Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: U.S. wfp USER on December 11, 2007, 01:49:02 pm
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Has anyone installed one of these yourself?
Does it simply circulate the water in your tanks back and forth so that it heats it up?
Do they come with thermostats to set the temperature of the water?
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have you got a link?
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They are the same as erberspacher ones, and can be used as "on demand" heaters. I think they can be controlled thermostatically, but it all depends on the model you get, and if there's a stat to suit it.
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They are the same as erberspacher ones, and can be used as "on demand" heaters. I think they can be controlled thermostatically, but it all depends on the model you get, and if there's a stat to suit it.
Where have you seen info about them being used as 'on demand'?
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That info was on a narrow boat site,.. I'm not sure if they are meant to be used that way though,... I'd imagine that there would be a build-up of heat when you stop the water flow even if the flame cuts out straight away, the heat exchanger will still be hot. Perhaps some ingenious plumbing (a thermostatic mixer tap like is used on some showers) could fix that problem? Even if you used it to heat the entire tank, once its well insulated it should still be a very efficient heater.
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You can't run de-ionised water through a Webasto heater which is fitted to a vehicle's radiator because the radiator is filled with a percentage of antifreeze/summer coolant because otherwise the engine block would freeze and crack in very cold temperatures.
You can run the water from the webasto unit through the fitted coil of an indirect calorifier tank to heat the surrounding water stored in the calorifier tank and then circulate that around your baffled WFP tank by means of a 12 volt pump.
Ionics use a webasto unit but they pass deionised water through a stainless steel heat exchanger and it is stored in a holding tank which is a completely different setup to fitting a webasto heater into a vehicle (which is used to pre-warm an engine and cab prior to starting the engine).
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We are looking at possibly using it to recirculate pure water in a holding tank.
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I know your interests go a bit wider than most of us shawn, but I've got one of your china gizmos and it works great.
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You can't run de-ionised water through a Webasto heater which is fitted to a vehicle's radiator because the radiator is filled with a percentage of antifreeze/summer coolant because otherwise the engine block would freeze and crack in very cold temperatures.
You can run the water from the webasto unit through the fitted coil of an indirect calorifier tank to heat the surrounding water stored in the calorifier tank and then circulate that around your baffled WFP tank by means of a 12 volt pump.
Ionics use a webasto unit but they pass deionised water through a stainless steel heat exchanger and it is stored in a holding tank which is a completely different setup to fitting a webasto heater into a vehicle (which is used to pre-warm an engine and cab prior to starting the engine).
If you're going this route,.. a heat exchanger can be fitted to the engines cooling system that removes the excess heat from the engine and transfer's it to your tank,... it doesn't get as hot as a dedicated heater would get it,.. but it would be more than enough to stop any worries about freezing. I'd use this method in conjunction with an "on demand" heater though.
I'm currently waiting on a new propane powered heater being developed in the US which can be vehicle mounted,.. the manuf is working on getting it CE mark approved for sale in Europe at the moment. His current models retail for less that £100 (plus postage) but the new one will have a higher heat output, and improved venting system, so probably a bit more pricey.
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You can't run de-ionised water through a Webasto heater which is fitted to a vehicle's radiator because the radiator is filled with a percentage of antifreeze/summer coolant because otherwise the engine block would freeze and crack in very cold temperatures.
You can run the water from the webasto unit through the fitted coil of an indirect calorifier tank to heat the surrounding water stored in the calorifier tank and then circulate that around your baffled WFP tank by means of a 12 volt pump.
Ionics use a webasto unit but they pass deionised water through a stainless steel heat exchanger and it is stored in a holding tank which is a completely different setup to fitting a webasto heater into a vehicle (which is used to pre-warm an engine and cab prior to starting the engine).
If you're going this route,.. a heat exchanger can be fitted to the engines cooling system that removes the excess heat from the engine and transfer's it to your tank,... it doesn't get as hot as a dedicated heater would get it,.. but it would be more than enough to stop any worries about freezing. I'd use this method in conjunction with an "on demand" heater though.
I'm currently waiting on a new propane powered heater being developed in the US which can be vehicle mounted,.. the manuf is working on getting it CE mark approved for sale in Europe at the moment. His current models retail for less that £100 (plus postage) but the new one will have a higher heat output, and improved venting system, so probably a bit more pricey.
Who is the manufacturer?
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I know your interests go a bit wider than most of us shawn, but I've got one of your china gizmos and it works great.
Yes it does work quite well.
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Who is the manufacturer?
Don't know who manuf's them,.. I'm guessing they arrive from China just like everything else,... but this is the guy who's selling them in the US:
John Hurlbert
jhurlbert@ges-na.com
+1 843.875.4255 Office
+1 843.564.6104 US Skype
He has the L5 model on ebay, Its a propane powered camping/RV shower, but it can't be vented and doesn't have a CE mark.
