email. Loooking forward to this project hitting the ground running :)
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Best of luck, i will certainly read it.
I thought you could read in adobe but not write, but you computer people must know best.
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One thing I forgot to ask is does anyone have any suggestions as to what my mag could be called?
How about
"The Iconic".
Watch those writs start flying for using a similar word :)
Or how about "The Water Babies"?
"Partners in Grime"
"Lord of the Rungs"
I hadn't noticed this. These are really witty! If I wanted a laugh I would call it out of these the iconic. I could just imagine our friends in swindon on a monday morning after seeing the new mag thats been launched. 8am arrive at work 8.01 on the phone to the solicitors! still would be funny!
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Best of luck, i will certainly read it.
I thought you could read in adobe but not write, but you computer people must know best.
Email me then discount and i will add you to the mailing list. Then we can contact you when we are ready to launch!
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Ps In case you missed it discount my email is wce@sky.com let us know of your interest there and we will keep you updated! (and anyone else who is interested)
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WCE
I will donate £50 to help get it running
Dave
Just in case you missed it in my earlier post (I couldn't quote you when my computer crashed) Thank you for your support I will be in touch soon. We will run you an ad for your donation! Anyone else who wants to donate will be able to book advertising space soon and your ad will be ran in the launch issue!
I will match that ;)
See you managed to get your add anyway! what about writing an article windowwashers!
I will think of something, maybe about the need for a website (I know I know what people will say) but this really is a problem because if it was not a problem people would stop calling me because they cant find one.
Ian
p.s your welcome
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WCE
I will donate £50 to help get it running
Dave
Just in case you missed it in my earlier post (I couldn't quote you when my computer crashed) Thank you for your support I will be in touch soon. We will run you an ad for your donation! Anyone else who wants to donate will be able to book advertising space soon and your ad will be ran in the launch issue!
I will match that ;)
See you managed to get your add anyway! what about writing an article windowwashers!
I will think of something, maybe about the need for a website (I know I know what people will say) but this really is a problem because if it was not a problem people would stop calling me because they cant find one.
Ian
p.s your welcome
Dont worry about what people will say! You run a web design business so what else do they expect you to write about! I for one would be interested in that. Maybe you could write about the pros web marketing and how to get the best out of google listings.
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One other thing Ian, Maybe you could sponser our our first comp! After seeing what the winner got from your own comp I know there would be plenty of interest!
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One other thing Ian, Maybe you could sponser our our first comp! After seeing what the winner got from your own comp I know there would be plenty of interest!
I may do, depending on the amount of interest you get, I will have a chat with you about it ;)
I know a few others that will help also with content ;)
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The more content the better. If you have any ideas for articles, please let either myself or WCE have them, as they will help when designing the layout of the mag. And knowing what people wanna talk about will guide the theme too.
Anyone who might be interested in advertising, let us know. The more interest we get the better as we can work out the finance side of it better...
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How about calling it "The "Real" Window Cleaner" ?
Just a thought.
I would be interested in this and would be willing to assist.
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The Shiner :)
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The Shiner :)
Oddly enough, that hadn't occurred to me as being a magazine title. It is a good one though.
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We will have to call it something soon! What about Real Window Cleaner or the Shiner? They seem to be the best so far. Which do you think window cleaners. This magazine is going to be for you so you should help to decide what it's gonna be called!!!
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Hi,
Shiner
Kevin WINDOLENE
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If the project comes together as well as the intent behind it, then it could be very exciting. You would undoubtedly get suppliers advertising in it (we would, definitely) as long as it doesn't become another blatant propaganda machine for one company!. For it to have a wider audience and a greater chance of success, it may be an idea to consider carpet cleaning and gutter cleaning sections also. As these trades are quite often linked to the window cleaning world it could also add to the number of subscribers/advertisers.
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The other company would need some involvement or presencce.You can't pretend they don't exist they are a big and positive part of the industry. Since the other mag started things have moved on and there is a lot more totake peoples interest whether it's some of the larger than life npersonalities or reviews of some great kit.
I have to be honest I was always a bit off with Phil, mainly because I found his posts too long and tedious. What I like is short sharp snappy and interesting. As foxman says with possible asrticles on pressure washing, gutter vacs, door knocking, commercial work.... then carpet machines on abd on, it could be a must read.
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What about jokes? Can anyone draw cartoons?
Howq about a man and a van WFP'oler,(a character who's an exageratted version of us) who either has a one frame joke or a shortthree frame strip in each edition.
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What about jokes? Can anyone draw cartoons?
Howq about a man and a van WFP'oler,(a character who's an exageratted version of us) who either has a one frame joke or a shortthree frame strip in each edition.
a cartoon of a man holding a pole, im sure they would love that ;D ;D ;D
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What about jokes? Can anyone draw cartoons?
Howq about a man and a van WFP'oler,(a character who's an exageratted version of us) who either has a one frame joke or a shortthree frame strip in each edition.
a cartoon of a man holding a pole, im sure they would love that ;D ;D ;D
My father -inlaw does cartoons I will ask him to do one
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What about jokes? Can anyone draw cartoons?
Howq about a man and a van WFP'oler,(a character who's an exageratted version of us) who either has a one frame joke or a shortthree frame strip in each edition.
a cartoon of a man holding a pole, im sure they would love that ;D ;D ;D
I much rather see a young blond holding a "pole" ::)
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What about jokes? Can anyone draw cartoons?
Howq about a man and a van WFP'oler,(a character who's an exageratted version of us) who either has a one frame joke or a shortthree frame strip in each edition.
I did try to get my sis inlaw to do a photo shoot for me as she a model but she laughed thinking I was joking, I thought bikini with window washers on would look great, she thought not, will keep trying on that one
a cartoon of a man holding a pole, im sure they would love that ;D ;D ;D
I much rather see a young blond holding a "pole" ::)
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And a brain teaser (courtesy lj thorpe) . I got locked into the customers back garden by accident, how did i get out?
(that's not a dig i thought the solution was quite clever)
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The sis in law would be a great front page ww, what's new (small insert pic of my electic reel), what's hot (small insert of nathans system), what's good (jeffb's water frugality) what's bad (overlaiden van) And dangerous to know! (insert pic of frontpage first edition with sis plus inserts etc,
Inside letter from the editor, hi this has been a long time coming a completly independant mag for all cleaners that highlights all that's best and most interesting in our industry. Read about all the stuff, see reviews......
Contents
Article; It pays to invest
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The sis in law would be a great front page ww, what's new (small insert pic of my electic reel), what's hot (small insert of nathans system), what's good (jeffb's water frugality) what's bad (overlaiden van) And dangerous to know! (insert pic of frontpage first edition with sis plus inserts etc,
Inside letter from the editor, hi this has been a long time coming a completly independant mag for all cleaners that highlights all that's best and most interesting in our industry. Read about all the stuff, see reviews......
Contents
Article; It pays to invest
lol
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Possible title for mag.
The Trade Magazine for All Window Cleaners or (Professional Cleaners)
(We here to Help and Advise, not to SELL)
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"The Cobbler"
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The other company would need some involvement or presencce.You can't pretend they don't exist they are a big and positive part of the industry. Since the other mag started things have moved on and there is a lot more totake peoples interest whether it's some of the larger than life npersonalities or reviews of some great kit.
Sorry I haven't kept up with it all tonight as I had to go out. Discount if by the other company you mean ionics (you can say their name!) then of course they will be welcome to be involved. As I said in earlier posts all suppliers and window cleaning related companies will be equally welcome to submit material and all suppliers will be welcome to submit products for review but they must understand that their products will all be tested on individual merit so if their product isn't up to scratch we will say but equally when a product is good we will tell you regardless of it's origin.
If the project comes together as well as the intent behind it, then it could be very exciting. You would undoubtedly get suppliers advertising in it (we would, definitely) as long as it doesn't become another blatant propaganda machine for one company!. For it to have a wider audience and a greater chance of success, it may be an idea to consider carpet cleaning and gutter cleaning sections also. As these trades are quite often linked to the window cleaning world it could also add to the number of subscribers/advertisers.
While I am happy to include features on carpet cleaning etc the only worry I have is I personally don't know much about carpet cleaning, but, if we could find someone to assist with that area then maybe it could become a regular feature.
The gutter cleaning , fascias and upvc cleaning will all be covered. Ps we will be in touch foxman about the advertising, which supplier are you if you dont mind me asking?
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"The Cobbler"
Is that because of how you think it's going to turn out? Because if so I am gonna love proving you wrong!!!
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"The Cobbler"
Is that because of how you think it's going to turn out? Because if so I am gonna love proving you wrong!!!
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design wise quark express is a good idea
as for prices
you can make it as cheap or as dear as you want
well as dear anyway ::)
if you can find a 4 col jobbing printer who needs some regular work you would be suprised how cheap it can be
"PanesWorld" ;D
"TheView"
"Clear"
as banners with a sub heading under like
"THE pro window cleaners mag"
or something ???
maybe not
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Can I put an article about window cleaning on council estates in? I think that would go down well.
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"The Cobbler"
There's still no icing on tennets cake!! ;D
It would be good to see another mag. It's hard not to be dubious about it though cos philip hanson attempted the same thing and he's a clever chap.
I enjoyed reading the ionics mag that came yesterday.
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We are currently obtaining quotes from many suppliers regarding printing although even if we cant find anyone cheaper than we've got already then we have already found quite good prices. However, LJ Thorpe if you happen to know anyone who might be able to better it then let us know. Sanity and I will be going over the finer details over the next few days and will then know the exact cover price and advertising rates etc. We will also start to look at content and will start asking for the submissions. The next stage will then be to get the 1st issue ready to print. It is a case of when not if and we hope it won't be too long (poss in the next 2 months).
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Can I put an article about window cleaning on council estates in? I think that would go down well.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
How much would we have to edit to avoid upseting a group of our readers ;D ;D
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what run volumes
format size
colour throughout ???
no. of pages
supplied copy
paper spec etc
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I will email you the specs we used as a samples
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Window cleaning mavericks- I only clean posh peoples house's and I don't care a hoot who knows!
A profile of Tennant would be good, well voluntereed, you can be one of them celebrity WC's.
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what run volumes
format size
colour throughout ???
no. of pages
supplied copy
paper spec etc
I will email you the specs we used as a samples
Or I would if I knew your email. Email wce@sky.com and I will send the specs by return.
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Window cleaning mavericks- I only clean posh peoples house's and I don't care a hoot who knows!
A profile of Tennant would be good, well voluntereed, you can be one of them celebrity WC's.
Actually you may joke but I hope that we will be able to interview windows from all walks of life about their views on the industry, so maybe tennet will feature!
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Window cleaning mavericks- I only clean posh peoples house's and I don't care a hoot who knows!
A profile of Tennant would be good, well voluntereed, you can be one of them celebrity WC's.
Actually you may joke but I hope that we will be able to interview windows from all walks of life about their views on the industry, so maybe tennet will feature!
I would certainly pay for that issue. Even if no others. ;D
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what run volumes
format size
colour throughout ???
no. of pages
supplied copy
paper spec etc
I will email you the specs we used as a samples
Or I would if I knew your email. Email wce@sky.com and I will send the specs by return.
i did before you posted this ;D
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Oh right I will check my email shortly... Still sorting through my inbox! have a few more replies to get through as well but I will be replying to everyone who has got in touch regarding the mag. (I would have it done quicker but this forum is addictive!)
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LOL!!! :D It might not have much mileage as a feature! I meant window cleaners from all walks of life! Although it would be interesting to hear the views of the a pane of self cleaning glass and it's plans for world domination of the window cleaning industry!
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what run volumes
format size
colour throughout ???
no. of pages
supplied copy
paper spec etc
I will email you the specs we used as a samples
Or I would if I knew your email. Email wce@sky.com and I will send the specs by return.
i did before you posted this ;D
Just to let you know I have just checked and I haven't received your email!
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The idea for an article about cleaning different areas (council / private) is a good idea. Maybe one person stating the good and bad about private areas, and one about council areas, then we can draw a comparison on the two. Plus the comparison would allow a non-bias factual conclusion. Might make a good 3 or 4 page spread...
