Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: philboy on November 25, 2007, 06:56:52 pm
-
Hi, I have been using pure water for some years now; I still squeegee too but personally think WFP's are the best thing since sliced bread! My customers agree...most of them!!! I'm sure many of you will agree? But, put together all the window cleaners using pure water nationwide and it adds up to many thousands...if not millions of litres per week, in today’s ever changing environmental "crisis" the use of pure water is sure to become more and more controversial? Over the past couple of months I have heard three or four people say that there are plans to ban the use of pure water. (I should say that non of them were window cleaners) So I thought I'd ask my fellow professionals...I'd be interested to find out if this is fact or fiction? But either way, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this subject? I for one don't feel that using pure water is a waste! I am sensible with the amount of water I use when working, as I'm sure we all are, but window cleaning is a necessity and WFP’s are a big breakthrough as far as health and safety is concerned. When do humans become less valuable than water?
-
Toot toot ;D
read this
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=44849.0
-
I dont want to get too political, but what do you think? Our government doesnt really care about the environment do they! And they dont want a riot on their hands! Luke
-
Health and safety for reach and wash systems should be more of a headache with these systems than trad, tralling hose's everywhere, trip hazzards, theres no end to probs with that, Ive used reach and wash, and dont think much of it, nor my customers. Two men with ladders no hassle what so ever, (cant beat hands on) I do think reach and wash is far easier than trad, but stil think trad is here to stay, and the brooms will be banned. Loads of water being wasted, cant be good.. But apart from everything I here with regards to the arguements concerning both, to pour water on to brick work, no matter how careful you are month in month out, will over the course of years, cause expencive damage to the morter and bricks, so think about that one, coz I dont think many people do think about this issue, if its high, then theres lots of different ways to get to that height safely.
-
here we go again,im sure in the climate that we live far more water hits a building
in a heavy rainy day than i spray on in one year,i dont know how all the pre war buildings i clean are still standing, it must be a miracle ;)
-
Rain normally falls downwards ?. which in turn, falls on a roof, then a gutter. Not stright on to the brick work in such amounts, time will tell im sure. Good luck with your pre war buildings, hope they stay up for you :P
-
I use about 0.5-1 ltr per window, most of it falls to the floor and some goes on the wall. If I average that out that means 750ml of water per window, if half that hits the wall, then thats 375ml. If a window is cleaned 6 times a year thats 2.250ltrs per window on the wall a year. Thats hardly going to destroy a building is it?!!!! Luke
-
See your point Luke, but its just another bad point about reach and wash, Im sure both meothds will continue for a long long time to come, but still hold to hands on is far better for one or even two level houses.
-
Hi, I have been using pure water for some years now; I still squeegee too but personally think WFP's are the best thing since sliced bread! My customers agree...most of them!!! I'm sure many of you will agree? But, put together all the window cleaners using pure water nationwide and it adds up to many thousands...if not millions of litres per week, in today’s ever changing environmental "crisis" the use of pure water is sure to become more and more controversial? Over the past couple of months I have heard three or four people say that there are plans to ban the use of pure water. (I should say that non of them were window cleaners) So I thought I'd ask my fellow professionals...I'd be interested to find out if this is fact or fiction? But either way, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this subject? I for one don't feel that using pure water is a waste! I am sensible with the amount of water I use when working, as I'm sure we all are, but window cleaning is a necessity and WFP’s are a big breakthrough as far as health and safety is concerned. When do humans become less valuable than water?
we waste or should i say use alot less than the water companies waste.
The people telling you thins dont have a clue IMO what they are talking about, there are always people that think they no something when in fact they no nothing but think they do.
Ian
-
so your saying that the brick work on houses doesnt get wet in torrential rain and
add a high wind to it .my house must be an odd one out then been pouring down today
and the walls look pretty darn wet to me,
sorry i didnt notice some ones nicked me roof and the gutters ah!that would explain it :o
oh brother ::)
-
What water waste?
It rains, the rain water falls onto buildings, it then makes its way to the ground and its goes down to the water-table or to the water treatment stations which are run by the water companies. ( don't forget they don't make water they only purify it.)
