Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: alanwilson on April 02, 2008, 11:49:54 pm
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Just thought I would post some 6 monthly results for di resin life (from our own experiments)
Dowex - twin di vessel - 185900ltrs of pure (now coming out of vessel 2 @ 001ppm) - input from RO 005ppm (twin 4040)
Purolite - twin di vessel - 68550ltrs of pure (now @ 002ppm) - input from RO 007ppm (merlin)
Dowex has completely outperformed the purolite, Rohm and Haas was somewhere in between these 2 last year so Dowex still by far the better resin.
Next up is Tulsion and might try some Bayer resin from Alex Gardiner.
Can't see anything coming close to beating Dowex though.
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Yea, what exactly is Bayer resin, is it regen. or virgin? I've asked Alex several times, but he might have missed the email. :)
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I have just ordered some tulsion from Doug. So I will be interested to see how it performs.
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Yea, what exactly is Bayer resin, is it regen. or virgin? I've asked Alex several times, but he might have missed the email. :)
Must have missed it!
It is Virgin.
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Alan,
I'm just up the road from you so give us a bell when you want a bag of Tulsion, quite a few guys in Glasgow are using it now. From one bag a month they are now ordering every 2 - 3 months.
Would be interested to know as well how it performs against Dowex as from what your ouput figures it comes close to their spec. Tulsion spec is higher than Dowex so myself would like to know how it performs.
Cheers
Doug
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TULSION-MB-115-VIRGIN-MIXED-BED-RESIN-WINDOW-CLEANING_W0QQitemZ220213184744QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220213184744
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Alan,
Just did a quick output against Tulsion spec and I would expect around 250,000l from tds 005 , twin di, min.
And if you are the Alan Wilson from Glasgow way that everyone talks about then you will prob know me ;)
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Yea, what exactly is Bayer resin, is it regen. or virgin? I've asked Alex several times, but he might have missed the email. :)
Must have missed it!
It is Virgin.
That's very good to hear Alex! :)
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Just thought I would post some 6 monthly results for di resin life (from our own experiments)
Dowex - twin di vessel - 185900ltrs of pure (now coming out of vessel 2 @ 001ppm) - input from RO 005ppm (twin 4040)
Purolite - twin di vessel - 68550ltrs of pure (now @ 002ppm) - input from RO 007ppm (merlin)
Dowex has completely outperformed the purolite, Rohm and Haas was somewhere in between these 2 last year so Dowex still by far the better resin.
Next up is Tulsion and might try some Bayer resin from Alex Gardiner.
Can't see anything coming close to beating Dowex though.
Nice one Alan, i've been saying this for ages. as you know i've done my own tests & found the same. Where's FOXMAN? or DAVEMORRIS@STIVES? both won't have any of this. Ah well, you can lead a horse to water & all that :D
Tony
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DA - I'm from Braehead,
the Alan Wilson from Glasgow way? elaborate please? Where abouts do you work?
Macmac - hahahaha I know, but then again, maybe what works with our water might not work so well elsewhere. different contaminants etc. But yeah, it certainly seems Dowex is best by far. (and looks nice and golden and fluffy too!!)
Alan the pansy.
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Alan,
I work in Stirlingshire, and a few guys up your way I have delivered resin to.
Doug
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Doug
I'll be trying some tulsion next time round, shal i order from ebay or just contact you direct? (never ordered owt from ebay :-\)
Tony
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Hi Tony,
You could send us a cheque and once cleared will despatch the order, please make sure you order on your last fill of your di vessel to cover the time it takes for the cheque to clear and delivery time.
You can mail us through my website.
Cheers
Doug
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Used Tulsion resin only lasted half the time of Dowex
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Ned,
Very interesting did you get it off ebay, what is your user ID.
Just to confer with you.
Thanks
Doug
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macmac
I am here, what are you on about ?
One persons experiment, so that is the conclusion !!!!!
One has an higher tds input from a merlin, so not a true comparison.
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Lee have sent you an email, would appreciate a reply as I have specs for both products. Something is not right as others who have used it have had the results I expected so surprised why it did not work for you.
Would appreciate if you mail us back.
Many Thanks
Doug
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Doug got on ebay user name Lee7904
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Cheers Lee,
Have sent an email to "bricktop"
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Doug my email now is lkelly718btinternet,com cheers
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email sent, thanks
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Sorry Doug lkelly718@btinternet.com
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macmac
I am here, what are you on about ?
One persons experiment, so that is the conclusion !!!!!
One has an higher tds input from a merlin, so not a true comparison.
Yeah, of 002ppm, time to wise up dave ;)
Tony
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Still not conclusive ,the feed tds is 40 % lower on one system.
