Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: gordons on May 13, 2007, 10:33:14 pm

Title: Its time
Post by: gordons on May 13, 2007, 10:33:14 pm: I have read a lot of you guys saying that if someone else undercuts your prices or they just steal your customers you are angry about it and you think it is wrong. Well if that is the case sell your business now. You are not the right sort of person to run a business. Running your own business involves dealing with problems and your competition and if you cant handle someone stealing your customers you cant compete in the business world.
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: Mr. S on May 13, 2007, 10:38:32 pm: Come and undercut me then!

Couldnt really give a S***

If they want a cheap job ill give em a miss!

Its the underhandedness of other wcleaners i dont like! It doesnt happen often and i definately wont undercut!

My price is my price i dont bargain either!
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: NWH on May 13, 2007, 10:39:45 pm: Behave youself,this is a wind up i hope.Get your own customers.
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: brightnclean on May 13, 2007, 10:51:40 pm: I don't think it's a wind up.

It's gonna happen more and more as time goes on. Especially with the widespread use of WFP as to be honest there is not too much skill needed to use it and its a lot safer than using ladders.

Playing devils advocate here what's so different about window cleaning and other businesses? I get the cheapest gas, electricity, telephone, TV deals I can. The big supermarkets compete on price all the time and I bet most of us use them for the bulk of our shopping etc.

Like I've said before I never deliberately undercut anothe window cleaner but if a custy is happy with my price I will take them on. Lets face it its a competetive world and we need to work hard to make a success of our businesses.
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: gordons on May 13, 2007, 11:04:44 pm: Well said
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: NWH on May 13, 2007, 11:54:19 pm: Well said.
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: geefree on May 14, 2007, 01:27:12 am: yup, l agree , well said.

Now lets see, if i was a plumber and priced a job £200 and it would take me a day... and another guy undercut me at £180.... he may get the job ... ?? i may be upset

if i price a terraced house at £5... and a silly w/c trying to undercut me.. priced it at £3...... then he can have the job willingly, because i would not dream of coming down to that level of £2 to compete.

Now, is that what you mean by competition?.... we would all end up cleaning at £1 per house if we all agreed with undercutting and the industry would die a slow death.

so lets remember, yes its a business, if decent people let it be, and want it to thrive,

but undercutting means you will have to work much harder to earn a decent wage, thus your quality will drop, your standards have already dipped, and you will not be a very happy man., not to mention dragging yourself to the depth of despair because of your foolish ( or lack of)business sense,
Keep your prices at a level you and your family are comfortable with.

Set your standards high.

Respect your competitors.

But above all, respect yourself.

(unless of course you are happy with 50p per house.)
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: steve k on May 14, 2007, 07:19:45 am: Gordons...you are obviously a clown with no idea how to build a profitable business and you have come to the conclusion that the only way to get a round is to go round houses offering to clean them cheaper than whoever is doing them now...well silly old you :P

you need to go and work in a low paid job as an employee...probably minimum wage...you are certainly not cut out to be a businessman.

You are now officially:

The Lord Mayor of Cloud Cuckoo Land
[/b][/font]
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: matt on May 14, 2007, 08:33:50 am: Quote from: steve k on May 14, 2007, 07:19:45 am
Gordons...you are obviously a clown with no idea how to build a profitable business and you have come to the conclusion that the only way to get a round is to go round houses offering to clean them cheaper than whoever is doing them now...well silly old you :P

you need to go and work in a low paid job as an employee...probably minimum wage...you are certainly not cut out to be a businessman.

You are now officially:

The Lord Mayor of Cloud Cuckoo Land
[/b][/font]

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: Count Phil on May 14, 2007, 09:48:06 am: If there are loads of really cheap window cleaners, they end up quiting and not lasting, so there is room for the more expensive ones to sell themselves on long term regularity and quality.

Think of all the summer brigade types who quit. Sure, they may not find the work, but they probably don't charge enough to make it pay. Its ok for summer but who is going to stick it through winter for really cheap prices? Again, room for the more expensive. Don't worry too much about undercutting.
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: Paul Coleman on May 14, 2007, 10:14:41 am: Quote from: gordons on May 13, 2007, 10:33:14 pm
I have read a lot of you guys saying that if someone else undercuts your prices or they just steal your customers you are angry about it and you think it is wrong. Well if that is the case sell your business now. You are not the right sort of person to run a business. Running your own business involves dealing with problems and your competition and if you cant handle someone stealing your customers you cant compete in the business world.