A wfp user cleans windows with purified water which he gets from a rain barrel or kitchen tap, it then fall to the ground where it makes its way to the water table or water treatment stations.
Where is the waste?
A trad cleaner uses water with detergents, which need to be purified from the water so it can be used again by the water companies.
-
I dont agree sorry clevs. I thought the same thing about a year ago, that wfp wasnt as good as hands on but I find the exact opposite. Me and my dad are both neat freaks, we do a perfect job, we dont leave any bits on the frames, it is all rinsed a way. We find that wfp does a better job and quicker. By having water being spalshed all over a window it easily cleans it. I was actually predjudice towards wfp ( mostly because I didnt want to invest!! ) but it does do a better job, its one of those things that defies sense, that hands on is always better, because in this case it just inst true, Luke
-
No Gary, im saying it adds to it, thats all. Sorry to hear about your roof, know some people who could sort you out there, could take sometime low, they dont use ladders..... :-X
-
Your not going to get many supporters with this attitude clevs, it defies sense and the majority of peoples experience on here with wfp. Wfp is safe, wfp does a better job, wfp doesnt damage the environment, wfp doesnt damage brickwork, Luke
-
I found with some of my customers Luke, they dont like reach and wash, so I surpose diferent strokes for diferent folks, hey which ever way, its makes good money for both meothds, so happy days !!
-
See your point Luke, but its just another bad point about reach and wash, Im sure both meothds will continue for a long long time to come, but still hold to hands on is far better for one or even two level houses.
Have you tried wfp clevs? from your replies I guess not, I have been trad for many years and wfp winds hands down it leaves a better shine goes right into the corners where your finger cant, washes all the frames which would take ages to do trad, trust me done both, wfp rocks
-
It interesting that 2 of the top four posts are about banning wfp and banning ladders
Me , Im okay ive been drinking a lot of red bull so I have wings but I feel for the rest of you ;D
-
Clevs
The one thing you can't deny is that wfp cleaner earn more than ladder users.
-
Clevs might have a point over water usage - it would be interesting to hear what the major players think about it. People like Alex would be ruined overnight i would imagine. Mind you the rest of the post is not accurate. ;)
-
Worts case scenario:
There are 400,000 registered wc in the UK
If half use wfp which I doubt is true yet. And on avarge they use 300ltrs per day ( some have smaller tanks and some larger ) then that 60 million ltrs per day. Think about the amount used in factories, baths, toilets by 60 million people!!!!!! we are using a tiny proportion of the water! Luke
-
Clevs
The one thing you can't deny is that wfp cleaner earn more than ladder users.
at the mo I have to disagree with that, time will tell.
One thing that is a fact wfp is safer than ladders and that is a 100% bonus
-
man has messed up the earth so much that more use of water/ or trying to stop the use of water is not going to make any significant difference, and i cannot see it ever being banned, you could say the same thing for - littering for wasting food, for starving children in other countries, for wars, for violence, etc etc - none of these things are going to be stopped or prevented by man, as there is either too many people doing it allready, or the governments care more about money than stopping any of these things.
Banning pure water / use of lots of water is not going to work, there are simply too many millions of houses /properties everywhere for the government to prevent this, as everyone needs water.
Also not doing anything about it is not going to do any good either, there will probably be droughts and water shortages eventually and the government will probably just up the prices, which doesnt help anyone.
Again its just another thing which is not going to change, and if there are problems caused by it then too bad, too bad for everyone including me. The world is messed up allready.
Water doesnt ever get destroyed anyway, it allways cycles, so theres allways going to be enough water.
-
When did common sense ever stop a government from banning something? :-\
-
I can see the point the powers that be are trying to make. It's not wastage of water generally that they're on about. It's the wastage of water thats been treated for houshold use that they're concerned about.
In a drought, there's no shortage of water in general. We're surrounded by the stuff. The shortage is of treated water because the rivers that supply the reserviors where the water is stored before treating are at an extremely low level and therefore the reserviors get really low. Therefore treated water is more scarce. Hence the problem.
Don't get me wrong, I'm WFP and I really hope it's not banned during a hosepipe ban. The problem as I see it though, is in getting people in general not to waste it.
