Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: DASERVICES on March 29, 2007, 06:41:10 pm
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Having been in the window cleaning industry for some years now it has opened my eyes as to how prices have been stagnant for many years. In any other industry you can earn a decent wage as well as saving up for that new van you want in 3 yrs. The biggest draw back in charging what you are worth is the fear of being under cut by you know who.
If you did not have that risk what prices would you like to charge and how much would you like to earn as a sole trader. Mine would be for domestic only :-
£20,000 for working 3 days a week
£6 min charge
£10 for a 3 bed house.
Doug
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Mmm I think there is a difference between what you would like to earn and what you actually earn.
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I would worry bout being undercut, if you do a good job inc frames and all the other bollics let them know and sell your self as the best thing ever then when a new bloke comes they will be NO NO NO before they even ask.
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Put your prices up mate! I charge double what most window cleaners charge in my area, and treble what some of them charge, but I hardly ever lose customers to the cheaper cleaners, in fact I reguarly get their customers wanting me to clean their windows. Why? because I do a great job, I am reliable, friendly and proffessional, I also get recommended to people from my existing customers. £10 for a 3 bed house sounds cheap to me, anyhow you should charge on how many windows the house has, not how many bedrooms. Minimum £1 per window, more if they are large, leaded or georgian.
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Groundhog
How do you charge for a stone bay with 3 windows and for a single 'straight' frame (e,g, picture window) with 3 panes of glass in it? The same or differently?
Cheers.
Mike
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£20000 a year for 3 days is about right for my area.
Your prices sound same as mine mate.
At the end of the day £20000 is less than £140 a day over 48 weeks.
If you average £25 an hour thats less than 6 hours per day for 3 days a week.
What a great life we have. :)
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Depends how big it was, but I would probably charge £2.50. I always charge as high as I think I can get away with, as if they say it is too expensive, you can always lower the price a bit. But it is really annoying when you price a job and the customer says 'that is a lot less than I thought it would be'! you can't then put the price up as it is too late!!
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Pricing is so important in our job,get it wrong and you hate doing it.Any new work that comes in gets a big price if they want it it`s a bonus if not oh well next.
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Customer: So how much?
Me: £13
Customer: Gosh that sounds cheap
Bugger :(
Then the next door neighbour comes out.
Neighbour: How much do you charge?
Me (through gritted teeth) £13
Neighbour: When can you do them?
So now 2 new jobs that are underpriced...or more accurately where I could have got away with a bit more.
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SIMON
I think your forgetting that you are the boss and you decide if you want to clean for that price.
If I was you I would have cleaned the job tell them you made a mistake with your pricing and it will be x amount from now on as it takes longer than you first thought. They will have a chance to see how good your work is and probably keep you on. You got to be firm mate your the boss.
I did this with a flat today inside out £30, took bit longer than I thought cos she had stuff in the way. I said to the lady at the end of the job that I underpriced it slightly it will be £40 from next month and she said fine !! cos she could see how good we was.
Rob
Ps sorry boys didn't mean to jack the post
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Rob, I think £13 is probably about the right price for the job...it's just that I could have said £16 or £18 and still got it.
Like you if I find that I've massively under-quoted eg: I reckon it's gonna take 45 mins and it turns out to be twice that I always explain to the customer that this time I'll do it for what I've priced it at but next time it'll have to be more. I find that most happily accept this and to the few that don't it's aufweidersehn pet.
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If you did not have that risk what prices would you like to charge and how much would you like to earn as a sole trader. Mine would be for domestic only :-
£20,000 for working 3 days a week
£6 min charge
£10 for a 3 bed house.
Doug
Well, some may say i'm being greedy but,
£40k for working 20 days per month(3 weeks domesic and 4 and half days commercial)
Dont care about min charge as long as i achieve that target
Obviously untill im full there will be a bit of underpricing but once im busting with work this will either recieve a price hike or replace with better priced new work.
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'that is a lot less than I thought it would be'! you can't then put the price up as it is too late!!
All you say is 'and for the frames and sills it will be £a bit more.00'
as you do them anyway your really charging more and the customer thinks its an extra worth having!
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Another one is to quote VERY high and if they query too much say "...and that's for the first clean which takes longer but for subsequent maintenance cleans it will cost £xx"
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I wish I was hard and ruthless and could charge what I want to charge. The trouble is my mouth lets me down. I go in thinking " fifteen quit, I'm gonna tell her fifteen" Then when I get to it my stupid mouth blurts out twelve. I think there must be a medical name for it - Pratt Syndrome perhaps.