Well obviously I would prefer that they didn't do it but when this has happened in the past, it's usually a customer that I'm glad to be rid of anyway.
A point that I would like to make as well is that there are ways of competing other than by low prices.
Take a job I got recently.
I went around to quote it. Quoted £16. The guy was quite up front about it. He told me that he had been given another quote that he was going with because the other guy charged less. No problem. Fair enough. I did point out that my quote also included the Velux window in the roof (which the other guy couldn't do as he had no WFP).
Anyway, I just took it as a "win some, lose some" situation.

About a week later the guy emailed me. He wasn't happy about the service he received elsewhere. Apparently the other guy upset his wife by breaking a plant pot and not owning up to it - plus there was the issue of the Velux.
Now the difference is that my attitude is more professional. If I cause damage, I own it and try to provide recompense - either with money or by going out and locating an identical pot (not always so easy).
He asked if I could start cleaning for him next time around which I agreed to.

Making good any damage by having a more professional attitude is also a way of competing.
Now when neighbours' converstions turn to window cleaners they are much more likely to refer to "the guy who broke my pot and didn't own up" than "the guy who works cheaply".
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: Paul Coleman on May 14, 2007, 10:17:19 am: Quote from: P bowen on May 14, 2007, 09:48:06 am
If there are loads of really cheap window cleaners, they end up quiting and not lasting, so there is room for the more expensive ones to sell themselves on long term regularity and quality.

That's right. I don't sell my business on pricing these days. I sell it on reliability and trustworthiness. I find that is is necessary to be a bit more price sensitive in the commercial sector but not nearly so much on domestic.
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: Helen on May 14, 2007, 12:40:37 pm: Undercutiing and offering your own price - different things ;) We have been down this subject before. If you offer your own price without knowledge of some others business this cannot be undercutting. If you ask the customer for the other businesses price before you offer your own and then deliberatley make yours lower, then yes you have undercut. But surely you would not lower your own pricing structure to achieve a lower price to get that customer! That is not good business in any respect. Again this comes down to knowledge of the local market prices, If they don't match your pricing structure then don't go there. Never never undervaluate your own services or you will eventually wind up with bad customers and non profitable business. ;D
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: M & C Window Cleaning on May 14, 2007, 03:04:02 pm: I've always gone by the maxim, "work up to a standard not down to a price." My existing customers know that, and I make a point of letting any new customers know it. As a result, for 25 years + I've worked alongside two other w/cleaners in the area, who have consistently charged almost half what I consisder our services to be worth and lost only a handful of my customers to them. However during the same time I have continued to pick up good work. One has now retired and the other has cut back on his work for health reasons. I have since picked up quite a bit of their work and all of the customers I picked up were more than happy to pay my fees. In one case the other guy had been so cheap the price difference was tripple what he had charged.
On the odd occasion when a prospective custy has questioned my prices I've reminded them of the amount of money many people spend on hobbies or habits. Then all of a sudden £6.50 - £12 once a month for their windows to be cleaned is put into perspective.
Why on earth someone would want to work long hours for a lower wage by udercutting someone elses work, when they have the skills to earn a much better income doing exactly the same thing beats me. Unless they just like the thrill of nicking someone else's livelyhood. But that doesn't make sense to me either.
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: matt on May 14, 2007, 07:17:22 pm: im sure i posted this, but hey, here goes again

Mr A has a job for 10 quid

Mr B arrives and says " i will beat your guys price "

homeowner lies, as she can see a fast one coming and says " its 9 quid "

Mr B says " no worries i will do it for 8 quid "

Mr B does the job for a while and Mr C knocks on the door

Mr C says " Awright love, im a window cleaner, do you want your windows done "

homeowner says " no thanks, i have 1 "

Mr C says " i will do it for less than your guy now, i need the work"

home owner thinks, this is great, i will get it even cheaper and once again tells a porkypie

homeowner says " i have it done for 7.50

Mr C says " thats ok love, we wil do it for 6.50"