If I let the tap run whilst brushing my teeth or shaving for instance, I could use the water I waste to clean the top of an average house, and that's after I've filtered it. I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of liters are wasted like this every day.
-
but window cleaning is a necessity
When do humans become less valuable than water?
Beg to differ, window cleaning is a luxury service :)
and
Never :)
-
When householders are banned from using hosepipes, they're not going to be very happy to see window cleaners using them, it'd seem like one law for them and one law for us, and cause much resentment.
-
Surely the problem isn't the waste. We know the water companies have leaks that waste millions of litres. I think it is the perception of the public.
If window cleaners use 1000 litres a week each as an average (I have no idea if this might be right or not, I am not wfp) and Joe Public are not allowed to use their hosepipes, then public opinion might turn against us. If the government realises there is a perceived problem then they, rightly or wrongly, may act on it. Then we have a problem.
-
Don't forget that wfp users don't have to get their water from the tap.
It can come from rivers, canals or the sea.
If you tell the public that you are using sea water, how can they object?
-
Surely the problem isn't the waste. We know the water companies have leaks that waste millions of litres. I think it is the perception of the public.
If window cleaners use 1000 litres a week each as an average (I have no idea if this might be right or not, I am not wfp) and Joe Public are not allowed to use their hosepipes, then public opinion might turn against us. If the government realises there is a perceived problem then they, rightly or wrongly, may act on it. Then we have a problem.
the public opinion would only be for the ones that dont have a wfp window cleaner, this is are livelyhood at the end of the day, they dont need to use a hosepipe say to wash there own car is not going to lose there house and stop them from eating etc etc, I think they should ban joe public before business' if they stopped business after that then that should mean all business not just us, just think of a fizzy drink they use more water than we use.
-
I agree with you. But it isn't me you'd have to convince. ;)
-
An interesting set of points by all,
clevs, you seem to be against wfp and thats a fair opinion although it seems you use it and some of your customers dislike it, maybe the way its sold has a reason to do with it. (im not getting on to you just a thought)
water will over time erode most surfaces although there is not a scrap of eveidence to support that pure grade water damages surface on buildings as to date,
most buildings that show marks after water has run over the ledges on to the facade are painted finishes the reason for marking is normally the pure water cleaning the area although not fully.
will wfp disapear i doubt it but there needs to be some type of governing of water such as each window cleaning which works at height and purchases a wfp system should also be registered with their local water boards and councils and pay for the water they use.
I know some will moan but the cowboys will be ruined and the rest of the real window cleaners will be better off for it.
thoughts welcome.
regards, stuart
-
Don`t get me wrong i love WFP,but pure water can`t do damage,i`ll remember that the next time a WFP supplier tells me i need my new van speedlined LOL. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
An interesting set of points by all,
clevs, you seem to be against wfp and thats a fair opinion although it seems you use it and some of your customers dislike it, maybe the way its sold has a reason to do with it. (im not getting on to you just a thought)
water will over time erode most surfaces although there is not a scrap of eveidence to support that pure grade water damages surface on buildings as to date,
most buildings that show marks after water has run over the ledges on to the facade are painted finishes the reason for marking is normally the pure water cleaning the area although not fully.
will wfp disapear i doubt it but there needs to be some type of governing of water such as each window cleaning which works at height and purchases a wfp system should also be registered with their local water boards and councils and pay for the water they use.
I know some will moan but the cowboys will be ruined and the rest of the real window cleaners will be better off for it.
thoughts welcome.
regards, stuart
I'm on a water meter, so pay to every drop I use ;)
-
window washers,
exactly that you pay for it you splash it how you want
-
I dont view wfp as wasting water. It ALLOWS ME TO EARN AN INCOME which my customers are willing to pay for.
The rain comes to us on an endless cycle. Its not like Oil because once thats gone its gone.
How many water authorites have tapped into using seawater. None. Because they think it costs too much to purify.
Over the last10 yearsI cannot believe how many new propertys have been built where I live, Hundreds of thousands of new propertys. Lots more money for united utilites but not a single new resevoir has been built.