Forward your ideas please!!!
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It might turn into a bit of a minefield though if not handled correctly and we could alienate some readers so it would have to be carefully planned but you could also expand the concept and compare commercial and domestic window cleaning as well Sanity I will email you this evening to discuss where we are at with the project!
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Just my two penneth, and it's nothing to do with me but I would suggest you leave things more open for disscusion. When you have a number of ideas to work with then you can decide which ones to go with. There are options you haven't considered, would a publisher fancy taking this on in some kind of partnership with you guys- and presumably the support of some members of the forum- .
An attempt at a mock issue would at least give some kind of feel for the thing and you could get some feedback.
Run too far and too fast on your own and that's where you'll be, on your own.
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Just my two penneth, and it's nothing to do with me but I would suggest you leave things more open for disscusion. When you have a number of ideas to work with then you can decide which ones to go with. There are options you haven't considered, would a publisher fancy taking this on in some kind of partnership with you guys- and presumably the support of some members of the forum- .
An attempt at a mock issue would at least give some kind of feel for the thing and you could get some feedback.
Run too far and too fast on your own and that's where you'll be, on your own.
The publisher idea is something we may look into my only concern is what the demands of a publisher might be. The reason we cant do a mock issue is because of a lack of funds and any funds we do have will have to go into the first issue. Issue 1 will be sold on a trial basis ie they will be sold by post only no subscriptions. If we are a success (I hope we will be) we will then continue to produce a magazine bi-monthly and will be able to offer subscriptions commencing with issue 2. More details will be posted as soon as I have them
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ht tp://www.magazine.org/FAQ/2112.cfm
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Thanks for the link mark could be useful!
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What would be a new approach or a different idea is that if you made it implicit that the magazine was written for window cleaners and by window cleaners (i'm including carpet and general cleaning too that was just a figure of speech), and not professional journalists. In other words accept a lower level of copy standard, and in some cases grammar, and in some cases poor structure in the articles.
Obviously you would proof read and copy edit, but what i'm getting at is that it would have a freshness and an immediacy with people actually involved writing some of the reports/reveiws and this would counter the blandness of brought in journos whose work may be of a higher literary standard, but less vital in it's impact and interest.
I feel that one of the shortfalls of the one i can't name is that a windbag is constantly trying to put a pro gloss on things when in fact what is required is brevity.
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What would be a new approach or a different idea is that if you made it implicit that the magazine was written for window cleaners and by window cleaners (i'm including carpet and general cleaning too that was just a figure of speech), and not professional journalists. In other words accept a lower level of copy standard, and in some cases grammar, and in some cases poor structure in the articles.
Obviously you would proof read and copy edit, but what i'm getting at is that it would have a freshness and an immediacy with people actually involved writing some of the reports/reveiws and this would counter the blandness of brought in journos whose work may be of a higher literary standard, but less vital in it's impact and interest.
I feel that one of the shortfalls of the one i can't name is that a windbag is constantly trying to put a pro gloss on things when in fact what is required is brevity.
Have you been asleep?! Thats what we are doing. The magazine will be written by window cleaners for window cleaners.
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I feel that one of the shortfalls of the one i can't name is that a windbag is constantly trying to put a pro gloss on things when in fact what is required is brevity.
he was a window cleaner though
my take on it is, its wrote by him then handed to the advertising dept who then rewrite stuff, though to be fair, philip was fairly articulate when on here
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One thing to consider is professional indemnity insurance, If you say the wrong thing about the wrong product, then you could find your self in a litigation law suit.
Tread very carefully
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Ionics are very cunning.
They were a major driving force behind trying to get ladders banned, they also tried to make it so every supplier had to crash test their van mounted systems. They failed at both & so continue to try whatever possible means to keep their once, almost unique business at the top when every day, smaller, more customer focused suppliers are growing in respect & all the time eating away at Ionics share of the market.
A self-promoting magazine is just one of many marketing techniques used by them. ;)
Tony
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In other words accept a lower level of copy standard, and in some cases grammar, and in some cases poor structure in the articles.
SO what you're saying is, dumb it down in order to appeal to window cleaners. I find that a little offensive mate to be honest, and I don't think i would be the only one.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but what youre saying there is that window cleaners are thickos. Cheers!
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In other words accept a lower level of copy standard, and in some cases grammar, and in some cases poor structure in the articles.
SO what you're saying is, dumb it down in order to appeal to window cleaners. I find that a little offensive mate to be honest, and I don't think i would be the only one.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but what youre saying there is that window cleaners are thickos. Cheers!
I think that was aimed directly at you mate ;)
;D ;D ;D
Tony
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I think that was aimed directly at you mate
Oh thats ok then. Put me down for a years subscription then and I'll read it while I drool.
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hehe. I think, from what I have read here and from my own ideas that The Shiner (working title) will be a good read, informative, down-to-earth while retaining the ability to present issues, articles etc in a professional manner.
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hehe. I think, from what I have read here and from my own ideas that The Shiner (working title) will be a good read, informative, down-to-earth while retaining the ability to present issues, articles etc in a professional manner.
you could always call it window washer ;) I will even loan the domain name for it and the hosting
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In other words accept a lower level of copy standard, and in some cases grammar, and in some cases poor structure in the articles.
SO what you're saying is, dumb it down in order to appeal to window cleaners. I find that a little offensive mate to be honest, and I don't think i would be the only one.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but what youre saying there is that window cleaners are thickos. Cheers!
No Tenant that's not what I meant, and I was surprised that WCE should think he was doing that already. This isn't my idea it is WCE's and Sanity's and I will gladly step away if either thinks i'm trying to take over or steer them in a direction they don't want to go in.
To me there needs to be at least two clear business plans. One is the publishing side, will it be monthly, will it be for sale on newsagents shelves, will it have a wider general audience and how will this affect the title and content.
The other is the editorial, what path is to be taken and who is it aimed at. Where will the articles come from? How many features per edition?
Or, what about an approach to the windbag(silly) himself, craigs smart enought to buy into this. They know all about the hostility in some quarters to their company and they can probably go along with our blandness point.
So, what it is, most papers have editorials. These generaly reflect the views of the paper. For example you wouldn't expect a good pro labour story put across in a positive way in the daily telegraph.
However, the best newspapers in the world such as the New York Times now have things called op-eds where a contrary opinion can be put.These are often the best bits in the paper, provoke the strongest reader reaction, and are a great way of selling papers.
So what about an approach that says give us two pages in your mag, let us say some things you don't much like on occasion, and if you feel the need to shoot us down great, but it would greatly increase the readability..
I nominate Matt to make the pitch
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Comments about this of course.
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I have not read all the posts but I have read quite a few of them, and here are my thoughts.
It will never get off the ground, and if it does it won't last a year. Hopefully in a years time someone will bring up this post and prove me wrong. Anyway here's why.
It will take too much work, and cost too much money, for it to be even half decent. If it is not professional then people will slag it off at every opportunity. You will also struggle to get enough decent content to keep it going, and if you do you will have all the formatting and editing to do. I don't know how much spare time you have, but hopefully you will have a lot, as you are going to need it.
Peter
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I agree with Peter in a way.
It will only succeed if you have 100% dedication and loads of spare time.
Dont under estimate the commitment required,
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I agree too, it is one of those just suppose ideas though.... Thats typical of you peter, applying common sense.
But what about my op-ed thing, can't we talk them into giving us a page or two. I've seen more life in a morgue.
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I have not read all the posts but I have read quite a few of them, and here are my thoughts.
It will never get off the ground, and if it does it won't last a year. Hopefully in a years time someone will bring up this post and prove me wrong. Anyway here's why.
It will take too much work, and cost too much money, for it to be even half decent. If it is not professional then people will slag it off at every opportunity. You will also struggle to get enough decent content to keep it going, and if you do you will have all the formatting and editing to do. I don't know how much spare time you have, but hopefully you will have a lot, as you are going to need it.
Peter
I think peter is right.
I think there is probably a good reason why ionics/bwca do it now, MONEY. I bet to produce something like this takes lots of money and more importantly lots of time. To get someone capable to spend time putting something like this together you need to pay them.
Sure there'll be plenty of numpties who will volunteer their time free just for the "prestige" but are they gonna be able to write anything worthwhile? Probably not. You'd end up with a low-quality product and how long before they get fed up and pack it in? (No matter what it was, someone here would criticise it, maybe loads of people. That will make whoever is doing it discouraged and not want to bother anymore.)
Capable people never do stuff for free unless its for a charity in my experience.
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I have not read all the posts but I have read quite a few of them, and here are my thoughts.
It will never get off the ground, and if it does it won't last a year. Hopefully in a years time someone will bring up this post and prove me wrong. Anyway here's why.
It will take too much work, and cost too much money, for it to be even half decent. If it is not professional then people will slag it off at every opportunity. You will also struggle to get enough decent content to keep it going, and if you do you will have all the formatting and editing to do. I don't know how much spare time you have, but hopefully you will have a lot, as you are going to need it.
Peter
I think peter is right.
I think there is probably a good reason why ionics/bwca do it now, MONEY. I bet to produce something like this takes lots of money and more importantly lots of time. To get someone capable to spend time putting something like this together you need to pay them.
Sure there'll be plenty of numpties who will volunteer their time free just for the "prestige" but are they gonna be able to write anything worthwhile? Probably not. You'd end up with a low-quality product and how long before they get fed up and pack it in? (No matter what it was, someone here would criticise it, maybe loads of people. That will make whoever is doing it discouraged and not want to bother anymore.)
Capable people never do stuff for free unless its for a charity in my experience.
Some people do things for free for many reasons, I myself have done this ask MBS
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The vast majority of time spent compiling a publication such as 'The Shiner' is gathering the articles / chasing the authors of the articles.
The formatting of a magazine does not take much time once your design template has been worked out, fonts decided, etc.
The design side, the editorial side and the business plan side are all at the embryo stage at the moment, but WCE and I will be getting some dialogue going in order to take the first steps in the realisation of this new magazine.
Keep the ideas coming, and the constructive critisism of each others ideas, but please refrain from out and out negativity. The more encouragement we get and the more feedback the better and more focused we can be on making this more than just a flash-in-the-pan.
If anyone would like to be on the contributors list, please email WCE stating your particular speciality (if you have one) and the range of subjects that you would be able to provide knowledgeable, entertaining and interesting articles about for the readers to enjoy. this way we can decide upon a subject for the issue, then contact people on the contributors list to submit articles based upon the chosen theme.
The vast majority of the content in 'profession orientated magazines and journals' is provided by unpaid volunteers and contributing authors. Many want to share their expertise, others want to highlight issues to a wider audience, others simply enjoy having their name in print. The quality of the editing, grammar, punctuation, etc in the raw articles supplied by these people is often questionable, as can be the tendancy for authors to ramble on way past a specified word count. It is the skills of the editorial team that turn these rambling, sometimes dull articles into the engaging informative reads that end up in the printed journal / magazine. (I worked for The David Winson Organisation, a secratariat for many building related magazines and journals, many of which I used to lay out, edit and compile.)
As for the people who carry out the editorial / design / business side of The Shiner...well, advertising will hopefull cover a sum of renumeration comensurate with the time they spend doing the work. The cover price will be what pays for the printing costs. Again, this is in a very early stage, but that is how we HOPE it will work.
As I have stated, the idea is in a very early stage and will no doubt undergo many changes of direction / design / editorial content before the first issue is ready for print, so bear with us and keep giving us your support / ideas please
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A bit of advice if it does go ahead is have a section for new products. The American window cleaning magazine had one and as far as I was concerned it was the most interesting section they had. It might just be me because I develop new products, but anyone you speak to that has not been to a trade show usually asks if there was any new products on show. And at the trade shows the companies with the new products or inventions are the ones with the most people at the stand.
I don't know if it had a detrimental effect on Philip's magazine, but in the very early days of the Autobrush I offered Philip the chance to feature it in his new products section, thinking it would be beneficial for both of us. He declined saying he would only feature it if I had been advertising in the magazine. I may have advertised if he had featured it, but it never got that far. I think he missed out there, but it was his magazine at the time, and he done it his way.