Now as you can see, a 10 quid job is now 6.50
the only winner of the undercuttig game is the customers, they will end up getting the work done for next to nothing, this will just bring prices down
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: Alex Wingrove on May 14, 2007, 07:24:30 pm: NOPE, there is not winner.
Because mr c will do a rubbish job, customer will be upset maybe she will kill herself, because she cant see out of her windows now.
mr b now goes on to undercut some more and gets his work, but dies early from all the added stress of other window cleaners getting angry at him, maybe even stealing his scrims, which leads to scrim cloth healso dies.
Mr a well he is wise, he says stuff you customer, and goes a gets another 2 jobs and charges 15 instead, and then he goes and gets a wfp, and becomes a idle snob. and tells everyone he is great and loses all his friends becuase he goes on about it all the time.
Oh and mr c, he gets thrown in jail for benefit fraud.

so you really see there is no winner, just losers

SO DONT UNDERCUT, THINK OF THE CHILDREN
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: gordons on May 14, 2007, 08:07:51 pm: Matt and Steve K you are just jealous why should i go to minimum wage employment
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: matt on May 14, 2007, 08:31:49 pm: Quote from: gordons on May 14, 2007, 08:07:51 pm
Matt and Steve K you are just jealous why should i go to minimum wage employment

minimum wage employment, when i have mentioned that

i think any1 who undercuts to get work is a mug , but ive never mentioned "minimum wage employment"
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: matt on May 14, 2007, 08:33:38 pm: i see now, ive just read steves post about minimum wage employment

though to be honest, if you undercut and then undercut again, you will not be earning much more than the minimum wage employment
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: matt on May 14, 2007, 08:34:43 pm: oh and jealous is not the word i would use

i have a nice round of well priced houses, not a sign of undercutting, look at it this way, a undercut price is a cheaper price, i dont do cheap earning :)
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: tonyoliver on May 14, 2007, 08:44:47 pm: a honest moment here from me.
i have always undervalued the work i do. at first its becouse you are starting out then you underprice as thenew jobs are based on the old jobs and so on until like me i have a full round but make little money, compound this with never putting up my prices and i get poorer and poorer each year.
yet as a ladderman the risks are still the same as if i priced top end . myb expenses rocket but not my income.
i was stunned when a new wc put a card in my door and says he do my windows at 20 pounds when i would have quoted six.
i have wished i had seen this forum 20 years ago when i started out as i would now have a top paying job compareable to the risks involved .and could hold my head up high in any company.
i am now rebranding my bussiness and starting to put up prices and charge a proper rate for my new jobs at present i never get undercut as the prices are at 1988 rates .
yes i am a mug yes i am stupid yes i am making our job harder as the new custys base thir value on what we all have previously charged
i am sorry for letting my trade down and also for letting my familly down. no funds despite working six/seven days a week is dispiriting. my rock bottom was when i could not after a full weeks work afford a new pair of shoes for the little one. i am thanks to you all a new man with new sprit ,more energy more spunk as the ammericans say i am reborn and i thank you all .very liberating thank you
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: matt on May 14, 2007, 08:47:52 pm: Quote from: tonyoliver on May 14, 2007, 08:44:47 pm
a honest moment here from me.
i have always undervalued the work i do. at first its becouse you are starting out then you underprice as thenew jobs are based on the old jobs and so on until like me i have a full round but make little money, compound this with never putting up my prices and i get poorer and poorer each year.
yet as a ladderman the risks are still the same as if i priced top end . myb expenses rocket but not my income.
i was stunned when a new wc put a card in my door and says he do my windows at 20 pounds when i would have quoted six.
i have wished i had seen this forum 20 years ago when i started out as i would now have a top paying job compareable to the risks involved .and could hold my head up high in any company.
i am now rebranding my bussiness and starting to put up prices and charge a proper rate for my new jobs at present i never get undercut as the prices are at 1988 rates .
yes i am a mug yes i am stupid yes i am making our job harder as the new custys base thir value on what we all have previously charged
i am sorry for letting my trade down and also for letting my familly down. no funds despite working six/seven days a week is dispiriting. my rock bottom was when i could not after a full weeks work afford a new pair of shoes for the little one. i am thanks to you all a new man with new sprit ,more energy more spunk as the ammericans say i am reborn and i thank you all .very liberating thank you