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Who is the manufacturer?
Don't know who manuf's them,.. I'm guessing they arrive from China just like everything else,... but this is the guy who's selling them in the US:
John Hurlbert
jhurlbert@ges-na.com
+1 843.875.4255 Office
+1 843.564.6104 US Skype
He has the L5 model on ebay, Its a propane powered camping/RV shower, but it can't be vented and doesn't have a CE mark.
I see.
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I'm pretty sure that won't work Nathan.
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to use a webasto/erbespacher heater as an "on demand", plumb a Y after the pump with 1 line going through the heater, and the second going to the cold input on a thermostatic mixing valve like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270194475776&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=017
The output from the heater goes into the hot input, and the valve regulates the mixing.
You'd have to check what the minimum operational flow rate is on the heater though,.. it'd have to be fairly low to make this work!
That item would be a good safety device to have after any on demand heater,.. it could save your hose from melting should the thermostat on the heater malfunction.
Mr Solubility,... why not??? I thought you had a similar setup yourself?
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I was talking about your link to the camping thing. I have no webasto knowledge.
There has to be a flue. Mines flexible aluminium, some cut a hole in the roof. Even if it got the ce mark that would be for it's camping use. Sorry to butt in ad take this off topic.
Also it's dark and cold here (uk) 9pm and just run system to warm hose up for the night.
Took the opputunity to measure tds post outlet hose as have read about stainless steel being necessary.
Tds zero, no di ;D
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Here's the item:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Portable-Tankless-Hot-Water-Heater-Liquid-Propane_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ43998QQihZ019QQitemZ290188946024QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD2V
I do agree though,.. a flue is essential, leaving the back of the van open while I'm working is just not an option. The new one will have a flue though, whenever it's ready for sale.
Here's a similar one:
http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110187105930&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=110201074124&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=StoreCatToStoreCat&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget
This one can have a flue fitted easily,... but it actually kicks out too much heat IMO! There is a smaller version of it available, but that one is only rated to 72 PSI.
I'd prefer a diesel powered heater if I could get one for a comparable price,.. but they normally cost 5x what the gas powered ones do.
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Who is the manufacturer?
Don't know who manuf's them,.. I'm guessing they arrive from China just like everything else,... but this is the guy who's selling them in the US:
John Hurlbert
jhurlbert@ges-na.com
+1 843.875.4255 Office
+1 843.564.6104 US Skype
He has the L5 model on ebay, Its a propane powered camping/RV shower, but it can't be vented and doesn't have a CE mark.
Just went back through my records and this is who mine came from.
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What do you make of it? It's a product i've been looking at for a long time,.. but haven't heard much feedback about it!
I'm guessing its not perfect for the job, or you wouldn't be looking for a webasto one!!
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Realise you didn't ask me but why are so adamant about not having your back doors open?
Any hot system is worth the benefit even the high cost of ionics,concept but LPG running costs are much, much lower.
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Some of the commercial work I do is in an area where I'd always make sure the van is closed and locked, even if I'm only round the corner,....
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What do you make of it? It's a product i've been looking at for a long time,.. but haven't heard much feedback about it!
I'm guessing its not perfect for the job, or you wouldn't be looking for a webasto one!!
It works quite well, but Im not keen on carrying around the propane gas.
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I have to agree with you,.. from a safety point of view, diesel is far better.
The german ebay has a lot of these heaters,.. but the prices often get quite high by auction end.
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Well the on demand cheap unit that we talked about has busted.
One of the lines inside the unit burst.
I am looking to have a webasto fitted in the next few weeks. Estimated cost is $2500.00US with a built in Digital thermostat.
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I've noticed a few times it's carried on burning. Once the hose burst, other times i've caught it. More so when the gas is low or changed. I just assumed mine was a bit dim like it's dad.
How many weeks did you run it for?
There is another heater called infinity which is better quality.
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I'm looking into a dual source heating system.
Using a large twin coil calorifier, I'd use the excess heat from the engine to heat one coil, and an "on demand" heater to boost the temp through the other coil. The water would be heated far too hot for windows,.. but by using that thermostatic mixing valve I posted a link to earlier, it'd be easy to adjust the temp going down the minibore.
I just have to find a cheap calorifier tank now!!!
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I honestly don't understand this.
The on demand works great. Why complicate it with a calorififier?
The running costs are minimal, so there's no money to save.
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The calorifier would provide heat from the engine should I ever run out of gas half way through a job, and would mean that I'd have no worries about overheating/burst pipes should the on demand heater fail to shut down,.. something that seems to happen a lot with the cheap propane heaters.
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Won't work
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Won't work
another objective post ::) ::)
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;D
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I've seen a similar system in action,.. and it worked very well. The calorifier was smaller than the unit I'd choose,.. and was only a single coil, so only heated when the engine ran,... but 11 gallons of water heated in only a few minutes and would stay hot for 24 hours or more when not used,....