Peter
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LOL peter, so you asked for a free advert and you were told NO
What a suprise
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Keep the ideas coming, and the constructive critisism of each others ideas, but please refrain from out and out negativity. The more encouragement we get and the more feedback the better and more focused we can be on making this more than just a flash-in-the-pan.
Surely it's better to get it now before you put to much work into it. Yous certainly won't be the first to try and get something like this together, and probably won't be the last.
I knew the ex-owner of the American window cleaning mag personally, as I done a few articles for him, and met him at a couple of trade shows, and I can tell you it was a struggle for him, and he couldn't wait to get out of it. I also know the amount of time he spent with emails flying back and forth across the Atlantic, for a simple editorial, or advert.
Peter
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LOL peter, so you asked for a free advert and you were told NO
What a suprise
I thought I was doing him a favour. This was before Ionics took it over, or maybe they had and I never knew about it yet. Anyway that is what magazines usually do, the American one I mentioned did, and the Cleaning and Maintenance offered me space for free, although I never got round to writing it up. I just thought I was doing Philip a favour as I knew him from on here.
Peter
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I thought I was doing him a favour. This was before Ionics took it over, or maybe they had and I never knew about it yet. Anyway that is what magazines usually do, the American one I mentioned did, and the Cleaning and Maintenance offered me space for free, although I never got round to writing it up. I just thought I was doing Philip a favour as I knew him from on here.
Peter
I think they may have thought it was more of a favour if you paid to advertise your product instead of wanting them to advertise it for you for nothing LOL.
I dont see how them giving you free advertising space is you doing them a favour? Maybe the other way around LOL
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I thought I was doing him a favour. This was before Ionics took it over, or maybe they had and I never knew about it yet. Anyway that is what magazines usually do, the American one I mentioned did, and the Cleaning and Maintenance offered me space for free, although I never got round to writing it up. I just thought I was doing Philip a favour as I knew him from on here.
Peter
I think they may have thought it was more of a favour if you paid to advertise your product instead of wanting them to advertise it for you for nothing LOL.
I dont see how them giving you free advertising space is you doing them a favour? Maybe the other way around LOL
I thought I had explained this 5 posts above. I don't think the American window cleaning Magazine, or the Cleaning and Maintenance magazine, would particularly want to give me a page in their magazine, if there was nothing in it for them.
Peter
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I still think it is worth a shot. I would pay to read it and would prob try and write an article for each issue if requested. It does not have to be monthly. Quarterly would be ample or even twice a year?
As far as producing it why not have a word with Mark at DP Design. I am sure he would give a really good price for putting it together? Maybe an exchange whereby he can advertise his services.
Also I know I suggestes "The Real Window Cleaner" as a title which I still prefer to "The shiner". I think you need to have window cleaner in the title.
So another suggestion is how about "The Independant Window cleaner"?
I know you seem to have settled on the Shiner but I still want to suggest.
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The Shiner is just a working title at the moment, refering to the nickname for window cleaners and reflecting the down-to-earth nature that we hope to instill in the magazine.
The title, along with everything else at this stage is open to suggestions and is subject to change.
The new products idea is a good one, but we would not use a whole page for a single product, as this would in essence be an advertisement. We may feature four or five new products on a double page spread with pictures, a small explaination about it and contact details for the manufacturer / retailer it can be obtained from.
Think kinds 'MAXIM / NUTS / FHM' gadget pages... Just an idea though. Having an item featured in this section may involve donating said item for a competition prize (aditional interest for the magazine and for the supplier of the item) or for an in-depth product review by our panel of independant testers. so if your products are good, they will get a good mark out of ten, if the testers don't like em it will get a low mark, but that is the chance you take...
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The Shiner is just a working title at the moment, refering to the nickname for window cleaners and reflecting the down-to-earth nature that we hope to instill in the magazine.
The title, along with everything else at this stage is open to suggestions and is subject to change.
The new products idea is a good one, but we would not use a whole page for a single product, as this would in essence be an advertisement. We may feature four or five new products on a double page spread with pictures, a small explaination about it and contact details for the manufacturer / retailer it can be obtained from.
Think kinds 'MAXIM / NUTS / FHM' gadget pages... Just an idea though. Having an item featured in this section may involve donating said item for a competition prize (aditional interest for the magazine and for the supplier of the item) or for an in-depth product review by our panel of independant testers. so if your products are good, they will get a good mark out of ten, if the testers don't like em it will get a low mark, but that is the chance you take...
That's OK. You can name it after me if you wish. I won't take legal action for breach of copyright :)
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Bless your heart :)
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Good morning!
I have got the details that i will be going through with sanity later on today ( dont forget to check your email later sanity!) I have not read all the posts but I have read quite a few of them, and here are my thoughts.
It will never get off the ground, and if it does it won't last a year. Hopefully in a years time someone will bring up this post and prove me wrong. Anyway here's why.
It will take too much work, and cost too much money, for it to be even half decent. If it is not professional then people will slag it off at every opportunity. You will also struggle to get enough decent content to keep it going, and if you do you will have all the formatting and editing to do. I don't know how much spare time you have, but hopefully you will have a lot, as you are going to need it.
Peter
I think peter is right.
I think there is probably a good reason why ionics/bwca do it now, MONEY. I bet to produce something like this takes lots of money and more importantly lots of time. To get someone capable to spend time putting something like this together you need to pay them.
Sure there'll be plenty of numpties who will volunteer their time free just for the "prestige" but are they gonna be able to write anything worthwhile? Probably not. You'd end up with a low-quality product and how long before they get fed up and pack it in? (No matter what it was, someone here would criticise it, maybe loads of people. That will make whoever is doing it discouraged and not want to bother anymore.)
Capable people never do stuff for free unless its for a charity in my experience.
No offence Peter but it you bothered to read all the posts you'd of read that I personally have spent the last few days making sure that we can afford to produce such a magazine. With regards to content I dont believe that we will have a problem getting content. I have said before , the idea of the magazine is that it's written by window cleaners for window cleaners so to a degree, if you want to see a magazine like this then the ball is in your court! Seriously as I said the magazines first issue will be somewhat of a trial issue and if successful then we will move into regular production. The idea is that we don't run before we can walk. We will be having a review section but I am sure we will have a section that is all about new/future products although it will be only work if the developers tell us about it. Peter we would of featured your brush but it would be in a section along with all the other suppliers new products. Finally, with regard to potential critisism well you cant please everyone all the time and I expect there will be people who might not like our mag but at the same time I believe there will be many more who do enjoy it - the first 100% unbiased magazine written for window cleaners by window cleaners.
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Anyway there must be real interest in this magazine or else there wouldn't be so many people viewing this thread and commenting on it!
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The vast majority of time spent compiling a publication such as 'The Shiner' is gathering the articles / chasing the authors of the articles.
The formatting of a magazine does not take much time once your design template has been worked out, fonts decided, etc.
The design side, the editorial side and the business plan side are all at the embryo stage at the moment, but WCE and I will be getting some dialogue going in order to take the first steps in the realisation of this new magazine.
Keep the ideas coming, and the constructive critisism of each others ideas, but please refrain from out and out negativity. The more encouragement we get and the more feedback the better and more focused we can be on making this more than just a flash-in-the-pan.
If anyone would like to be on the contributors list, please email WCE stating your particular speciality (if you have one) and the range of subjects that you would be able to provide knowledgeable, entertaining and interesting articles about for the readers to enjoy. this way we can decide upon a subject for the issue, then contact people on the contributors list to submit articles based upon the chosen theme.
The vast majority of the content in 'profession orientated magazines and journals' is provided by unpaid volunteers and contributing authors. Many want to share their expertise, others want to highlight issues to a wider audience, others simply enjoy having their name in print. The quality of the editing, grammar, punctuation, etc in the raw articles supplied by these people is often questionable, as can be the tendancy for authors to ramble on way past a specified word count. It is the skills of the editorial team that turn these rambling, sometimes dull articles into the engaging informative reads that end up in the printed journal / magazine. (I worked for The David Winson Organisation, a secratariat for many building related magazines and journals, many of which I used to lay out, edit and compile.)
As for the people who carry out the editorial / design / business side of The Shiner...well, advertising will hopefull cover a sum of renumeration comensurate with the time they spend doing the work. The cover price will be what pays for the printing costs. Again, this is in a very early stage, but that is how we HOPE it will work.
As I have stated, the idea is in a very early stage and will no doubt undergo many changes of direction / design / editorial content before the first issue is ready for print, so bear with us and keep giving us your support / ideas please
That is spot on exactly how it is!
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No offence Peter but it you bothered to read all the posts you'd of read that I personally have spent the last few days making sure that we can afford to produce such a magazine. With regards to content I dont believe that we will have a problem getting content. I have said before , the idea of the magazine is that it's written by window cleaners for window cleaners so to a degree, if you want to see a magazine like this then the ball is in your court! Seriously as I said the magazines first issue will be somewhat of a trial issue and if successful then we will move into regular production. The idea is that we don't run before we can walk. We will be having a review section but I am sure we will have a section that is all about new/future products although it will be only work if the developers tell us about it. Peter we would of featured your brush but it would be in a section along with all the other suppliers new products. Finally, with regard to potential critisism well you cant please everyone all the time and I expect there will be people who might not like our mag but at the same time I believe there will be many more who do enjoy it - the first 100% unbiased magazine written for window cleaners by window cleaners.
I did read what you said in the last couple of days regarding pricing. My concern was the amount of work that would be needed for it to be a success, and the fact that your own business would definitely suffer as a consequence of the time and effort needed.
I do remember the other mag when it first came out, and I remember the quality of it. It was still slated on here. And it still couldn't obviously make enough money to pay for itself. As far as the content goes you will have to spend quite a bit of time chasing up people to write content. Yes at first you will have quite a bit, but you will soon run out, people will get bored with it reading the same old stuff they have already read in other magazines. And besides there is more than enough information on anything you care to mention these days on the Internet, and especially forums such as this.
I hope you do go ahead with it, I would probably subscribe, but I just don't think it will ever get anywhere. It's all very well doing something for nothing while everyone is talking about it, and showing an interest, but it will be a different storey when the novelty wares off, and you are putting in a lot of hours in the week for nothing.
Peter
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peters right, and to succeed there needs to be disscusion, which there hasn't been, and a A wider circle of ideas and people involved than just two. imo.Regarding furure critisism even your posts contain poor grammar on a very short word count.
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I've just read through this interesting post and think the idea of a new and independant magazine is great.
However, Philip Hanson (editor of PWC Mag and ex Mod on this site (I took over as mod from him)) is obviously an intelligent guy; I believe he comes from a background in accountancy (which shows he has certain traits; such as an eye for detail), and he's also an excellent communicator; he also sounded like he has some guts (remember his fighting with FWC over seeing their accounts?).
Therefore I doubt Philip wanted his magazine to be Ionics owned; I also know he re-mortgaged his house to fund some of the magazine (I seem to remember Craig from Ionics posting he wanted Philip to show comittement to it, and that's how it was shown).
So my question is, if Philip Hanson couldn't do it, how can anyone else?
My advice to anyone wanting to start their own window cleaning mag, would be to track Philip Hanson down and seek some help from someone whose done it before. If this seems like a 'too big a job' don't start up a new magazine; you're not cut out for it (I certainly know I'm not).
And finally, I think there's a bit of apathy in the window cleaning trade when it comes to spending money on stuff we don't need. I remember someone here posting something along the lines of, 'What do I need a window cleaning magazine for? If I want to read about window cleaning I come on this site. If I have a question, I ask it here'.
I'm sorry for sounding negative; I'd hate to see someone spending their 'ard earnt on something that's a non-starter; but I do understand that where there's a will there's a way.
Good luck.
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peter's right, and to succeed there needs to be disscusion, which there hasn't been, and a A wider circle of ideas and people involved than just two, imo.<should be two spaces here>Regarding furure critisism even your posts contain poor grammar on a very short word count.