Last week a builder building an extention on his house not a mile away from where I live. Smashed a 24" main water pipe. It took 8 hours for the water company to switch the watersupply off.despite being informed straight away. THat was a total waste I dread to think how much water was lost.But the pressure of the water supply has been so low for 11 days now as they try to make up for what they have lost.
On another road they have had a leak for the last three weeks. There is a stream running down the road. No one been to fix it. So untill the water boards get their act together thet can take a running jump for all I care.
If my customers dont stop me wfp I will carry on regardless untill I see stand pipes in the street.
Nel.
-
Surely the problem isn't the waste. We know the water companies have leaks that waste millions of litres. I think it is the perception of the public.
If window cleaners use 1000 litres a week each as an average (I have no idea if this might be right or not, I am not wfp) and Joe Public are not allowed to use their hosepipes, then public opinion might turn against us. If the government realises there is a perceived problem then they, rightly or wrongly, may act on it. Then we have a problem.
We had a hosepipe ban down my way for quite a few months before they applied for a drought order. A few of my customers queried my usage of WFP though it seemed to be done in an inquiring manner rather than a resentful one. I informed them of two facts.
1. That it was permitted for me to use my equipment as it wasn't directly connected to the mains at the point of usage.
2. That they being banned from using a hosepipe meant that they could only water their plants by watering can or similar whereas me being banned from using one would probably make me bankrupt and homeless.
I would point out that the water companies had also noted those differences in effect on individuals which is why I was permitted to continue working.
-
Worts case scenario:
There are 400,000 registered wc in the UK
If half use wfp which I doubt is true yet. And on avarge they use 300ltrs per day ( some have smaller tanks and some larger ) then that 60 million ltrs per day. Think about the amount used in factories, baths, toilets by 60 million people!!!!!! we are using a tiny proportion of the water! Luke
toilets,baths,hostpitals,and many other industries large amounts of water usage is essential use,wfp for w/cs is not essential use therefore it will be banned in the forseable future what with all the green issues nowadays.
so i will stick with trad for the next few years and see what happens, i dont want to get used to wfp just to go back to ladders that would be a nightmare ;D ;D ;D.
-
i dont want to get used to wfp just to go back to ladders that would be a nightmare
so your admiting that wfp is better!! so if it was banned which it wont you could just forget window cleaning and be happy with all the extra money you had earned bacause you were wfp!! Luke
-
i dont want to get used to wfp just to go back to ladders that would be a nightmare
so your admiting that wfp is better!! so if it was banned which it wont you could just forget window cleaning and be happy with all the extra money you had earned bacause you were wfp!! Luke
i have used wfp in the past and it is good but i dont use it on my own work because most of it is domestic and personally i find it a pain in the rear with so many obstacles in the way also how can you say that it wont be banned when it is already a known fact that it is an unnessacery use of water especially on domestic work,a customer of a friend of mine said they could even prosecute the householder if found to be knowingly letting there window cleaner using a wfp on there property and if thats the case then businesses will soon follow because they cant do with huge fines,maybe you all should dust off your ladders because it will happen within 2-3 years :'(
-
i dont want to get used to wfp just to go back to ladders that would be a nightmare
so your admiting that wfp is better!! so if it was banned which it wont you could just forget window cleaning and be happy with all the extra money you had earned bacause you were wfp!! Luke
i have used wfp in the past and it is good but i dont use it on my own work because most of it is domestic and personally i find it a pain in the rear with so many obstacles in the way also how can you say that it wont be banned when it is already a known fact that it is an unnessacery use of water especially on domestic work,a customer of a friend of mine said they could even prosecute the householder if found to be knowingly letting there window cleaner using a wfp on there property and if thats the case then businesses will soon follow because they cant do with huge fines,maybe you all should dust off your ladders because it will happen within 2-3 years :'(
Tell me this,
I pump water from the sea (we have plenty of it, waste goes to water company (I do them a favour as it is cleaner than the water they provide me in my tap, I also pay for other water by meter not by year like the few that do (thats will change 100% for sure everyone will be on a meter apart from boar holes)
Why will they ban this ?, what needs to be done is the water companies that waste more than wfp cleaners use in a year from leaks ect, need to use the sea water and clean that (there is another of it , it is a known fact the wfp gives better results and is far less dangerous than using a ladder now my life is more improtant than water, this again is a fact that life is more important than water (if I am wrong tell me)
God I need to sleep as things like this normally dont get to me, but today.... is a very long day.