good luck to you
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: tonyoliver on May 14, 2007, 08:52:59 pm: thanks matt
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: NWH on May 14, 2007, 09:01:43 pm: Tony surrey is a good area,get out there and make it pay mate.Head out to where it`s green and quiet.
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: EasyClean on May 14, 2007, 09:37:28 pm: This topic has been all about undercutting for work. I would also like to mention that if we don't put our prices up by 3-5% every 1-2 years then we are also undercutting ourselves short of a pay rise to keep up with the rate of inflation.
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: matt on May 14, 2007, 10:22:32 pm: Quote from: tonyoliver on May 14, 2007, 08:44:47 pm
a honest moment here from me.
i have always undervalued the work i do. at first its becouse you are starting out then you underprice as thenew jobs are based on the old jobs and so on until like me i have a full round but make little money, compound this with never putting up my prices and i get poorer and poorer each year.
yet as a ladderman the risks are still the same as if i priced top end . myb expenses rocket but not my income.
i was stunned when a new wc put a card in my door and says he do my windows at 20 pounds when i would have quoted six.
i have wished i had seen this forum 20 years ago when i started out as i would now have a top paying job compareable to the risks involved .and could hold my head up high in any company.
i am now rebranding my bussiness and starting to put up prices and charge a proper rate for my new jobs at present i never get undercut as the prices are at 1988 rates .
yes i am a mug yes i am stupid yes i am making our job harder as the new custys base thir value on what we all have previously charged
i am sorry for letting my trade down and also for letting my familly down. no funds despite working six/seven days a week is dispiriting. my rock bottom was when i could not after a full weeks work afford a new pair of shoes for the little one. i am thanks to you all a new man with new sprit ,more energy more spunk as the ammericans say i am reborn and i thank you all .very liberating thank you

tony, your not a mug, just some1 who whilst starting out priced up too cheap ( we have all done it ) and then kept the prices the same, didnt increase them ( many dont ) it all add's up to a round thats not erning its full potential

put you prices up a quid or 2 to start, this will help, then any new work that you price, price it well ( you havent the work to start, so nothing to lose if they say no, if they say yes, then your onto a winner with your new prices, when you have a bit of wel priced work, put your old un's up a little more, if you lose some, well you have your new work to cover it

as i said in my last post

good luck :)
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: Paul Coleman on May 14, 2007, 10:34:31 pm: Quote from: tonyoliver on May 14, 2007, 08:44:47 pm
a honest moment here from me.
i have always undervalued the work i do. at first its becouse you are starting out then you underprice as thenew jobs are based on the old jobs and so on until like me i have a full round but make little money, compound this with never putting up my prices and i get poorer and poorer each year.
yet as a ladderman the risks are still the same as if i priced top end . myb expenses rocket but not my income.
i was stunned when a new wc put a card in my door and says he do my windows at 20 pounds when i would have quoted six.
i have wished i had seen this forum 20 years ago when i started out as i would now have a top paying job compareable to the risks involved .and could hold my head up high in any company.
i am now rebranding my bussiness and starting to put up prices and charge a proper rate for my new jobs at present i never get undercut as the prices are at 1988 rates .
yes i am a mug yes i am stupid yes i am making our job harder as the new custys base thir value on what we all have previously charged
i am sorry for letting my trade down and also for letting my familly down. no funds despite working six/seven days a week is dispiriting. my rock bottom was when i could not after a full weeks work afford a new pair of shoes for the little one. i am thanks to you all a new man with new sprit ,more energy more spunk as the ammericans say i am reborn and i thank you all .very liberating thank you

Tony. It sounds like you have arrived at the point where I was a couple of years ago or so. I think a lot of it was about how I saw myself. If I didn't value myself sufficiently as a human being, then I wasn't going to ask enough fore my labours. This forum has been just brilliant for me too.
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: macmac on May 14, 2007, 10:58:35 pm: Gordons
I see you've made a mistake in your profile, you've accidently put a 2 in front of the 3 ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: steve k on May 15, 2007, 06:51:59 am: Gordons...you must be heading towards minimum wage if you are in the arena of undercutting...

Jealous... ??? of what exactly?

if you are struggling for work come on down to Liverpool and I will gladly pay you £10 a hour to clean the windows on my round...while I sit back and enjoy a lucrative retirement...but then again could I trust you not to "steal" my customers...probably not...so you`re sacked ;D ;D
Title: Re: Its time
Post by: tonyoliver on May 15, 2007, 09:08:31 pm: thanks shiner for the moral support i will be putting something back into the community
20 years exp i am glad you made a change too as i love my job i know an accountant who swears he will scream if he sees another bit of paper or a client who admits to the i.r that he hides his undeclared under the matress!!
yet people at this moment dream of becoming accountants
i want to stay as a wc i have made a small niche for my self in this tough little bussines now i want it to pay better so thank you all again it is good to know your not alone.