As do yours...
We welcome input from all quarters into the magazine, after all, we want to make it interesting to as wide an audience as possible within the window cleaning fraternity. However too many cooks spoil the broth, so decisions regarding the day to day running of the magazine will not be made by comittee. After all, the Editor (or financially responsible person) will be the one to make the final decisions as to the design, editorial, politics, content etc of the magazine.
If you have something that you would like published, or advertised or feel that you have enough expertise in the areas of design, publishing, editing, sales or copywriting please contact either myself or WCE with the details and we will be happy to take a look.
The 8 or so pages of this thread have been mostly discussion on this very topic. Please go back to the beginning and read...
As we have said and will continue to say, please forward all your ideas. But be CONSTRUCITVE with your critisism of the idea. No magazine has yet been produced so please refrain from comments such as 'your grammar sux so the magazine will sux...'
It is such a pity that some people feel the need to pull down not only the idea of doing something for the community of window cleaners, but that they also view an embryonic template layout (which is the stage I am at with the design) with derision based on nothing but supposition and assumption.
Please, if you have something to contribute we welcome it. If not, wait and see rather than slagging it off before it has taken shape.
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peter's right, and to succeed there needs to be disscusion, which there hasn't been, and a A wider circle of ideas and people involved than just two, imo.<should be two spaces here>Regarding furure critisism even your posts contain poor grammar on a very short word count.
As do yours...
We welcome input from all quarters into the magazine, after all, we want to make it interesting to as wide an audience as possible within the window cleaning fraternity. However too many cooks spoil the broth, so decisions regarding the day to day running of the magazine will not be made by comittee. After all, the Editor (or financially responsible person) will be the one to make the final decisions as to the design, editorial, politics, content etc of the magazine.
If you have something that you would like published, or advertised or feel that you have enough expertise in the areas of design, publishing, editing, sales or copywriting please contact either myself or WCE with the details and we will be happy to take a look.
The 8 or so pages of this thread have been mostly discussion on this very topic. Please go back to the beginning and read...
As we have said and will continue to say, please forward all your ideas. But be CONSTRUCITVE with your critisism of the idea. No magazine has yet been produced so please refrain from comments such as 'your grammar sux so the magazine will sux...'
It is such a pity that some people feel the need to pull down not only the idea of doing something for the community of window cleaners, but that they also view an embryonic template layout (which is the stage I am at with the design) with derision based on nothing but supposition and assumption.
Please, if you have something to contribute we welcome it. If not, wait and see rather than slagging it off before it has taken shape.
Jealous people will always do this as they have something missing in there lives, or would like you to come down to there level and do nothing.
Thats not aimed at anyone but very true, I got the same with website design giving something back to window cleaners, I always get knocked but will always get up and carry on.
As I have said the mag is a good idea, good on you and good luck.
Let ill made comments go over your head.
Ian
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Why somebody would need to re-mortgage their house in order to get a small circulation magazine up and running is beyond me. From the figures I have investigated it would not be more than one could finance via a credit card, not a mortgage.
I am sure Philip Hanson had the ability, knowledge and flair to make his magazine a success, and to be fair he did! It was such a success that he managed to get a major player in the WFP market to put THEIR money and time into the project! Success if ever there was...
Providing an independent magazine, without any affiliation to a particular brand is our aim, and our goal is to remain that way. I hope we succeed. But to do so we need the interest of advertisers, article writers, etc. So get writing :D
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I've just read through this interesting post and think the idea of a new and independant magazine is great.
However, Philip Hanson (editor of PWC Mag and ex Mod on this site (I took over as mod from him)) is obviously an intelligent guy; I believe he comes from a background in accountancy (which shows he has certain traits; such as an eye for detail), and he's also an excellent communicator; he also sounded like he has some guts (remember his fighting with FWC over seeing their accounts?).
Therefore I doubt Philip wanted his magazine to be Ionics owned; I also know he re-mortgaged his house to fund some of the magazine (I seem to remember Craig from Ionics posting he wanted Philip to show comittement to it, and that's how it was shown).
So my question is, if Philip Hanson couldn't do it, how can anyone else?
My advice to anyone wanting to start their own window cleaning mag, would be to track Philip Hanson down and seek some help from someone whose done it before. If this seems like a 'too big a job' don't start up a new magazine; you're not cut out for it (I certainly know I'm not).
And finally, I think there's a bit of apathy in the window cleaning trade when it comes to spending money on stuff we don't need. I remember someone here posting something along the lines of, 'What do I need a window cleaning magazine for? If I want to read about window cleaning I come on this site. If I have a question, I ask it here'.
I'm sorry for sounding negative; I'd hate to see someone spending their 'ard earnt on something that's a non-starter; but I do understand that where there's a will there's a way.
Good luck.
I do feel that it is something that I would be capable of doing myself - IF I didn't need to work. And that is probably the heart of the matter. If I was retired or even semi - retired, I could probably make a passable go of it (with support) but my preference would be to publish on the net. If published on the net it would probably need to be a freebie anyway as a password protection with a fee would not work. It would be too easy for one to pay and then distribute freely to others so it might as well be free to start with.
As things stand, if someone wants to make a go of it (by whatever method) I would be happy to try writing an occasional article for it. I'm hardly Brain of Britain but I do enjoy writing stuff just for myself. Hopefully others might like some of the things I would write.
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I think you should re read the thread yourself sanity and look at who has kicked in ideas, and if these ideas have been mulled over. This is what discussion should be and I feel it hasn't taken place.
Peter and Tosh et al were not negative, but trying to be realistic. What you are trying to do is massive. Picking out typos in my post and accusing me of 'slagging off' is a bit much and not promising for the future. As Peter said, the first issues of the other mag were very good but he still got slated.
If you can't take even mild critical comments without firing back aggresively I don't hold out much hope for your style of management if you are to rely on others cooperation.
Back to the topic. If there was some way of widening the audience so that it could be on newsagents shelves then you could be on to something. Very often at airports i pick up franchising magazines, and I believe the business aspect of what we do has some mileage.As to the title I agree with the guy that said window cleaner should be in the title (but also embracing a much wider audience, I mean beyond even carpet and other cleaners to the general public)
You do seem to know more about this than the rest of us Sanity- I admitt I know nothing about mags- and maybe where we are going wrong is in our underestimating the extent.. to which new technology (computers-email-internet) could be used to produce a very pro looking effort at a sensible price.
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May bee eye can right four ewe?
My righting skills are sew good that eye have know knead of a spell chequer.
(Even though eye used won four this post!)
;D
I thing queue knead two right bet Turin glitch.
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My appologies Discount Window Cleaning if you felt that I was 'picking' on you specifically, and if you percieved me to be 'agressive' I think you are being a little too sensitive.
I just think people in glass houses should not throw stones ;) We all make typos when we are trying to make a point (all to do with the brain being faster than the typer) but to pick up on them and use them as a 'reason' why a project won't work is a little petty...
I agree with you wholeheartedly that more ideas from the community need to be forthcoming, and I also agree that this is a massive project.
My point was that encouragement and suggestions tend to provide more enthusiasm than outright baseless negativity. Again, these comments are aimed an no-one in particular and should be taken in the spirit in which they are intended; one of 'come on guys, we can do this', rather than 'put up or shut up'...
Once again, if you feel that I 'fired back aggresively' then I can only ask that you read my comments again, as they were neither meant nor worded in an agressive manner. Sometimes the written word can read harsher than it was intended, especially when one is trying to be as succinct as possible in ones writing so as not to offend anyone *rolleyes*.
*back on topic*
Utilising Quark Xpress Passport 7.2, along with Photoshop CS3 and other assorted publishing and graphics tools will allow us to quickly put together a workable template design. Today for example, I have sorted:
Fonts
Sizes of text
Colours
Images
Overall Design
Advertising space locations and sizes
and have about 8 pages of mockup for WCE to look at and give me input upon.
The time consuming part is finding royalty free pictures to match articles. And obtaining articles in order to know what to theme the seasons magazine about....oh and obtaining advert artwork from people who have pledged to buy advertising space...Ok, it is lots of things that can slow up the magazine, but the design and layout is simply a case of experience and inspiration.
WCE and I hope to colaborate soon so we know we are working from the same song-sheet.
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Don't waste time trying to put me in my place address the issues. Several on here either have or used to have a high profile.(think about being on the APWC committee for instance) and they know what commitment means and the sort of thanks you are likely to get for it. I've been barracked and abused by some of the best so don't think slimey digs are going to bother me.
So, i'm suggesting you keep out of arguments and instead of accusing people of negativity deal with the substance of what they say. Ie.
I don't agree Discount and don't think this would be a good route to follow because...
My point about poor grammar was to WCE as presumably as editor he would be subbing others work.I find this an interesting topic and that is why I am posting. Why not give us an outline of a sample issue- and yes- let us critisise it.
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What you've added to your post- back on topic- is good. Finally you're begining to get the idea. So what's the list of contents articles and features for a mock issue?
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Thanx for your approval... ::) But please, before you go getting your knickers in a twist, try to read the thread. Neither WCE nor I have mentioned ANY definite content at all. So to critisise us regarding 'not addressing issues' is strange to say the least...Even WE do not know what sort of content will be included at this point. this will be decided AFTER we decide what the first issues theme will be, and will be decided by the editorial team / editor after we have sent for and recieved articles back from designated volunteer contributors.
As we are at the basic design stage at the moment, if you have any experience of desk-top publishing, graphic design, typography etc please feel free to give us some pointers.
The mock-up is simply a design layout using Jabberwocky text. This text is jibberish used to infill the text boxes in a realistic manner.
The design is currently being worked upon by myself. It consists of a few colour swatches, a few text boxes filled with text, font samples, different font sizes, mock adverts (for size / placement assistance).
Some made up article titles have been used simply to test placement / text size, text style, colour combinations. they DO NOT reflect in any way what may or may not be included in the magazine.
If you would like to see the mockup, and can accept a 15mb .pdf via e-mail I will be happy to send you a copy. Again, be aware that everything in it so far is simply just to fill spaces. The design and layout of image boxes and text boxes will change right up to the print deadline.
We are concentrating on this for now as once this is in place and decided upon, putting in the adverts / articles / features / images etc is easy and simply requires a little editorial input as far as wordcounts and ordering is concerned.
A final mock issue may be available in a month or so with the finalised design, but again with nonsense articles to fill up space. The articles will be inserted AFTER the trial team review the design and sign it off.
I know everyone has great ideas for what should go into the magazine and this is wonderful as it allows a broad spectrum of potential articles / features for us to chose from, and will ensure the longevity of the magazine. Unfortunately, not everyone can have as much input as they would like, again refering back to my 'too many cooks spoil the broth' comment earlier. The editorial and content cannot be decided by a comittee, otherwise what would be the point in publishing it? There owuld be that many people involved in the decisions regarding articles that everyone would know what was going to be in it before it was printed, and we would not sell any magazines!
Any and ALL contributions in the way of articles / ideas / feature ideas / advert possibilities etc is being recorded for later discussion.
This is not just WCE and I working on a magazine for window cleaners, it is the community here providing their ideas and inspiration to allow the designers and editorial team to create a magazine all window cleaners would be interested in reading. The decisions do need to be made though, and they will be made by the editorial team, whoever they may be.
Now, if we can remain calm, and stop throwing our toys out of the pram we might just get somewhere... ;)
*disclaimer* The use of 'we', 'us' etc do not imply that it is WCE and I alone working on the magazine. It is simply easier than constantly typing 'the team' or 'the editorial team' all of which are interchangeable. The terms refered to refer to any and all people who contribute to the magazine in a paid or unpaid capacity.
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I think this is an interesting idea, but I see several problems so far, as well as what has been said about the time needed
...and will be decided by the editorial team / editor after we have sent for and recieved articles back from designated volunteer contributors..
"Editorial team" lol its just two blokes, I think you are letting this go to your head a bit. Delusions of grandeur spring to mind.
As we are at the basic design stage at the moment, if you have any experience of desk-top publishing, graphic design, typography etc please feel free to give us some pointers.