When or should I say if they ever try to ban it they will have to stand and say that water usage is more important than safety as this will be the main argument.
I think they should ban ladders :P
-
i dont want to get used to wfp just to go back to ladders that would be a nightmare
so your admiting that wfp is better!! so if it was banned which it wont you could just forget window cleaning and be happy with all the extra money you had earned bacause you were wfp!! Luke
i have used wfp in the past and it is good but i dont use it on my own work because most of it is domestic and personally i find it a pain in the rear with so many obstacles in the way also how can you say that it wont be banned when it is already a known fact that it is an unnessacery use of water especially on domestic work,a customer of a friend of mine said they could even prosecute the householder if found to be knowingly letting there window cleaner using a wfp on there property and if thats the case then businesses will soon follow because they cant do with huge fines,maybe you all should dust off your ladders because it will happen within 2-3 years :'(
Tell me this,
I pump water from the sea (we have plenty of it, waste goes to water company (I do them a favour as it is cleaner than the water they provide me in my tap, I also pay for other water by meter not by year like the few that do (thats will change 100% for sure everyone will be on a meter apart from boar holes)
Why will they ban this ?, what needs to be done is the water companies that waste more than wfp cleaners use in a year from leaks ect, need to use the sea water and clean that (there is another of it , it is a known fact the wfp gives better results and is far less dangerous than using a ladder now my life is more improtant than water, this again is a fact that life is more important than water (if I am wrong tell me)
God I need to sleep as things like this normally dont get to me, but today.... is a very long day.
When or should I say if they ever try to ban it they will have to stand and say that water usage is more important than safety as this will be the main argument.
I think they should ban ladders :P
two points to make.
1 your pure water that goes back to the water company still has to be treated with certain chems to put back all the things essential to human health i.e salt,flouride,antibacterial agents and so on.
2 if the water company tried to clean that much seawater it would be a false economy because setting up of prossesing plants,supplying the plants,distribution from the plants all would cost the taxpayer money-(me & you) the set up cost would not pay for many years to come so therefore it is not viable or we would have it already
lets hope they dont ban ladders because we we all be out of work when they ban wfp for domestic work.
also what about trip hazzards,poles that weigh over a certain amount at the top when fully extended on a windy day all are safety issues :P :P :o
-
i dont want to get used to wfp just to go back to ladders that would be a nightmare
so your admiting that wfp is better!! so if it was banned which it wont you could just forget window cleaning and be happy with all the extra money you had earned bacause you were wfp!! Luke
i have used wfp in the past and it is good but i dont use it on my own work because most of it is domestic and personally i find it a pain in the rear with so many obstacles in the way also how can you say that it wont be banned when it is already a known fact that it is an unnessacery use of water especially on domestic work,a customer of a friend of mine said they could even prosecute the householder if found to be knowingly letting there window cleaner using a wfp on there property and if thats the case then businesses will soon follow because they cant do with huge fines,maybe you all should dust off your ladders because it will happen within 2-3 years :'(
Tell me this,
I pump water from the sea (we have plenty of it, waste goes to water company (I do them a favour as it is cleaner than the water they provide me in my tap, I also pay for other water by meter not by year like the few that do (thats will change 100% for sure everyone will be on a meter apart from boar holes)
Why will they ban this ?, what needs to be done is the water companies that waste more than wfp cleaners use in a year from leaks ect, need to use the sea water and clean that (there is another of it , it is a known fact the wfp gives better results and is far less dangerous than using a ladder now my life is more improtant than water, this again is a fact that life is more important than water (if I am wrong tell me)
God I need to sleep as things like this normally dont get to me, but today.... is a very long day.
When or should I say if they ever try to ban it they will have to stand and say that water usage is more important than safety as this will be the main argument.
I think they should ban ladders :P
two points to make.