Also it doesnt state the size of the di vessils.
Until we have more info , thejury is still out.
I know of a good simple experiment a supplier etc could do for us.
Buy 1/2 a litre of each type of resin, leave the tap running and see how many ltrs of pure each type of resin produces.
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Still not conclusive ,the feed tds is 40 % lower on one system.
Also it doesnt state the size of the di vessils.
Until we have more info , thejury is still out.
I know of a good simple experiment a supplier etc could do for us.
Buy 1/2 a litre of each type of resin, leave the tap running and see how many ltrs of pure each type of resin produces.
Never trust a supplier mate, if you put your di's in your vans instead of pumping mains pressure through them, changed to dowex you'd see the light. why not? just on one van, you've nowt to lose apart from some face when you come back to tell me how good i am ;)
Tony
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Tony
Apart from anything i am more conserned with maximising my earnings rather than cost cutting at the moment.
Like i said earlier, no proof, I have tried every make of resin and not noticed any significant difference
I will never put di vessils in the van ever again, i keep things simple at work, tank, pump , pole nothing else.
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Tony
Apart from anything i am more conserned with maximising my earnings rather than cost cutting at the moment.
Like i said earlier, no proof, I have tried every make of resin and not noticed any significant difference
I will never put di vessils in the van ever again, i keep things simple at work, tank, pump , pole nothing else.
Then you can't be helped my friend, 2 di's in a van to half your resin costs, can't see a problem. I think even if i gave you proof you still wouldn't change your mind, it's seemed made up from the start. ;)
Tony
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Sorry Doug lkelly718@btinternet.com
Third time lucky I hope ;D
Cheers
Doug
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Still not conclusive ,the feed tds is 40 % lower on one system.
Also it doesnt state the size of the di vessils.
Until we have more info , thejury is still out.
I know of a good simple experiment a supplier etc could do for us.
Buy 1/2 a litre of each type of resin, leave the tap running and see how many ltrs of pure each type of resin produces.
Dave that would not work have tried it, volume vs flow rate. I would say 11l then you would find the result.
Your supplier should know that as well ;)
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Tony
I dont know what your on about really, obviously your view is correct even though there is no proof. your the one who needs help not me.
Doug
Why wont it work, is this not what everyone is trying to tell me, you cant have it both ways, if it lasts longer,then it last longer regardless of how you conduct the test.
Why not use a bigger volume and a slower flow rate ?
So you are telling us an experiment will only work over the course of say a few months ?
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p.s if you tried it , what were the results ?
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Dave,
Before I bought a pallet of Tulsion I asked the supplier to send me a sample which they did, I then bought a 750ml di vessel from Gardiners. That came with a R/O flow which they kindly changed FOC to tap flow.
When I put the resin in and turned the tap on the tds came out at around 010ppm, I then slowed the flow rate down at a trickle and it came out at 000ppm. The 750ml di vessel is only suitable for RO flow rate hence volume vs flow rate.
The next di vessel is the 1l which is also designed for slow flow which is RO.
For tap pressure turned down I would say min you would have to have is around 10l which would hopefully give you a full reading. This would produce from 1600l to 4800l on your TDS reading with each brand.
Out of interest how many litres do you produce from a bag of 25l , don't need to be exact.
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Just to clarify
2x19ltr di vessels at both RO's
I realise the output tds of the merlin is 40% higher than that of the 4040 but look at the figures, the dowex has lasted approx 3x that of purolite.
The costs are minimal - and results have been calculated per litre of resin x 25 to calculate for a bag.
All I'm saying is that resins differ in quality vastly. Anyone wishing to experiment with their own water samples then feel free to do so, as the chemical composition of resins are different to one another one resin may work better up here while down in the south east a different resin may outperform dowex.
For us the costs are minimal, having to replace a bag of resin every 20k ltrs ain't a problem, never mind 10x that! especially as for most of us 2ltrs=£1 earned or thereabouts.
Dave Morris - honestly mate, twin di in each van would still be very simple, save lots and lots of resin and guarantee quality water. If you are interested in maximising profits then you have to consider lowering expenditure. A penny saved is a penny earned.
DA - do you drive a white berlingo? I was talking to a guy months ago in a white berlingo, think he was called doug or dougie or something, at the airport (I was waiting to pick up a friend). Was that you? Moustachio!!
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Doug
I have no idea , roughly a month, wcw have records of how much resin i use.
i rotate 3 vessils, a fresh refil in an 18 ltre vessil, normally goes through 1 vessil at say 50 tds then a second one at 1 tds fist, the 50 and the 1 slowly creeping upover the month, i usually discard the 50 when it reches 100, by this time the 1 tds has reached about 30, the 0 staying 0 for about a week or 2.