Its good that your honest but it also is evident that you dont know what you're doing.
A final mock issue may be available in a month or so with the finalised design, but again with nonsense articles to fill up space.
So its taking you a whole month to put together... 8 pages of jibberish text. So how long for the actual mag? 2 years?
The articles will be inserted AFTER the trial team review the design and sign it off.
Trial Team? Sign it off? Lol, you are majorly getting carried away me thinks. How long before egos start to get n the way and people threaten to quit unless they get their own way blah blah. Its already happening.
Think it’s a great idea. But you need a real purpose for the magazine for it to be of any use, (and survive.) Without that what would it be?
Ionic has a purpose!
Ewan has made a good point. Support on the forum is all very well, but surely those people will go to THE FORUM for any info they want, why would they also read the same thing in a mag? SO far your only purpose seems to be to be a rival to the PWC magazine, rather than a motive of actally doing any good.
And finally...
From what I gather you are basically trying to do something so that it is not connected with ionics. Thats fine, but weather you like it or not they are the main wfp company and how seriously will you be taken if you have nothing about them at all? Something tells me they wont allow you to discuss their stuff and they dont need you as they have their own mag. Also if you criticise them you'll probably find yourself in court faster than you can say jack robinson.
No offense, but just going by what you've already said this is shaping up to be rubishy in comparison to their mag that has all the best gear in it and does look like a pro job. And theirs is free so they dont have to make it pay.
keep up the good work though LOL
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that was pretty good tennant, a case very well presented and illustrated. There does need to be a clear purpose over and above written by window cleaners for window cleaners. So I suggest that some kind of mission statement is agreed.
Sanity I am impressed with how you are going about things.I still think knocking content ideas about could pay.
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Right Tennent, your comments are most welcome but I feel that you have no real idea on what goes into production of a magazine the mock up issue will take us a month because sanity will have to finalise the layout of the magazine. Once this has been done we will have the basic template that the articles and features will be inserted into and therefore the layout will only have to be set once. Therefore each issue after this will hopefully be turned around in a reasonable timescale. Please remember that we are doing this from scratch. You say that the mag has to look the business this takes time!
Also you say that our magazine sounds like it like it will be rubbish compared to PWC How can you say that when you have no idea on content, layout or what products we are going to have for review. Who says Ionics wont be featured in the magazine true they have their own mag but your telling me that they would miss out on the chance to have their equipment reviewed up against their rivals in a publication that has no ties with any company. This goes for all suppliers if they have faith in their products then I cant see why they wouldn't. Their product could easily come out as the best (or worst). With regards to the comment that pwc has all the best products does it? Thats your opinion obviously you like Ionics equipment but thats just your opinion. And with regards to Ionics taking us to court if we are critical to them rubbish they cant sue for an opinion (i checked) With regards to the trial team what you don't realise tennent is I have the trial team in place and will be contacting them by email to confirm our schedule and when we expect the trial issue will be ready to look at. They have been chosen to represent a broad selection of potential readers.
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Ok, here is the reply to your post above TennetClean. Please READ it, and try to understand it. Oh, and try to google the words you have difficulty with...
...and will be decided by the editorial team / editor after we have sent for and recieved articles back from designated volunteer contributors..
"Editorial team" lol its just two blokes, I think you are letting this go to your head a bit. Delusions of grandeur spring to mind.
Why delusions of grandeur? We will be sending the final DESIGN to a TEAM of volunteers from this forum for them to CONSTRUCTIVELY critisise so we can make it appealing and eyecatching. So, DESIGN, TEAM, get it? Oh, an a dictionary defines 'team' as being more than one person attempting to achieve a common goal...team. So yes, we are a team. And anyone else who would like to join is welcome.
As we are at the basic design stage at the moment, if you have any experience of desk-top publishing, graphic design, typography etc please feel free to give us some pointers.
Its good that your honest but it also is evident that you dont know what you're doing.
Why does asking for assistance imply I don't know what I am doing? I simply want as many people as possible to have an input in the DESIGN stage.
Evidently you have not read the rest of this thread, or the big words scare you, but I have had 2 years experience in desktop publishing, design and print preparation for the David Winson Organisation, preparing magazines and journals for the Institute of Carpenters, Faculty of Building and other construction related organisations. So, once again you are wrong. I know exactly what I am doing...
A final mock issue may be available in a month or so with the finalised design, but again with nonsense articles to fill up space.
So its taking you a whole month to put together... 8 pages of jibberish text. So how long for the actual mag? 2 years?
TennentClean, everytime you put your fingers on a keyboard you demonstrate that you don't know what YOU are on about. A magazine requires a number of steps in order to become a reality...let me explain them to you..
1. Idea (lets create a magazine)
2. Feasablity Evaluation (who will buy it, what will it be about, is this interesting enough to get people buying it, what is the market, will it be worth doing? etc etc etc etc)
3. Financial Evaluation (will it need financing? costs? income projection, advertising rates, etc etc etc)
At this point, it is decided by the idea originator, publisher, future editorial team, financier, etc whether or not to commit time, energy and money into the project...
4. Design alpha (this is the first rough design of the magazine. It shows examples of fonts (letter styles) colours, layouts (using Jabberwoky, pleas egoogle it), possible placement of content, page styling, placement of page numbers etc... This is an internal design, meaning that the production team (currently jusy WCE and myself) would view it and make changes. If more people join this team, more people would get an input but as of yet nobody has commited THEIR time and effort to it...
5. Design beta. (last draft of the design, showing final choices of lours,fonts, sizes, placements of content pages and editorial information.) This is the stage at which it will be forwarded to the 'design team' (the team of people from the forum that will advise us on our design choices)
6. Design Final. this is the finished design, with all the aforementioned colours, fonts etc decided and set as a template.
Now the bit that DOES require input from potential readers...the content..
7. Theme. Each issue requires a major theme that will proivide the cover story and the major piece imediately after the contents page and on which the majority of editorial comment will be made. This theme will be decided by the editorial team (currently...WCE and myself, please see definition of team in a dictionary or wikipedia, although if anyone would like to assist, please do so...)
8. Article procurement. A register of volunteer article contributors is created at this point, providing sources for articles to match, compliment or contradict the theme. Other contributions such as letters, jokes, cartoons, etc are obtained in the same manner. Canvassing is carried out to obtain advertising customers.
8. Editing. The gathered, edited, spellchecked, grammarchecked articles are returned to their writers for their agreement of any changes that have been made.
9. Layout draft. The articles and other content are inserted into the allocated text boxes. Images are obtained to match the articles and inserted into image placeholders in the design agreed in stage 6. Once the magazine is filled, this is then sent to proofreaders (again, selected from the register of contributors) for checking.
9. Layout final. At this stage, the artwork for advertisements is put in place, and any changes made from the proofreaders. Final checks of continuity etc are made and printing marks added.
10. Proof. The final proof is sent to the printer, who produces 5 copies for us to check that what is printed is what we see on our PC screens. If this is ok, then we go to print.....So yes, the very first issue takes longer as there is all the designing to be done as well as the content side. I would personally estimate that June / July as the first printed copy, dependant on the speed that people get their articles in...
The articles will be inserted AFTER the trial team review the design and sign it off.
Trial Team? Sign it off? Lol, you are majorly getting carried away me thinks. How long before egos start to get n the way and people threaten to quit unless they get their own way blah blah. Its already happening.
Have you never heard of perception? When I speak to my customers, I refer to 'we' and 'us'. this gives the impression that the business is a little bigger than just a one-man-band and causes less snobbery in my experience. Sign it off is a term to say that the TEAM of people we chose to review the design, drafts etc are happy for us to proceed to the next stage. As for egos...can you please quote where any ego massaging or denting has occured? Or are YOU delusional?
To be continued...
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continuation from above...
Think it’s a great idea. But you need a real purpose for the magazine for it to be of any use, (and survive.) Without that what would it be?
Ionic has a purpose!
The purpose is to provide window cleaners with an independnt magazine that will address and inform about issues that are interesting, could impact upon our businesses, or that simply amuse, as is the case with the vast majority of magazines out there. We have a pretty small market to satisfy, and a pretty substantial subject to write about (everything from which rubber to use in the blade to business growth, to etc etc etc etc etc...). We also need to provide window cleaners with information on supliers, product tests, etc that are NON-BIAS (unlike the Ionics magazine you keep harping on about).
Ionics magazine only serves to sell Ionics systems...unless you know different. So it is simply an extension of their catalogue. I don't see them comparing their system in a crash test to a home-built system under the same conditions...I don't see them advertising other WFP systems in the 'magazine'
It has a great design and is professionally composed but it is simply a brochure for Ionics...
Ewan has made a good point. Support on the forum is all very well, but surely those people will go to THE FORUM for any info they want, why would they also read the same thing in a mag? SO far your only purpose seems to be to be a rival to the PWC magazine, rather than a motive of actally doing any good.
Do you buy newspapers? Why? You can turn on the TV any time you want and watch the news...
Do you buy magazines? Why? you can access the internet anytime you want and find out anything you want? what is the purpose of the magazines / newspapers you buy when you can get all their information elsewhere?
The motive is to be INDEPENDENT, to say when something is wrong, or bad as well as when something is good or great.
And finally...
From what I gather you are basically trying to do something so that it is not connected with ionics. Thats fine, but weather you like it or not they are the main wfp company and how seriously will you be taken if you have nothing about them at all? Something tells me they wont allow you to discuss their stuff and they dont need you as they have their own mag. Also if you criticise them you'll probably find yourself in court faster than you can say jack robinson.
Then god help us all, as the government is no doubt gonna send hit-squads after all of us who critisise them.
Don't talk wet you fool. You can make known preferences and factual critisism of ANYTHING without ending up in court. your ignorance astounds me considering how much you have to say for yourself...
As long as the magazine does not LIE about anything and simply presents the facts, nothing can be done. Have you never read a review of a product that says it is not a good product? do you ever hear Jeremy Clarkson slag of Vauxhalls? does he end up in trouble with the courts? No. why? Because he lives in the real world...
No offense, but just going by what you've already said this is shaping up to be rubishy in comparison to their mag that has all the best gear in it and does look like a pro job. And theirs is free so they dont have to make it pay.
Ok, I have trouble with this one, so help me out...
You say its already rubbishy. Ok. What ideas for the design have you put forward? Because thats the stage we are at...design evaluation, about number three on the list I wrote above. Have you yet seen any content? designs? etc etc? didn't think so.
If you can do better, please do. Because all you have done so far is bitch about an IDEA that is yet to take any sort of shape. Help or don't, I don't care, but please refrain from subjecting us to your pre-coffee drivel.
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And try to keep your replys to the single sylables you are used to. It took bloody ages to edit those posts above :D
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Check your email sanity! ;)
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I liked your reply Sanity. You are articulate and seem to know what you are talking about.
You explained some of what is involved very well, thank you for that, and possibly by setting it down this has helped you to clarify your own thoughts. However, it took a very well set out case by tennant to make you do so and I can't recall anywhere in his post him calling you names.
Your are wrong about the legal side, even your comment above saying that a certain magazine is biased towards one supplier could be construed as libel.Alex has had to take down various facts and figures that were on his site (correction he didn't have to but he did). And of course like it or not one company does supply the best eqiupment.
It's great to see that you do know what you are doing and also that you are passionate.I don't think too many are going to debate the layout, so we are back to content and purpose.
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I liked your reply Sanity. You are articulate and seem to know what you are talking about.
It's great to see that you do know what you are doing and also that you are passionate.I don't think too many are going to debate the layout, so we are back to content and purpose.
Today I have seen a sample of what he can do and I must say that he does know what he's talking about. Trust me the layout side is sorted!
Content - Yes plenty more debate on that (Article writers don't forget wce@sky.com for you submissions!)
Purpose - to provide an unbiased 100% independent magazine for window cleaners. I think thats reason enough.
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It is only libel if it is untrue...
Facts are facts.
I cannot be taken to court for saying one product is rubbish, because that is an opinion.