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I wish I was hard and ruthless and could charge what I want to charge. The trouble is my mouth lets me down. I go in thinking " fifteen quit, I'm gonna tell her fifteen" Then when I get to it my stupid mouth blurts out twelve. I think there must be a medical name for it - Pratt Syndrome perhaps.
No way. You are definitely the first ever sufferer :)
Vincentitis it should be called :)
I have done this before too though. I can still do it but the number that comes out is now higher than the one in my head.
It's known as shineritis.
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I wish I suffered more from 'Shineritis'....more often I seem to have an attack of Vincentitis :-\
I have got better now though, I'm in remission most of the time 8)
But how much should I be worth??
Well a year or two ago my target was 25k, I consistantly wanted to clear £500 per week, and by that I mean my wage and not my business turnover..there is a big difference.
Since Christmas I have (so far) probably acheived that target.
And that's with all the business costs taken out, van lease, fuel, running WFP system and so on.
Don't kid yourself that your daily turnover is your wage...it ain't, so, so many make this basic mistake.
You want to know what what you are really earning (as a business, not income) then look at your tax return, that's the bottom line.
Just because you can go out and, say...knock out 4 semi's in an hour, and you are charging a tenner per semi does not mean you are earning £40 an hour.
It is no use living in the 'NOW' as it just does not give you true perspective.
Not that it is easy to explain to the customer who looks at her watch as she hands you £12 and says something like, "Blimey! You didn't take 10 minutes on my house, you must be raking it in!"
You probably took 15 or 20 minutes, but it will have felt like no time at all to her, and if you turn around and try and tell her you are earning nothing like £60 an hour she'll just give you one of those, "Yeah..righ >:(" looks :-\
And of course you also FEEL the same as her don't you? On that single house it actually FEELS like you are earning top money.
And on the many other houses that are exactly the same, you still FEEL that way don't you...
But then at the end of the year you stick in your tax return and instead of £40,000 your return is a more modest £18,000...
But you are supposed to be earning at least £25.00 an hour, you KNOW you are, you can knock out 3 house an hour at a tenner a pop comfortably, and you can do it all day long too...if you want to that is...
And you scratch your head in perplexity, why, every day I go out I top above a ton in turnover every time >:(
Few of us truly understand business, we are just ordinary blokes, who, if not out there cleaning windows we would probably be driving a van or delivering mail, or putting out fires....
Acheiving a top income is more than possible with window cleaning, and some out there are earning top level incomes, they are organised and professional and they UNDERSTAND business!!!
If you think you think you are worth 20k a year then you are going to need to be banking at least 25k a year...at LEAST!
It's no use whatsoever looking at what you turned over today, you have to look back and see what you've turned over in the last 12 months, and when you've done that, take off the running costs of your business.
And don't forget, your business also needs money left in for investment, upgrading your equipment, replacing your vehicle every 3 to 5 years and so on.
Take away that and then see what you are left with, and THATS your income.
Sleep easy children...
Ian
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Spot on Ian ;)
Think about this fellas, if it costs you £5000 a year to run your business thats including disiel, wear and tear on van and equipment, new poles, water production etc that works out at £416 a month divide that by the average 200 customer round and it will cost £2.08 per customer.
So the aveage ten pound customer minus tax and running costs = £6.17 :o :o Were's the big money in that then? were's the wage? some customers dont understand what we need to earn to stay in business!!
ProPole
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Good post Ian.
There are plenty of customers who understand the position we are in but there are plenty who think we can work for peanuts & remain in buisness.
Over the last year i have really stuck to my guns on my pricing & dont negotiate, my price is my price & i have seen a increase in my turnover & profit i like.
Ok, a few say no thanks but most still say yes, so i'm happy.
ProPole, nice calm post that makes sense, keep it up ;D
Macc
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I agree with most of you! If you turnover 40k for example, i would say that 10k of that would be overheads, 20k wage, and 10k reinvestment or cashflow. Also how many one man operators can achieve this? including down time and holidays?
So to achieve this figure i would expect to work 4-4.5 days a week 6-7hr days. Your hourly rate is always going to fluctuate, with a a mix of domestic and commercial etc.