When the 0 reaches 1 i fill the one thats reached 100 with fresh and that goes at the front again to start the cycle all over again.
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Alan,
Not me , do have a Moustachio!! ;D
Do you know a J Cairns and M Reid up your way. If not then there is another Wilson in the area.
If so then Martin will tell you about me.
Doug
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alan wilson where are you based.
I will not go back to di in the van, lost too much money with air locks, hoses popping off wasting tank loads of water. If a van is off the road because of an air lock atc then thats about £50 an hour lost until it gets fixed, not to mention the wages still to be paid in this time.
I must say it takes 1 hour to fill a van through the tap so that is 6 litres a min, which is only 3 times faster than a van pumping out 2 litres a min, so mine going through 3 di vessils is comparable to that.
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can't say I know them! must have been someone else I was talking to.
just got talking to him, asked him what he did and he said 'window cleaner' - 'snap'!!
the only other cleaners round here I have seen about are ATC, mind you a lot of our work is insides so wouldn't bump into that many.
dave morris, Braehead. If you set the thing up right, hardpipe the di vessels, then they'll never blow off. Do it your own way but I'm just saying you could be saving money instead of having to bring in more work to pay for it.
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There is such a fine line between money saved and simplicity and less hassle, say a van brings in £400 for the day , then £3.00 saved in resin seems immaterial. if there is any saving to be made at all.
Time is money and time spent messing about with di in the van is a no brainer, ask anyone who has di in the van how long they take each month tending to ther vessils, most people i know have hassle. ie flow rate fluctuating , pressure build up, air locks , leaks, with so many connections more chance of pop offs.
The trouble with hard pipe is the time involved undoing everything when its time for a resin change.
DI out is the only way for me
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Dave,
I hope they are giving you a good deal on their normal price of £69 + vat + delivery. Ouch!!!
This is the honest truth, I have 15 customers here in Scotland who have always used Purolite. A couple of big firms and they have all ordered again. If the product was not that good then they would not.
I have to confess Lee's statement has thrown me back which I need to look into.
8 customers with 2 man outfits per van went through a bag a month using Purolite as Alan W has shown . They are now ordering from me every 2.5 - 3 months.
Another fact is Purolite is suitable for Tropical fish, Tulsion is not as it is a stronger resin hence why I cannot advertise it for tropical fish as well otherwise there would be dead fish.
Window cleaning is a small percentage of the market so far and suppliers like Purolite will not change their product to suit us as other consumers use the product. Hence you will find a huge difference in some brands as it has only been designed to suit larger markets than window cleaning.
There is a huge difference and what I am also finding out di vessels also have an impact into resin life but that is ongoing trials.
Doug
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About reduced flow saving resin, they said the same thing on a promo page for the Varistream 2 :
By allowing controlled reduction of water flow through the system, the varistream 2 improves the life of the expensive resin cartridge, thus saving the operator money on a daily basis.
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Doug
GLAD YOU SAID ONGOING TRIAL sounds more realistic than trying to say shake your vessils etc.
If it produces more , it should do no matter how you use it.
I may try a bag to see if i notice the difference
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Dave,
Should have put this way, money they were spending one example.
Purolite - £1080 a year approx
Tulsion - £346 a year approx
Saving £734 a year approx
Alan,
Sorry , that's me jumping to conclusions
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Cqc
They mean the varistream can be turned down so you only pump 1.5 litres a minute instead of 4 litres a minute without one.
Thats where the resin saving is made, remembber williamsons just sell pumps and dont even warranty ther products.
What do they know about resin ?
Jack
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Wish i could really get my teeth into this one to support your claims, as i am going RO soon my experiments will take a hell of a lot longer
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Cqc
They mean the varistream can be turned down so you only pump 1.5 litres a minute instead of 4 litres a minute without one.
Thats where the resin saving is made, remembber williamsons just sell pumps and dont even warranty ther products.
What do they know about resin ?
Jack
well said
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Ask this question at Windex as have had a few window cleaner ask me for their help with their pumps. Their flow has been tank, pump, di vessel.
Williamsons reply the pump cannot handle the forcing the pressure through di vessels, hence the problems you have with the pumps.
Fact, the pump is not designed for the window cleaning industry. It will never as the window cleaning industry is a small percentage.
But fair dues to Williamsons they did look into to it hence the varistream.
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so whats the verdict on pumps then? Flojet or shurflo? Any other brands?
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Dont know but it is a poor show when williamsi=ons aim there products at wfp but wont honour the warranty if you use microbore, when the world and is dog are using it.
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so whats the verdict on pumps then? Flojet or shurflo? Any other brands?