Why do you think a certain beer advertises itself as 'probably the best beer in the world' ? Because another beer company could take them to court to contest it if they said they were the best.
And thanky ou for your comments. They are very welcome.
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continuation from above...
Think it’s a great idea. But you need a real purpose for the magazine for it to be of any use, (and survive.) Without that what would it be?
Ionic has a purpose!
The purpose is to provide window cleaners with an independnt magazine that will address and inform about issues that are interesting, could impact upon our businesses, or that simply amuse, as is the case with the vast majority of magazines out there. We have a pretty small market to satisfy, and a pretty substantial subject to write about (everything from which rubber to use in the blade to business growth, to etc etc etc etc etc...). We also need to provide window cleaners with information on supliers, product tests, etc that are NON-BIAS (unlike the Ionics magazine you keep harping on about).
Ionics magazine only serves to sell Ionics systems...unless you know different. So it is simply an extension of their catalogue. I don't see them comparing their system in a crash test to a home-built system under the same conditions...I don't see them advertising other WFP systems in the 'magazine'
It has a great design and is professionally composed but it is simply a brochure for Ionics...
Generally all magazines are independent and they all have to be interesting, to the reader. Information that impacts our business is news, buy the time your magazine goes to print your article could be old news!
I don’t think you market is very small, quite a large industry in the UK with a lot of people involved and a large turnover of business and growing everyday (new mag).
I still think you need a definite purpose, even if only to be the voice for window cleaners and there suppliers. That would be a great achievement in itself, but it could still be taken further.
I only gave you the example of the Ionic, to show you what a single purpose can achieve. If you go ahead with your magazine you need to look beyond the fact that it is simply a brochure for Ionics. Can you create a brochure!
Ewan :)
for them to work they dont need a bochure for Ionics, I personally would sign up for a window cleaning mag as I know alot would that was based on facts and not influenced by a company that at the mo dominates from money throwing money at it.
sry Ionics no knocking you buy just saying what i feel is the truth
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So yes, we are a team. And anyone else who would like to join is welcome.
Thats great. Can I join please then?
I like the way you put your whole reply in bold, is that just in case I missed it?
...or the big words scare you...
...everytime you put your fingers on a keyboard you demonstrate that you don't know what YOU are on about...
...Or are YOU delusional?...
...Don't talk wet you fool...
...please refrain from subjecting us to your pre-coffee drivel...
...And try to keep your replys to the single sylables you are used to...
Could it be that actually you dont have much respect for humble window cleaners like me now that you consider yourself part of some "editorial team". I'm hurt.
considering that I am your target audience, you dont seem to be too bothered about winning me over. So far all you've done is hurl insult after insult at me, though I did not insult you, is this how you are going to handle criticism?
And as regards the legal side, you obviously havent seen how bigger companies use lawsuits to their advantage. Say you upset them, and they wanted to sue you, even though they knew they didnt have a case. They would still take you to court because they know you dont have any money. How would you pay for a defense? You couldnt. Just to get in the courtroom would cost you well over £10k, you'd have spent a shed load of cash before a single word was said in court.
But really, you wouldnt even get that far, you'd just apologise and agree to whatever they wanted. You'd never dare mention or even hint towards ionics again. And after that, would you have any spirit left to continue with the ever so amazing "shiner"? Probably not, because theres nothing to stop them doing it again. And thats even if you were in the right.
If you dont think big companies use their muscle to railroad little guys then you are just naeeve. I have seen it happen with my own eyes and lawyers are ruthless.
Yeah jeremy clarkson is one thing, he has the multimillion pound BBC to fight his corner if need be and of course every tiny thing he says about a company is looked over by a bbc lawyer first. Who is going to pay YOUR legal bills? What lawyer is going to look over YOUR amazing opinion about how good or bad systems are.
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purpose is getting really views and comments from real window cleaners also new company's not one sided like the PWC (sry I said that but IMO it is true)
Ian
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WW, Ian, I would sign for a year subscription, and I would hope they offer that to people on this forum to give it a chance of working.
My point about Ionic, it is just one company with an over the top brochure. They are trying to put a magazine together. I would like it to be good not just a list of suppliers and a few interesting articles. They need to attain something!
Ironically they would need to work with Ionic if not now, later!
Ewan :)
I personolly do not think why would need to work with Ionic at all, just IMO. but why would they have to if they had the backing from many companies doing the same, I think they dont need to.
Ian
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ht tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
Defamation, libel and slander are all legal terms for presenting harmful lies as factual truths. As long as we are truthful in our facts, and are clear about our opinions nobody can sue us for anything.
I really wish you would research these things TennetClean before you reply, because I hate having to do your research for you, or are you simply testing whether or not we know what we are doing and whether or not our level of knowledge about the subjects you query is sufficient for us to hold our own?
Any company, including Ionics, is welcome to advertise in The Shiner, as long as they provide artwork, pay the advertising fee comensurate with the size of the advert and the frequency of its publication. The worst a company can do when we express an opinion on their product, or present a factual account during a test that they disagree with is to pull their advert and try to hit us in the wallet.
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This is exactly what we hope to do Ewan. The main reason for independence of this magazine is to present an honest account of the products and services on offer from various suppliers. Magazines that have a close affiliation with certain suppliers cannot by definition provide an unbiased opinion or present a test that shows their product to be inferior to a competitors product.
We will present our findings, reviews, articles, tests etc in as unbiased way as possible because we will have no affiliation to any company other than the magazine.
We believe this to be the way forward for the magazine, and with 100,000 or more window cleaners in the UK alone, we hope that this unbiased information will assist us all in getting the best possible services, products and supplies for our businesses.
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Ian, Ionic are a part of the industry. They may have there bad points like a lot of companies. They also have done a lot for the industry, and for window cleaners. (like it or not window cleaners do buy there products)
One thing an independent magazine could do and should do is speak to all, otherwise it’s no different.
Ewan :)
Ewan, I am not slating Ionics, as I think there systemns are top notch, what i was saying is a mag that has others views an not bias views would be a good thing, the pwc mag is based and owned by (if I am right , I could be wrong) by Ionics.
if so a mag like that is no good really in this industry (as it is one sided), we are not all sheep and competition is good anywhere, something i guess Ionics maybe scared of.
but have to say there marketing is top notch and i respect that but also detest it (then money does have these traits)
Ian
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I would think that the majority of magazines need advertising money to keep afloat, I shouldn't think many if any will survive on subscriptions only. If this is the case with this magazine then already you have to watch what you say about any suppliers products. Every single supplier out there including Ionics will have a certain part of their system, or a certain product which is inferior to someone else's. By doing reviews every issue it is not going to be long before you upset all of them at least once, and where then is the money going to come from?
Or forget product reviews, what about Ettore for example has a full page ad every issue, and Joe bloggs writes a storey for the magazine about squeegee rubbers, and describes the flaws he has found in the Ettore rubber. Do you print it, or does it go in the bin?? Remembering it is a magazine from window cleaners, for window cleaners. And I know for a fact that if the storey went to print the very least Ettore would do is stop the advertising, as they threatened to do that on a certain website if I wrote any more about their rubber.
Peter
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I would think that the majority of magazines need advertising money to keep afloat, I shouldn't think many if any will survive on subscriptions only. If this is the case with this magazine then already you have to watch what you say about any suppliers products. Every single supplier out there including Ionics will have a certain part of their system, or a certain product which is inferior to someone else's. By doing reviews every issue it is not going to be long before you upset all of them at least once, and where then is the money going to come from?
Or forget product reviews, what about Ettore for example has a full page ad every issue, and Joe bloggs writes a storey for the magazine about squeegee rubbers, and describes the flaws he has found in the Ettore rubber. Do you print it, or does it go in the bin?? Remembering it is a magazine from window cleaners, for window cleaners. And I know for a fact that if the storey went to print the very least Ettore would do is stop the advertising, as they threatened to do that on a certain website if I wrote any more about their rubber.
Peter
Peter, That is a bit silly, how many times have you seen a motor writer in the newspaper slag off a new model of a car eg ford escort only to see ford advertising within the next couple of pages? Exactly loads of times. What it might actually do is make them look at the product they have and maybe encourage them to see if they can improve it.
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We are taking about a window cleaning Magazine here, and besides they won't have know about the write up until after they paid the money for the advertising. Seriously though how do you know what happened behind the scenes when a certain product got slagged off? And why did Ettore not sort out the problem with the rubber instead of throwing their weight about? I know for a fact they didn't. And what would you do with joe bloggs article?
Peter
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To be honest this is a difficult one to answer simply because I don't know what you said about the rubber. I think it depends what you put for example when PWC did the pole issue they said that they felt the Brodex pole was let down by a rather poor quality brush. There were no lawsuits or Brodex trying to throw their weight around if however PWC had said that the brush was rubbish and must of been built by a bunch of idiots who are unqualified then the outcome would more than likely be different. (no offence intended brodex). I think it depends on whats said and because I do not know what happened between Ettore and yourself means I cant really comment not knowing all the facts
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All I did was explain to people a fault that I had found with the rubber, how they could recognise if the fault was with the particular rubber they were using, and how they could overcome the fault if they wanted to, and told them how the fault was occurring during manufacture. I had maybe a year before this explained it to Ettore, told them what was going wrong in manufacturing, offered to prove what I was saying was genuine, but they weren't interested. For this they threatened to pull the plug on advertising money, or I shut up. I did keep quiet about it after that in the particular place I was talking about it, not for Ettore's sake, after all they could have fixed the problem, instead they lost most of their market share in the squeegee rubber market. I also didn't want to see someone else loosing quite a bit of money because of me.
Peter
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Cheers for that sanity, you did however fail to answer any of the arguments.
As long as we are truthful in our facts, and are clear about our opinions nobody can sue us for anything.
Truthful in your facts eh? as opposed to what - untruthful in your facts? lol a fact is a fact, it cant be truthful or untruthful. I see we're in for top quality english in the shiner.
But anyway, i dont think you understand. YOU may consider an article reasonable, but a company may consider it libelus. Even if they dont they may just want to shut you up by slapping a lawsuit on you. What i'm saying is, how are you going to defend that? Will you use your credit card that your paying for the mag on? I'd get a few more card applications in quick if I were you matey. Capital one are good.
The worst a company can do when we express an opinion on their product, or present a factual account during a test that they disagree with is to pull their advert
I think you may find that pulling their advert is probably the LEAST they will do not the worst.
LOL this should be good. Please do an article about crash testing and if it was tampered with or not in issue 1. ;D
peter is talking good sense here, i for one would be very interested to know how you would handle this situation. WOULD you print a product review that was critical to an advertiser and therefore lose the income, or would you just not print it. I think I know what the answer would be, and whoops! there goes the independence you hold so dear.
The fact is, the second you accept adverts from companys you are then NOT independent any more and open to accusations of bias.
Also, you didnt answer my question - can I join the team or not? You said anyone could join if they wanted. Or is it only open to an elite?
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I believe if worded correctly then any review would be printed. I don't believe that a supplier would have reason to pull their adverts. I used the example of the motoring section of a newspaper before but another example is that of TV. There have been countless instances where a product has been given a poor review but the makers continue to advertise on that station. In our local paper Tuesday is the day where we have the foodie section. The Restaurant that was reviewed last week was a long standing advertiser. The reviewer slated the place saying that the service was slow and in HIS opinion it could be improved. He described his starter as bland but said the main course was ok however, the desert was straight out of the 70's had been done before. In short he gave the place 3 stars out of 5 and said he needs to improve. This week they still have their advert in the paper and have in fact changed the wording to highlight the fact they have a new improved menu. They could of done what you said but they didn't why? Because the same restaurant also features regularly in the news section where they receive great publicity and they have also received great reviews in the readers reviews section. They know that you can't please everyone all of the time and like all companies worth their salt that there is always room for improvement and welcome all feedback good or bad
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I don't believe that a supplier would have reason to pull their adverts
No offense matey but peter has just given you a perfect example where it DID happen, of course theyd do that again LOL, any supplier i mean.
And to be honest its not rocket science, its pretty obvious that a supplier would do that LOL.
