Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: P®oPole™ on September 07, 2006, 04:20:52 pm
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I've heard alot of people hear say they lift the brush off the glass to rinse. Why?
Theres no need for it, on ground floor window I may sometimes do only if its a good flow on the glass, I cant be bothered to be lifiting poles off glass all day if theres no need, its hard work even at 18ft let alone 30, 40 or 50 feet up.
I find that with brush on it helps alot of windows flow down better, you know what I mean, you sort of agitate the water down with the brush on the glass.
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I rinse off the glass all the time.
When using the 40foot pole i hardly ever move it side to side to rinse.
All i do is twist the pole to aim the water jets from left to right.
Craig
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What brush do you use craig?
Regards
Alex
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I would fill In your poll but the option I would tick is'nt there!
I rinse on and off the glass depending on circumstances.
Matthew
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I cant belive how many people are voting brush off, all i can say is you must be wasting alot of energy.
It must be a confidence thing because I know for a fact that it does not matter in the slightest either way, but brush on is alot quicker alot less of a work out an less hassle of chaising silly little streams of beads down.
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What brush do you use craig?
Regards
Alex
Alex
I'm using Vikan brushes at the moment.
Was thinkng of changing them but if they are doing the job i don't see the point.
Craig
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I've never tried vikans, I was thinking of getting the square one.
I use a double trim brush which helps water flow in the middle of it were the bristles are smaller.
Also mate I know that little trick of turning the brush on big poles, thats the kiddy ;)
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I rinse with brush on glass, i find it easer to control where the water is going.
Jeff
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You know ladders, the brush helps the flow down the window.
Matthew clearvision,
I cant go back and edit the poll for some reason, Im absoutly cream crackerd from todays graft thats why the spelling is all over the show.
"Brush of on first floor and below, then brush on above"
SHOULD BE
Brush off on first floor and below, then brush on glass with higher windows.
or something along those lines.
Regards
Alex
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If you leave the brush on the glass you probably leave a lot of spots, as any dirt on the bristles will contaminate the pure water. ;)
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Providing your brush is clean, brush on the window is fine, the simple reason being pure water strives to return inpure state hence taking out impurities quickly and holding them in the water which then rinse straight out, impurities are taking out of the brush only leaving foreign bodies which hold in the brush, or come out and rinse away, depens what type of brush you have I surrpose.
Easyclean the guy who cleans down the road from you probably dont know what hes doing then, cleaning with brush on the glass is the actuall way to do it, R.S.I is all im saying.
Maybe some manufactures could shed some light on this, there selling us these tools which could cause us serious damage if not used correctly surely they will know how we are surrposed to use them, I know what the B.W.C.A say and its not brush off!!!
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IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU RINSE BRUSH ON OR OFF.
its easier to clean with brush on, its all in the head just like when it beads down the glass, like i said im totally confident with my working practise I very very rarley get complaints also im confient that I will not be getting R.S.I also I will not be wasting energy and will probably be able to clean many more houses over a day than than the shiner down the road who takes his brush off. SWEET ;D
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on upstairs windows i leave the brush on the glass,not had one complaint in over 2 years
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Propole, please be careful about using insulting phrases about others on the forum, it isn' t allowed.
I completely agree with you however on rinsing on the glass.
If you do it right it doesn't make any difference at all.
I haven't used the vikan brushes, but some will argue that the flocked bristles will retain contaminants.
I use the Salmon brush with 2 fan jets, these are supplied by Peter Fogwill with his system, and work great in my own personal opinion.
Peter also removes a couple of lines of bristles and by doing so this allows a clear line for the width of the brush for the fan jets to operate.
The brush is also single filament, and this DOES mean that any contaminants are easily rinsed away.
I hardly ever rinse off the glass, there just isn't any need to do so, if your technique is right then it isn't a problem.
But each to his own, we are still doing the same job, its what we get used to, if you develop the rinse of hte glass technique and it works for you then great!