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10k reinvestment would be pretty phenominal for a single operator. I've picked up over three fifty this week part time, however I've also forked out £185 for a van service, £170 for van tax, £20 for fuel, £30 for a new hose, plus a new twelve foot extender with brush to be paid for. The overheads are pretty horrendous for such a simple job (wfp). The good news of course will be that much of this can be offset against income tax at a later date. To get up and running as a new business venture has probably cost around £10,000. if I count the cost of my vehicle. Not quite in the same league as a bucket , shammy and ladder. :o
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if u want to make money in this game got to be prepared to work long hours,especaily in the summer.
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This is exactly why I am so opposed to the sort of posts that invite people to say how much they can earn from window cleaning.
There was one a while ago that was constructed like a survey. Some of the posts contained more than a whiff of Bulls**t and the trouble is people believe them.
I know I could, indeed should, be charging more than I do. My wife tells me so all the time. However, prices are going to be more competitive in the future because new window cleaners are starting up all the time. They are being displaced from other trades and professions by a massive influx of cheap labour from Eastern Europe. Its only just starting to happen but its going to get worse.
I was talking to a bloke this week who for the past few years has had a thriving business doing wood flooring. His work has all but disappeared because every way he turns he is being undercut by Polish "gangmasters" who don't do the work themselves but just act as a middle man employing thier own people.
They have got it all very well sewn up, not just flooring, they do everything, painting, decorating gardening,general building etc while their wives and girlfriends do cleaning jobs and work in nursing homes and shops.
The effect on the local trades people round here hasn't really started to become evident yet but there are a lot of men out there who are struggling in silence. However, they can't stay silent for ever. They have bills to pay and most of them own a set of ladders. You can work the rest out for yourself.
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Same in my area regarding cheap labour. I'm just trying to point out that as far as wfp goes it's certainly not a cheap and easy business venture to get into, it can't be started on a shoestring. The overheads are just too high if your starting out without an existing round and no other means of income. However I can't think of another trade where once you have your customers they can remain loyal for twenty five years!
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The loyalty thing is a good point. The trouble is most of my loyal customers have one foot in the grave and I'm not likely to see twenty years out of them
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Don't worry too much. Its already hard to start up a round unless you like rubbish work. Most people who start up drop out, new ones pick up that work and drop out. The good work is held by regulars who stick it winter in winter out. Think of all your good work, how many want immigrants looking through their bedroom windows just to save a few pounds?
Thing is, even with good prices, undercutting will only save the person a fiver at most and they would already have dropped you for the summer brigade long ago if they wanted to.
It may get harder to pick up new work but if you're long term, you will still grow.
Come one, with building it's different, you can save thousands or even hundreds by getting the poles in. Window cleaning a couple of quid. Unless you're in a depressed area, don't worry.
And those poles etc will soon have a mortgage and teenagers etc and everything else that makes living here so expensive. They will soon have to charge just as much, so don't worry!
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How is it tony blair can claim that immigration is good for the country, when so many people are losing their jobs to foreigners. whats happening now was predicted , but the government said it was scaremainering to make these claims, migration benefits only big business and the middle classes instead of paying the working man a decent wage they will employ a foreigner for peanuts,
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migration benefits only big business and the middle classes instead of paying the working man a decent wage they will employ a foreigner for peanuts,
I 100% agree with this post. I'd hate to be a building site laborour, ware-house employee or road-technician in this current climate of cheap labour. About 15 years ago I remember a mate leaving the army to do something with motorway maintenance. He said the work was tough, but the money was 'cracking'. I doubt it is today.
Employers must be rubbing their hands together in glee. They've got cheap labour and plenty of it.
Not all of it is quality labour though. I once spent a weekend humping mail-bags for Royal Mail; that was an eye-opener; I can tell you. Loads of ethnics trying to do as little as possible for as long as possible. My dark-skinned 'comrades' were leaving the 'difficult' stuff and I ended up doing anything 'awkward', and I thought, 'Blimey, here I am doing work that Somalians refuse to do?!!?'
I'm not racist, but working for a weekend in Royal Mail definately changed my views on certian things.
how many want immigrants looking through their bedroom window...
My customers do; I'm an immigrant!
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Tosh.
My customers do; I'm an immigrant!