You are on about a national newspaper LOL that aint the same thing. This is a window cleaning mag, do you think they will lose all there sales if they dont advertise with you? LOL how have they managed to stay afloat so far I wonder.
sorry matey, but everybody knows that you cant be independent at the same time as taking suppliers money. You will be open to accusations of bias.
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I don't believe that a supplier would have reason to pull their adverts
No offense matey but peter has just given you a perfect example where it DID happen, of course theyd do that again LOL, any supplier i mean.
Not really, I explained previously I don't know what he said about Ettore so it is hard to say why they pulled their advert. If we had had a review which said that supplier x was crap, their products crap and just generally run them down with out explanation then I could fully understand them pulling advertising. If however a review mentions some shortcomings in a product but it written in a constructive manner then I really cant see their being a problem. Anyway one of the ideas we are considering is maybe having a review that is done by two separate reviewers a sort of two in one review. One could love a product, the other hate it. That would be interesting. What would the suppliers do then?
sorry matey, but everybody knows that you cant be independent at the same time as taking suppliers money. You will be open to accusations of bias.
There are millions of magazines large and small who are doing exactly what we aim to do and they all carry advertising and no one has ever accused them of bias. What about Which magazine. Anyway It's not just suppliers money we'll take anybodies money who wishes to advertise without exception!
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Like I said earlier we are talking about a window cleaning magazine, one that just happens to be starting up. Quite a bit different form a TV station. And yes the TV station advertising will be worth a lot of money to the particular advertiser, as well as the other way around. You won't have that luxury, in fact at first you will have to near enough give away advertising space, to get the advertisers to come on board. Remember in the first issue you will have only a handful of subscribers, and also that magazines usually give away magazines to encourage people to subscribe.
When you get a handful of people from here to subscribe where is all the rest of your subscribers going to come from? Are you going to give Mike a free advert in the magazine for recruiting from here? And what is going to happen when you review one of his products negatively, or someone writes an article saying that Cleaning Pro's is a far better forum? Do you think you may recruit subscriptions from an advert in the FED magazine? or from Ionics magazine?
I just feel after you only mentioned it 5 days ago you have not thought it through enough, and jumped in with your eyes closed, because a few people showed a bit of interest.
The only advice left for me to give if your interested, is slow down a bit and take a look from all angles. Give yourself a bit of time, to think it through properly, and if in a couple of weeks you still feel the same way, then go for it. I would also read all the posts on here again, and see if you can see some of them at least in a different light.
Peter
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I just thought of something Peter, You sell your own equipment. Would you advertise with us and put your products up for review? If you did and a review said that one of your products could be improved due to a particular shortcoming would you pull your advertising or would you take it as constructive criticism and look to improve the product. As with all your comments I am just interested to hear (or see!) what you would do.
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I did keep quiet about it after that in the particular place I was talking about it, not for Ettore's sake, after all they could have fixed the problem, instead they lost most of their market share in the squeegee rubber market.
Maybe they won't make the same mistake twice. Maybe if they had listened to you then they might of held on to their share of the market.
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Right Tennent, your comments are most welcome but I feel that you have no real idea on what goes into production of a magazine the mock up issue will take us a month because sanity will have to finalise the layout of the magazine. Once this has been done we will have the basic template that the articles and features will be inserted into and therefore the layout will only have to be set once. Therefore each issue after this will hopefully be turned around in a reasonable timescale. Please remember that we are doing this from scratch. You say that the mag has to look the business this takes time!
Also you say that our magazine sounds like it like it will be rubbish compared to PWC How can you say that when you have no idea on content, layout or what products we are going to have for review. Who says Ionics wont be featured in the magazine true they have their own mag but your telling me that they would miss out on the chance to have their equipment reviewed up against their rivals in a publication that has no ties with any company. This goes for all suppliers if they have faith in their products then I cant see why they wouldn't. Their product could easily come out as the best (or worst). With regards to the comment that pwc has all the best products does it? Thats your opinion obviously you like Ionics equipment but thats just your opinion. And with regards to Ionics taking us to court if we are critical to them rubbish they cant sue for an opinion (i checked) With regards to the trial team what you don't realise tennent is I have the trial team in place and will be contacting them by email to confirm our schedule and when we expect the trial issue will be ready to look at. They have been chosen to represent a broad selection of potential readers.
Ionics have shown in the past that they are unwilling to have their products lined up with others' in a truly independent test (Alex Gardiner's pole breaking strain test for one). That's not to say that Ionics' products are no good because like everything else on the market, they have their plusses and minuses. It's just that they prefer to do their own marketing. It was notable that when Philip Hanson ran various tests on poles in the PWC magazine, Ionics came out on top. Some reason was given as to why light carbon modular poles were excluded from the test (can't recall what it was now).
I believe that if you rang Ionics management and asked to independently review their products (and publish the results) in a fair comparison with the rest of the market, they would decline. I don't know if you actually need their permission to do this though but with their tendency to take legal action, you might be well advised to steer clear. Bear in mind that being right is not a guarantee of staving off financial difficulties in a court case.
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My last thoughts on the subject.The idea is not fully developed and the purpose is not clear. My solution;
Ditch the preconceptions about certain suppliers and advertisers.Get some clear minded people on board.Go for a brilliant- or at least the best that you can do mock issuAe- and by that i mean one with proper content.
Then when you've proved that you can do it to an acceptable standard without needlessly antagonising anyone and you have the basis of a winner pitch it to the CIU forum team.
Ask for the spic and span as the title, ask to do it as a joint venture, forum-directory-magazine- so that many people are involved.Obviously you would have to give away a lot of control, but this would get it on newsagants shelves and have a synergy that would meet many needs.
Spic an Span, a cleaning, business opps mag,with an existing forum link and allied brand leading business directory on newsagents shelves with a wider general interest so that at£1 an issue some of the public would buy.This would work, if you were up to it and you could convince the powers that be that they wouldn't be walking into a legal minefield and the quality and the good name of the spic and span brand was protected.
Only a suggestion.
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The only preconceptions about certain suppliers seem to be coming from people posting here, not from WCE or I... The Shiner will not have an affiliation, preferance or bias to any particular product or company, whether they advertise with us or not.
TennetClean, picking holes in my grammar now? Would you like me to go through your posts and pick out your grammatical and punctuation errors? Grow up and read my other posts... Oh, and sorry, although anyone can join the team, they must have something to bring other than critisism for the sake of it and sarcastic comments. This is not an ego thing (as you are bound to come out with (we know you so well...)) but one of quality. What can you do for the magazine? Feel free to send me your application and C.V. by email. Oh, and I assume you will be prepared to foot a pro-rata amount of the bills and costs incured in starting up this venture?
As for how the magazine would handle a legal case. Well, that is the magazines business, not the readers. Do you know how FHM would deal with a lawsuit? Or Fishermans Monthly for that matter? No? Then why does it concern you how The Shiner would deal with it?
Once again, please research and investigate your statements regarding 'what a company would or would not do'.
Yes you can be independant and take suppliers money. Independent means... (here we go again, having to provide basic information because...sod it, google the meaning if you want to know it.)
Basically we can and will take suppliers money for advertising and remain independent. Thousands of magazines do, what would make us different? We will advertise ANYONE and EVERYONE that wants to, whether we personally think their products are good or bad. All we can do is offer truth in our presentation of reviews, factual in our conclusions about products and our opinions will be presented in a way that makes it clear it is our opinion (and check, you cannot be sued for anything if it is clearly an opinion).
We already have a number of suppliers lined up wanting to buy advertising space, and this is even after we have directed them to this thread and they have read our comments about being independent. After all, if a supplier does not have the confidence in his product to withstand critisism or comparison then neither will the marketplace...
We are confident that we can make this work. While all comments etc are welcome, lest see if and when we write reviews whether any of the companies involved object to our conclusions.
If we are wrong a retraction / appology will be made. (again, once this is done you can't be sued, read the link regarding defamation. Ammends is a barrier to litigation :P ) If we are right, we will not crow about it we will simply present it in an informative and factual manner.
I hope that once all the posts from both myself and WCE are read they will clarify somewhat our position on our being independent. I also hope that the concerns regarding our being sured for libel, defamation or slander have also been allayed (we DO know what we are doing, really, honestly, truly...we have lookied into this in great depth, and have adcisors from the legal world...well, a couple of solicitor friends, one of whom specialises in libel / defamation cases and the other who specialises in legal documents and contracts)
Thanx for all the comments so far (good and bad) and may I on behalf of The Shiner say thank you to our supporters and thank you to our detractors (after all, you ARE forcing us to think hard about issues that we had perhaps thought were easier.)
The design alpha is almost done, so members of the design team will be recieving copies shortly , then it is on to the desigh beta. Maybe with some content, as our contributors are chomping at the bit to get their articles and features to us.
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My last thoughts on the subject.The idea is not fully developed and the purpose is not clear. My solution;
Ditch the preconceptions about certain suppliers and advertisers.Get some clear minded people on board.Go for a brilliant- or at least the best that you can do mock issuAe- and by that i mean one with proper content.
Then when you've proved that you can do it to an acceptable standard without needlessly antagonising anyone and you have the basis of a winner pitch it to the CIU forum team.
Ask for the spic and span as the title, ask to do it as a joint venture, forum-directory-magazine- so that many people are involved.Obviously you would have to give away a lot of control, but this would get it on newsagants shelves and have a synergy that would meet many needs.
Spic an Span, a cleaning, business opps mag,with an existing forum link and allied brand leading business directory on newsagents shelves with a wider general interest so that at£1 an issue some of the public would buy.This would work, if you were up to it and you could convince the powers that be that they wouldn't be walking into a legal minefield and the quality and the good name of the spic and span brand was protected.
Only a suggestion.
Or Spick and Span could launch their own magazine! How would this allow us to be independent if we were affiliated with a certain forum?
Please realise that during the design stages, you do not add content. As per my post above...Where I listed the steps required in order to develop a magazine from an idea to a printed proof...
Content is added at a much later stage, once the design and layout (column sizes, placements, image boxes etc etc etc etc etc) are finalised.
Even then, the final content can be added right up to the publishing deadline, depending on its importance (for example breaking news that affects ladder useage or water consumption for WFP as examples).
The magazine will not be produced by committee. The Sun is not made by its readers but by the Sun employees. The Fishermans Monthly is not made by the readers, rather by the editorial team and designers.. those publications are made FOR their readers, not by them. It is a bonus that this window cleaning magazine is being made by window cleaners. Our readers will hopefully contribute their knowledge and experience to the content of the magazine (which as we have stated numerous times we are not yet at a stage to put into it). Decisions regarding the design and editorial side of the production will be made by the editorial / design / advertising team. The same way EVERY other magazine is produced..
If anyone would like to be part of the team, either do something that progresses the idea / production (contact advertisers and secure spaces, write content, provide a column (daily life of a shiner for example with funny stories and examples of nutter customers), or contact myself or WCE with where you believe can fit in, what skills you offer and how much of your time and money you would be prepared to put into the first issue. After all, so far we have had a couple of donations and we are enormously grateful for this show of faith in the idea, but the majority of the time and costs have been shouldered by WCE and I (the design we have so far took over 10 hours. Who would like to recompence me for that time? Or WCE for his telephone bill contacting people for adverts and articles?)
The purpose of the magazine (as has been stated previously) is...
'To provide an independent, honest, factual, informative platform for the window cleaning fraternity to read about the latest products, learn about their business and issues surrounding it; to have products reviewed and trested in order to cut through the fog of advertising to the real facts to enable window cleaners to make informed choices about the equipment they buy for their business' ....Oh and to provide a good read :)
We don't know yet whether it will be sold on newsagents shelves (as this incurs even more costs of distrobution etc) or whether it will be subscription only to start with. This is something that needs to be discussed.
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Look, on it's own this just isn't good enough, the synergy I suggested might be, as well as bringing in a wider potential readership, being a 'new' idea because it would be a magazine with the back up of 'the worlds largest internet cleaning forum', and be a brand extension for the online directory- which in turn would also promote the magazine.