Ditto the rinse on the glass brigade ;)
But rinsing ON the glass is most definitely easier!! ;)
Ian
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Propole is correct, as i said i rinse on the glass, and once i have got the window sterile ( i.e after first couple of cleans )
i have not encountered any probs.
I know this because anything i have cleaned by wfp, i have checked them when i have been back to collect all summer.
I dont use wfp on much domestic work, but what i do i am confident that it,s o.k.
Jeff
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I know of many window cleaners who initially had problems with spotting, but solved it by rinsing with the brush off the glass. This is the advice I was given from the people at OmniPole when I first purchased my system, and I think that they should know what their talking about!!
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Anyone here rinse on with Vikan brushes.....?
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propole, rinsing the brush of the glass i think its just habit realy, it just makes me feel very confident after sheeting the glass, knowing that everything has been rinsed of, and just for the record i use a vikan brush, as did most of us years ago, i have yet to try the other brushes and rince on the glass, it may be better and save some water, but its hard to break old habits,
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OFF the glass when doing domestic's whats the issue with lifting the brush a few inches away from the glass on 1st floor windows ?? ?? ?? not much effort is it ?? ?? ? and for what extra effort you put in, you know NO DIRT will be left behind
comercail 2nd and above, leave the brush on
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I rinse on the glass, but if I see my rinse leaving a 'pattern', (I'm sure you know what I mean), I'll give a second rinse with my brush off the glass!
I think rinsing with your brush on the glass helps to give a better rinse;generally; but if it leaves a pattern; it's another rinse for me.
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If i am useing my mini pole with a vikan brush head I will allways rinse off the glass. Though it has to be said their is no problem with RSI on a short pole.
If I am useing my 38' facelift pole with facelift brush I pivot the brush on its side to rinse. Why anyone would want to try and lift off the glass at that hight is beyond me. Needlessly to say I dont use this arm breaker of a pole very often.
If its my 18' pole with a Gaza brush on, 95% of the time I leave the brush on the glass, Any new cleans I rinse on the glass and then give it another quick rinse off the glass. Occasionaly I pull off to rinse to see how it feels, Then go back to brush on the glass.
If you are having problems with RSI get a salmon brush and leave the brush on the glass. Your arms and hands will be very glad you did.
Nel.
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I couldnt give a monkeys Im talking facts.
IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU RINSE BRUSH ON OR OFF.
its easier to clean with brush on, its all in the head just like when it beads down the glass, like i said im totally confident with my working practise I very very rarley get complaints also im confient that I will not be getting R.S.I also I will not be wasting energy and will probably be able to clean many more houses over a day than than the shiner down the road who takes his brush off. SWEET ;D
Hi I am 'Easy Clean' NOT 'easyclean'. I totally agree with 'Poleboy'. I don't want 'RSI' and I wouldn't trade under the name of 'Easy Clean' if I had to lift my WFP brush head off the panes of glass Just to 'rinse it'. To the other 'easy clean' have some confidence in your tools and save yourself 'RSI' and a lot of wasted energy and try rinsing with the brush on the glass.
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I rinse with the brush on the glass but with the brush tilted slightly.
I think you get a better rinse that way.
And i never get a problem with spots or runs.
I can see after years of lifting off the glass to rinse people are going to be complaining of back injuries.
After already having a back injurie im not taking any chances.
Paul
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i dont know what kind of nozzles you have used or seen before, mines almost pushes the brush of the glass, ;D ;D
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I have 3mm jets in my brushes and if i feel i am having a problem rinsing glass that is beading i just tilt the brush slightly.
It seems to work for me.
Craig
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JOUK:YOUR CHEATING your using aa power washer ;D
Ivery seldom rince?have the flow turned up so when you push up to the top of the frame.a cascade of water flows down the pane as you move the brush to the right
to take your next pull down .then up to the top and move right.the a quick left to right along the top.maybe another left to right,
yes it does leave spots donnt want to dissapoint my customers, cus they would be dissapointed if I did a perfect clean,after been told by w/c using ladders its useless
[THATS W/C AROUND HERE]
BYthe way you can only do this when theve been cleaned a few times,unntil then I leave the brush on when rinceing.
gaza [you will all be trying it tommorrow ] ;D ;D ;D ;D
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New to WFP but i like to think Propole is right because lifting of glass is killing me.