I met you at the NEC, dont compare yourself with most immigrants that have come here. You have made this your home, working & paying your way. A bloke who i would have as a friend & welcome into my home.
The majority of immigrants want us to change our lives to fit in with theirs & Tony our Scottish Dictator is such wimp he sucks up to them.
If the avarage immigrant was like you we would be on a winner.
Macc
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Where I live and work in SW London lots of my customers have loft extentions etc to give extra space and save on the ludicrous cost of moving . And almost invariably the work is done by Poles...as is general painting and decorating, odd jobs and the like. Not only that their cleaners. child-minders, gardeners...the list goes on...are also East European...WHY?
I asked a customer who was having the side of her house extended why she was used East European labour rather than English...here's the jist of her reply:
"Of the various local companies I asked to quote for the job 4 were English and one was a Polish guy recommended to me by a friend. Of the 4 English firms 2 didn't show up and 2 did. Of the 2 that did both quoted silly money for the work involved and added that they couldn't start for a few months. The Polish guy quoted 35% less and could start immediately."
I asked: But how did you find their work/schedule-keeping?
She replied: Work great and schedule spot-on.
She did add that occassionally there was a slight language barrier.
Certainly the building trade (where I live) is going over to cheap EE labour...for now....will it affect Shiners?...I'd be surprised because relative to building work we charge peanuts and (please somebody correct me if I'm wrong) window cleaners don't exist on the continent beause their windows open inwards therefore window cleaning isn't something that would occur to a Polish guy.
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Customer: So how much?
Me: £13
Customer: Gosh that sounds cheap
Bugger :(
Then the next door neighbour comes out.
Neighbour: How much do you charge?
Me (through gritted teeth) £13
Neighbour: When can you do them?
So now 2 new jobs that are underpriced...or more accurately where I could have got away with a bit more.
Although I tell them I do the frames, if the above happens to me, If they say to me is that all, I quickly reply to them, would you like me to include the frames then?? they always say yes and you can then add another £4-5 job done Boys price up them and you are happy, works every time ;)
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I gotta say Jeff that's the best bit of advice I've had....Gawd bless ya mate ;D
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Although I tell them I do the frames, if the above happens to me, If they say to me is that all, I quickly reply to them, would you like me to include the frames then?? they always say yes and you can then add another £4-5 job done Boys price up them and you are happy, works every time ;)
Jeff,
That is good; I like that! I can't wait to use your line, but I'm braver with my prices (usually) nowadays; so I may have a wait!
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So A Polish guy comes over here, can't speak English and gets a job, no problem.
How come the workshy dolites, and we all know some, can't find work?
If they had have got off their lazy backsides, their would be no jobs for immigrant workers. Dai
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Where I live and work in SW London lots of my customers have loft extentions etc to give extra space and save on the ludicrous cost of moving . And almost invariably the work is done by Poles...as is general painting and decorating, odd jobs and the like. Not only that their cleaners. child-minders, gardeners...the list goes on...are also East European...WHY?
I asked a customer who was having the side of her house extended why she was used East European labour rather than English...here's the jist of her reply:
"Of the various local companies I asked to quote for the job 4 were English and one was a Polish guy recommended to me by a friend. Of the 4 English firms 2 didn't show up and 2 did. Of the 2 that did both quoted silly money for the work involved and added that they couldn't start for a few months. The Polish guy quoted 35% less and could start immediately."
I asked: But how did you find their work/schedule-keeping?
She replied: Work great and schedule spot-on.
She did add that occassionally there was a slight language barrier.
Certainly the building trade (where I live) is going over to cheap EE labour...for now....will it affect Shiners?...I'd be surprised because relative to building work we charge peanuts and (please somebody correct me if I'm wrong) window cleaners don't exist on the continent beause their windows open inwards therefore window cleaning isn't something that would occur to a Polish guy.
I don't think that's the problem though. The problem could be with too many displaced building workers taking up window cleaning.
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Must admit I'd not thought of that aspect but I don't really feel it'll impact what we do. Reason being that builders quote ££££s for a job that's gonna take 2-3 weeks and it's gonna be a one-off. Whereas we quote for a job that's gonna take a bit of a day but it's 6-12 times a year. I just don't think it's easy to go from seldom but lots to often but little...if you follow.
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there's always been immigration, but it's never caused unemployment before, in fact there was very little unemployment in previous times of immigration, the 50's and 60's for example.