1 your pure water that goes back to the water company still has to be treated with certain chems to put back all the things essential to human health i.e salt,flouride,antibacterial agents and so on.
2 if the water company tried to clean that much seawater it would be a false economy because setting up of prossesing plants,supplying the plants,distribution from the plants all would cost the taxpayer money-(me & you) the set up cost would not pay for many years to come so therefore it is not viable or we would have it already
lets hope they dont ban ladders because we we all be out of work when they ban wfp for domestic work.
also what about trip hazzards,poles that weigh over a certain amount at the top when fully extended on a windy day all are safety issues :P :P :o
if they ban domestics as you say with wfp, what is going to happen to people that are 4 and 5 floors up ? cant use a ladder that high health and safety and all that, I cant see how they can ban something that is far far safer than ladders, oh by the way I used ladders for years and years doing trad it is dangerous, whoever you want to dress it up it is still more dangerous than wfp
-
also what about trip hazzards,poles that weigh over a certain amount at the top when fully extended on a windy day all are safety issues
Working at height is the biggest killer in the UK work force and for 10 years WFP has NOT killed one person
PLEASE a bit of perspective ::)
Andy
-
i dont want to get used to wfp just to go back to ladders that would be a nightmare
so your admiting that wfp is better!! so if it was banned which it wont you could just forget window cleaning and be happy with all the extra money you had earned bacause you were wfp!! Luke
i have used wfp in the past and it is good but i dont use it on my own work because most of it is domestic and personally i find it a pain in the rear with so many obstacles in the way also how can you say that it wont be banned when it is already a known fact that it is an unnessacery use of water especially on domestic work,a customer of a friend of mine said they could even prosecute the householder if found to be knowingly letting there window cleaner using a wfp on there property and if thats the case then businesses will soon follow because they cant do with huge fines,maybe you all should dust off your ladders because it will happen within 2-3 years :'(
Tell me this,
I pump water from the sea (we have plenty of it, waste goes to water company (I do them a favour as it is cleaner than the water they provide me in my tap, I also pay for other water by meter not by year like the few that do (thats will change 100% for sure everyone will be on a meter apart from boar holes)
Why will they ban this ?, what needs to be done is the water companies that waste more than wfp cleaners use in a year from leaks ect, need to use the sea water and clean that (there is another of it , it is a known fact the wfp gives better results and is far less dangerous than using a ladder now my life is more improtant than water, this again is a fact that life is more important than water (if I am wrong tell me)
God I need to sleep as things like this normally dont get to me, but today.... is a very long day.
When or should I say if they ever try to ban it they will have to stand and say that water usage is more important than safety as this will be the main argument.
I think they should ban ladders :P
two points to make.
1 your pure water that goes back to the water company still has to be treated with certain chems to put back all the things essential to human health i.e salt,flouride,antibacterial agents and so on.
2 if the water company tried to clean that much seawater it would be a false economy because setting up of prossesing plants,supplying the plants,distribution from the plants all would cost the taxpayer money-(me & you) the set up cost would not pay for many years to come so therefore it is not viable or we would have it already
lets hope they dont ban ladders because we we all be out of work when they ban wfp for domestic work.
also what about trip hazzards,poles that weigh over a certain amount at the top when fully extended on a windy day all are safety issues :P :P :o
if they ban domestics as you say with wfp, what is going to happen to people that are 4 and 5 floors up ? cant use a ladder that high health and safety and all that, I cant see how they can ban something that is far far safer than ladders, oh by the way I used ladders for years and years doing trad it is dangerous, whoever you want to dress it up it is still more dangerous than wfp
danger is not realy the issue here is it ? it was never mentioned before wfp came about, the issue is water wast and what the gov are going to do about it and in todays world they will do exactly as they please. ;)
-
also what about trip hazzards,poles that weigh over a certain amount at the top when fully extended on a windy day all are safety issues
Working at height is the biggest killer in the UK work force and for 10 years WFP has NOT killed one person
PLEASE a bit of perspective ::)
Andy
and how many were window cleaners and not used to using ladders in a competent manner,if you follow all guidelines on ladder use you should have no problems :)