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http://www.arctic-fox.com/sitepages/pid44.php
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http://www.arctic-fox.com/sitepages/pid44.php
I'd imagine you'd need a much bigger coil in your tank for it to heat up fast enough,.. but its the right idea!
I saw this on ebay weeks ago which would do a slightly better job i'd imagine,.. but still not a big enough coil:
http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280181794130&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching
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Nathaniel
Why would it mean no need to worry about burst pressures if the heater failed to shut down?
If you are incorporating an on demand heater you run the same risks and you might as well let it do the lot.
Matt,
the reason we can't disscuss this more fully or post on the diy site is that there are safety issues. But what i've got works brilliantly.
Tennet Clean
I agree. Keep it simple. No way is water going to stay hot for a start, so only heating what you need with no pilot light makes far more sence. Diesel things are dirty smelly things with a whacking Tax burden
USA user,
Have you thought about an lpg conversion? They put a tank where your spare wheel is.
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I am not a fan of LP gas in my vehicle.
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Nathaniel
Why would it mean no need to worry about burst pressures if the heater failed to shut down?
If you are incorporating an on demand heater you run the same risks and you might as well let it do the lot.
Matt,
the reason we can't disscuss this more fully or post on the diy site is that there are safety issues. But what i've got works brilliantly.
Tennet Clean
I agree. Keep it simple. No way is water going to stay hot for a start, so only heating what you need with no pilot light makes far more sence. Diesel things are dirty smelly things with a whacking Tax burden
USA user,
Have you thought about an lpg conversion? They put a tank where your spare wheel is.
The on demand heater would be plumbed into the calorifier tank using heavy duty pipe that will never burst under the temps pressures involved here,.. no microbore until after the thermostatic mixer, so it eliminates the chance of burst pipes etc. There would of course be a pressure valve in the indirect circuit containing the heater, as a standard safety feature.
Depending on the tank you get, unused heated water will only drop 2 - 5 deg C in 24 hours,.. they are highly insulated tanks.
The Diesel heaters are clean and easy to run. They draw fuel from your main tank, but a secondary tank can be fitted and if you do this it is legal to run them on red diesel,.. saving even more money. What Tax burden would be involved in a diesel heater?
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i thought whether one of these could be used? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180191023921&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=008
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Red diesel okay, except you need a lovely 1000l tank where your missus would ideally like some garden. The tax burden is buying it at the pump.
The pressure valve you mention is probably the solution. Don't suppose you know where I can get one? what one looks like?
If the heater carries on with no flow nothing could withstand the pressure.
The system I use could be fitted working perfectly to your vehicle in fifteen minutes and completely bypassed in 15 seconds. You yourself did a post explaining the economics but I don't think you believe that it works. That's okay, i'm trying to filch ideas from others, not recruit people. Horse to water and all that.
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i thought whether one of these could be used? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180191023921&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=008
That'd be perfect for the job jonrob!
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Red diesel okay, except you need a lovely 1000l tank where your missus would ideally like some garden. The tax burden is buying it at the pump.
The pressure valve you mention is probably the solution. Don't suppose you know where I can get one? what one looks like?
If the heater carries on with no flow nothing could withstand the pressure.
The system I use could be fitted working perfectly to your vehicle in fifteen minutes and completely bypassed in 15 seconds. You yourself did a post explaining the economics but I don't think you believe that it works. That's okay, i'm trying to filch ideas from others, not recruit people. Horse to water and all that.
I can buy red diesel at the pump a few miles from me,... I'd just fill a 25 ltr drum and keep it in the shed. Any home heating oil distributor would sell it,.. or just ask the guys at a local building site of farm where they get theirs.
I'll do a search for a pressure valve,.. but I'm sure any local plumbing supplier would be able to supply one. If you have a 100 psi pump, get a 150 psi valve.
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This one maybe?:
http://cgi.ebay.ie/American-RV-replacement-Atwood-pressure-relief-valve_W0QQitemZ160190070218QQihZ006QQcategoryZ76066QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
It doesn't say what pressure tho,...
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i thought whether one of these could be used? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180191023921&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=008
That'd be perfect for the job jonrob!
Great, i thought it would - i was thinking of getting one for use in my van (when i get one) and the guy said it should be fine working for hours at a time, and doesnt take long to initially heat the water then it just runs on tick over very economic..
Il have a look out for another one as i didnt buy this one, but it seems it will do the job - youd have to run a pipe out for the exhaust. Do you know if it will run with a gravity fed tank for the red diesel? or does it need a pump to run them?
also it allready has an inbuilt pump - i think i would use the shurflo 100psi aswell though to feed the water to the unit, then into the hose.
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The diesel is pumped into the unit, gravity feed wouldn't provide enough pressure at the injector nozzle. It depends on the model, but switching over to the 100psi surflow pump shouldn't be hard to do.