Aquatec are trying to enter the market, think a few suppliers are trialing their products
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Dont know but it is a poor show when williamsi=ons aim there products at wfp but wont honour the warranty if you use microbore, when the world and is dog are using it.
very true again. trade description act states that a product must be fit for the purpose it was intended for!
where can I get one of these dogs?
DA - I've got 2 aquatec pumps (secondhand off ebay), haven't used them yet though.
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There is such a fine line between money saved and simplicity and less hassle, say a van brings in £400 for the day , then £3.00 saved in resin seems immaterial. if there is any saving to be made at all.
Time is money and time spent messing about with di in the van is a no brainer, ask anyone who has di in the van how long they take each month tending to ther vessils, most people i know have hassle. ie flow rate fluctuating , pressure build up, air locks , leaks, with so many connections more chance of pop offs.
The trouble with hard pipe is the time involved undoing everything when its time for a resin change.
DI out is the only way for me
Dave
I don't want to sound rude, you may have a good business but to be honest mate you haven't a clue about resin/di's, set ups etc. your remarks about vessel shaking & other things proove this. No wonder WCW arn't offering you any genuine advice when they're taking over a grand per year from you (can't blame them realy). As for DI's in vans, mine have been in 4 years & given me virtually no issues at all, i've certainley not lost any working time due to them being in the van. I can't understand why you have such a negative response to someone trying to help you, espesialy people who have absolutley nothing to gain from it. It's so easy to make the DI's air tight for a few quid & maybe 20 mins of your time! To get them to work perfectly, maintainence free is quite simple i can only assume your advisors/suppliers are extracting the urine from you or you are just not interested in listening to anyone. ;)
Tony
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Tony
You dont seem to listen as well, you cant get blood out of a stone, if there is no life left in the resin then there is no life left.
Where does the life come from.
If it is exhausted it is exhausted.
I am not negative one bit , i am a positive thinker and have an open mind.
As for not having di/ van issues , i suppose you dont have staff who seem to create problems or cant fix something that takes me or you 2 mins.
I think you are becoming rude young man and quite insulting.
It is a bit like the parrot sketch in monty python.
This parrot is dead, deceased , snuffed it , no life left.
Now go and annoy someone else
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Tony
You dont seem to listen as well, you cant get blood out of a stone, if there is no life left in the resin then there is no life left.
Where does the life come from.
If it is exhausted it is exhausted.
I am not negative one bit , i am a positive thinker and have an open mind.
As for not having di/ van issues , i suppose you dont have staff who seem to create problems or cant fix something that takes me or you 2 mins.
I think you are becoming rude young man and quite insulting.
It is a bit like the parrot sketch in monty python.
This parrot is dead, deceased , snuffed it , no life left.
Now go and annoy someone else
My point indeed.
Take your pick, for example
1. resin exhausted after 10000ltrs
or
2. resin exhausted after 25000ltrs
It's as simple as that, you are right, once it's gone it's gone BUT yours is going 2/3 times faster than ours. why? brand of resin + too high flow rate through it. I don't care what wcw or any white collar man says, theory is theory, proof is proof. ;)
Rude? me? :o david :P
Tony
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Tony
Where is the proof ?
Where is the conclusive test ?
One person conduted a test one with a 40-40 , and one with a merlin, the one that produced more had a 40% less input tds.
The merlin could let smaller or bigger particles through ? I dont know.
You can only compare like with like
Do you know how di actual works , do you know the science behind it.
It has gone because there is no more room left for the positive and negative charged particles to stick to the resin beads.
Where does the extra room on the beads come from ?
Maybe resin brands do make a difference but we needproper tests.
Still not answered the question , why does the test not work at a smaller scale as in 500ml vessils ?
Answer that one
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so whats the verdict on pumps then? Flojet or shurflo? Any other brands?
i have both these pumps and i think flojet is the better of the 2 .
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I ain't a scientist ;)
% isn't relevant here, it's only 2ppm! tap water will fluctuate more than this.
e.g. 1ppm & 2ppm is a 100% difference but only equates to 1ppm
100ppm & 200ppm is a 100% difference but equates to 100ppm
So both equasions differ by the same % but (what is important here) the input tds is 99ppm apart!
Alan wilson's test is a good indicator at what i already know, we're all the same, we want to produce 000ppm water as cheaply as we can but without added hassle & aggro. If you want scientific tests then you'll need to look elsewhere, i'm not THAT into saving you money. ;)
Tony
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so whats the verdict on pumps then? Flojet or shurflo? Any other brands?
i have both these pumps and i think flojet is the better of the 2 .
Shouldn't you be at wembley? :D
Tony