It's very unlikely though that you could meet the criteria required- or that anyone would want to enter into a partnership with you.As a stand alone business idea i think it's pretty good though, and perhaps Mike should look at going it alone.
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I just thought of something Peter, You sell your own equipment. Would you advertise with us and put your products up for review? If you did and a review said that one of your products could be improved due to a particular shortcoming would you pull your advertising or would you take it as constructive criticism and look to improve the product. As with all your comments I am just interested to hear (or see!) what you would do.
WCE, unfortunately everyone does not run their business the way I do, and it is impossible to answer as I have not seen the wording in the constructive criticism.
'To provide an independent, honest, factual, informative platform for the window cleaning fraternity to read about the latest products, learn about their business and issues surrounding it; to have products reviewed and trested in order to cut through the fog of advertising to the real facts to enable window cleaners to make informed choices about the equipment they buy for their business'
I would however be interested in finding out how the review process worked, who was doing the actual reviewing, and how it was reviewed. I would have to judge firstly how fair I perceived previous reviews, and compare the judgements on my own experience. If for example you done a review on the squeegee rubber, and the Ettore came out on top, then I would think that the magazine was a Mickey Mouse organisation and stay well clear.
Peter
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I just thought of something Peter, You sell your own equipment. Would you advertise with us and put your products up for review? If you did and a review said that one of your products could be improved due to a particular shortcoming would you pull your advertising or would you take it as constructive criticism and look to improve the product. As with all your comments I am just interested to hear (or see!) what you would do.
WCE, unfortunately everyone does not run their business the way I do, and it is impossible to answer as I have not seen the wording in the constructive criticism.
Peter
What I meant was would you take the feedback on your product seriously and look to improve the product or just get in a huff about it? I don't see how the wording has anything to do with my question. Talking generally which route would you take? I assume that you would at least look and see if there was a problem like suggested. I would imagine that most suppliers would do the same. What happened between Ettore and yourself, I would like to think that was the exception rather than the rule (Although if like you say they lost most of their market then maybe they have learned that you cannot ignore feedback) and that most if not all suppliers are interested in their products.
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Look, on it's own this just isn't good enough, the synergy I suggested might be, as well as bringing in a wider potential readership, being a 'new' idea because it would be a magazine with the back up of 'the worlds largest internet cleaning forum', and be a brand extension for the online directory- which in turn would also promote the magazine.
It's very unlikely though that you could meet the criteria required- or that anyone would want to enter into a partnership with you.As a stand alone business idea i think it's pretty good though, and perhaps Mike should look at going it alone.
Could you clarify just what it is you believe 'insn't good enough' ? You have yet to see any firm ideas, let alone any content so I think your comments are a little premature.
Why do you think it unlikely we could meet the criteria required to set up and publish a professional looking magazine with interesting articles and fair product reviews? You know very little about our past experiences in this field, so you are basing this on an assumtion of our capabilities and knowledge, and you know what assuming makes...
Again, why would we need partnership? I suggest you wait and see. To critisise and pick apart something that does not even exist yet, well that seems odd. The IDEA exists, but little else.
This is what many people, specifically TennetClean and Discount WindowCleaning seem to forget. The only thing that has been set in stone is.....NOTHING!
The IDEA of a magazine exists. The IDEA of an INDEPENDENT magazine exists. The IDEAS about the design and possible content catagories exists. Oh, and a rough draft of colour swatches and font samples as the first stage of the design process. A few emails exist discussing ideas...
Supposition, ill-informed reasoning, researchless conjecture and baseless presumption is not helpful to anyone, particularly the people putting in time, money and effort to attampt to bring this IDEA to fruition.
May I suggest that we see what the idea turns into before we start moaning and wailing that we might get sued, that we are not good enough etc etc etc...
I have an idea to turn into a magazine, so forgive me if I take no further part in this thread. Anything you feel you need to convey to me urgently about the magazine idea can be sent to me via either PM or email.
I will start another thread in a few weeks asking for ideas about what sort of articles, features, CONTENT people would like to see.
Thanx for all the input, favorable and not so favorable.
Regards
Sanity
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I'm sure you'll do a good job with the layout but the basic idea on it's own isn't strong enough to be more than a hobby..This thread has explored the idea, and you keep running up the same cul de sac. That's why you write or attempt a business plan, to see if it will work and what the flaws are.
This is not about winning any debate- or putting myself or tenant or you or wce in their place. It is about trying to shape an idea into something that might work. You are constantly taking a combative and defensive stance when none is required.
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What I meant was would you take the feedback on your product seriously and look to improve the product or just get in a huff about it? I don't see how the wording has anything to do with my question. Talking generally which route would you take? I assume that you would at least look and see if there was a problem like suggested. I would imagine that most suppliers would do the same. What happened between Ettore and yourself, I would like to think that was the exception rather than the rule (Although if like you say they lost most of their market then maybe they have learned that you cannot ignore feedback) and that most if not all suppliers are interested in their products.
Yes I know what you meant, and the answer was given in the way it was, in view of the fact that you told me in a previous post that you couldn't comment because you hadn't seen the wording, or words to that effect. If you want questions answered, you really have to answer questions asked.
Ettore acted in the way they did because of feedback they got from large USA window cleaning companies. They had handed out trial rubbers to these companies, and had got favorable feedback. I wondered why they got favorable feedback as I knew dam well the rubbers were not up to standard. I found out with a little investigation that one particular large company had a certain training policy to get the best out of the new recruits. The new recruits wiped the squeegee rubber after every window, like they were trained to do. It just so happens that the wiping solved the problem of the fault with the rubber. Ettore were happy, the large USA customer was happy, and it left the people who could use a squeegee properly, looking for a new rubber supplier.
You have convinced yourself it is the exception rather than the rule, whether it is or not.
Now take my new pole for instance, I was trying to keep my personal products out of this, but it is a good example. I had a chap on the phone this morning his name is James, (I think he uses this forum and may want to verify this) Anyway he was on looking for a replacement section for his pole he got last year. We got talking about the pole and he says when he first got it he though it was a waste of space, and now he thinks it's brilliant with a great time saving (the exact wording might not be right) James can't wait until the new version comes out and wants two of them in different sizes, as soon as they are available. Now if James had been one of the people doing a review on my new pole, then my pole would have had an undeservedly bad review, and in this case no I wouldn't be happy to see it in a magazine.
Peter
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i would gladly do reviews of stuff for the mag
if its good i will say so
if its poo, then i will let people know
if some1 sends me a " sweetener" thanks, but if you product is crap, its crap ;) ;)
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Sorry I was in a bit of a rush and missed a bit.
So in the situation above, my new pole has been reviewed, and the review has not been favorable, Now there is nothing wrong with the product, the reviewer just didn't know how to use it, what would you do in this situation? An apology wouldn't do me any good. Who is going to compensate for the loss of sales? And what part of the product would I fix to improve it?
Peter
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Dont over estimate the power of forums for drumming up business.
Forums are only a minute proportion of the window cleaning world.
You would be lucky to get more than 20 paying subscribers from them
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If you are refering that to me dave (subscriptions) i had in mind that the forum would be one selling point of the mag and not it's reader base because it would enjoy a wider readership than just us if it went the synergy route, and the advetisers would be the likes of Molly Maid etc .
The forum, mag, and directory would mutually support each other, with the forum being a good litmus paper and content provider.
What chance have we got though, reveiwers already hinting at sweetners, editors getting in fractious debates with suppliers, and tempermental back room staff- all before even a word has been written!
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What chance have we got though, reveiwers already hinting at sweetners
i guess this was me
me point being, you need some1 who will not be swayed by " sweeteners" , you only have to look on the forums to see the people who have been given stuff ( or stuff really cheap ) and then will not shut up how good certain suppliers are ( they then become fanboys ) thats not a dig at any1, but it does happen
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I wish Tucker & Ionics would give me sweeteners. I've paid full price everytime even though I plug certain products all the time, lol
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I was joking about you hinting at sweetners, You would make a very good reviewer, but I wouldn't allow you to descrfibe anything as crap. I would red pen your stuff so that you offended no one.
Where suppliers kit was mentioned they would read the copy beforehand and give the okay. In some cases the suppliers would supply the copy.
Say for example you did an interview with Craig. I would give him final sign off.
This is not likely to happen but it could work.
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I was joking about you hinting at sweetners, You would make a very good reviewer, but I wouldn't allow you to descrfibe anything as crap. I would red pen your stuff so that you offended no one.
Where suppliers kit was mentioned they would read the copy beforehand and give the okay. In some cases the suppliers would supply the copy.
Say for example you did an interview with Craig. I would give him final sign off.
This is not likely to happen but it could work.
What a load of rubbish, Suppliers read and approve the copy? Supply the copy themselves? That would make for a balanced independent read wouldn't it. I feel that you don't really understand the concept of our mag or you wouldn't come up with suggestions that compromise the whole idea of an independent magazine for window cleaners IE - join forces with spick & span and CIU or letting suppliers write their own reviews I mean that is just crazy! I did think you had made some interesting comments until you said this but now you've proved you don't know what your talking about. If you did you wouldn't of made such a silly comment as the one about suppliers. The only part you are right about there is the bit where you say it is not likely to happen - Correct. We will not let suppliers write their own reviews. Never!
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They are going to just love working with you.
How did you think these things work?
If you want to fill the mag with interesting stuff you have to meet people half way. A hatchet job from an unqaulified but opinionated non NUJ writer is not something lots of people are going to queue up for.
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They are going to just love working with you.
How did you think these things work?
If you want to fill the mag with interesting stuff you have to meet people half way. A hatchet job from an unqaulified but opinionated non NUJ writer is not something lots of people are going to queue up for.
ha ha , now we have you talking about my chopper :o :o :o i allways thought something was a little "strange" about you :P :P :P
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You are projecting Matt, but there is nothing wrong with a sense of humour, being able to laugh at oneself or general good humour. In fact as an editorial tone most people prefer it.
Matt editor of diywaterfed pole website as a contributor you could. 'add interest and value' of course.
Nearly forget. I've made another new invention- it auto collects the loose pole hose and stops you triping over it when you have the pole closed- it works in a similar way to how a vacuum cleaner collects electrical flex and is fixed by the tap.It's pretty good as a matter of fact. I was thinking I could flogg a few in the new magazine?
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You are projecting Matt, but there is nothing wrong with a sense of humour, being able to laugh at oneself or general good humour. In fact as an editorial tone most people prefer it.
Matt editor of diywaterfed pole website as a contributor you could. 'add interest and value' of course.
Nearly forget. I've made another new invention- it auto collects the loose pole hose and stops you triping over it when you have the pole closed- it works in a similar way to how a vacuum cleaner collects electrical flex and is fixed by the tap.It's pretty good as a matter of fact. I was thinking I could flogg a few in the new magazine?
why thank you :)
ive said it before, get over on the DIY site and share your idea's and what you have done
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There you go Discount, to save you having to look for it the whole story regarding the lost advertiser is here.
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Dont over estimate the power of forums for drumming up business.
Forums are only a minute proportion of the window cleaning world.
You would be lucky to get more than 20 paying subscribers from them
You reckon? I think the Freedom Trolley did well out of this forum; even though I think it's a bag of nails.
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Don't worry about Dave's comment Tosh he is wrong. I have a waiting list of more than 20 people who are waiting to subscribe to the Mag! I think you cannot underestimate the power of forums.
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Tosh
maybe the Trolley did well, but a lot dont, why do you think hardly any suppliers come here to promote there products anymore, Ionics, Brodex, concept20, windex, scrim city, and just about everyone else have all given up posting here, instead they market there goods in a way that is a lot more productive.
1 or 2 might make a few sales because of this site namely Alex and Andrew, but for the rest it is just too much hard work.
As for the 20 subscribers, a bird in the hand and all that.
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A fair point Dave, There are a lot of companies that don't come on here but there are also still loads that do. Have a look around the posts over a period of a few weeks and you'd be surprised how many suppliers do promote their wares on the various forums. I would under estimate the positive or negative effect on a business that a forum can have.