Dave
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You can also rinse with the brush on the glass but only the tips of the bristles actually RESTING on the glass.
Some of the weight is still being taken up by the brush and will help reduce strain on your lower back as well as your shoulders and arms.
your flow rate will also have an impact, the higher the flow rate the less the likelihood of spotting while rinsing on the glass.
I think that perhaps if you operate with a minimal flow rate rinsing off the glass may be more benificial for you, though as I have always used a high flow rate I cannot make an accurate comparison...
Ian
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At first floor level it is no effort at all to lift the brush off the glass to ensure that you get a better finish, alternatively just do them trad if it is domestic ;D
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Sorry my post should have said "does anyone here rinse on with a Vikan brush"?
Cheers
Dave.
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Get rid of the vikan brush's have the flow as fast as u can and never lift off. I use to try and conserve water and i use to have a vikan brush. Now i have a decent brush with my facelift pole and use near to 2 litres a minute and i dont need to lift brush off the glass and its so much faster to clean. Oh and they come up even better than before.
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What brush are you useing sham.
Drew.
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Maybe I'm missing something here but can you please tell me why we purify the water? Is It not because the water Is contaminated???
So what Is the point of using pure water on windows If the last thing to touch the glass Is the brush???? (the brush Is contaminated after you clean the first pane!) It picks up dirt and cob webs!
The last thing that should touch the glass should be 100% pure water! and not a dirty brush!!
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your brush is being continually rinsed clean with the constant flow of pure water, single filament brushes will of course be flushed cleaner than flocked bristle brushes, that is only logical.
Therefore, providing you have done your job correctly, both glass and bristles will be flushed clear of all contaminants, regardless of whether the bristles are touching the glass or not.
But you should also clean the bristles of your brush, regardless of whether or not they are single filament or flocked bristles.
The reason being that you will pick up contaminants that are not water soluable, they will gradually work their way off the bristles of the brush through normal usage, but your brushing action will allow them to adhere to the glass, resulting in very TINY spots (not the normal spotting left behind as a result of you not washing the glass thoroughly enough)
Won't matter whether you rinse on or off the glass, if this happens thenn you WILL leave spots behind.
Use a hand sprayer with a detergent solution in it, or dip your brush in your Trad bucket and give your bristles a good scrub, the detergent will of course disolve any grease and so on, turn on your water, rub your hands briskly over the bristles for a couple of minutes and you are ready to go again!
It does make a difference!!
When you see a greasy handprint on the glass, or some young women has 'snogged' the window pane, or a drunk has smeared his takaway over the window, use your applicator to give it a brief scrub, these are the greasy marks that should you scrub them with your brush will leave non soluable contaminants on the bristles, which if you ignore you will then re-deposit in very tiny spots on other panes of glass.
And human fat or grease takes specialist chemicals to get rid of!
I know this because a mate of mine is an industrial chemist, runs his own company and has specialized in developing chemicals for disolving human fat deposits left in showers and swiming pools!!
So....keep your brush head cleaned regularly!!
Whether you rinse on or off the glass, keeping your brush cleaned can only help!
Ian
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Maybe I'm missing something here but can you please tell me why we purify the water? Is It not because the water Is contaminated???
So what Is the point of using pure water on windows If the last thing to touch the glass Is the brush???? (the brush Is contaminated after you clean the first pane!) It picks up dirt and cob webs!
The last thing that should touch the glass should be 100% pure water! and not a dirty brush!!
Hi matthew,
As Ian said and I mentioned last night, the brush is not contaminatied with inpurities only foreign bodies that are not water soluable, they hold in the brush or are washed away.
I also use a high flow rate 2ltr + pm, its alot faster, better results and allows one to easily clean brush on the glass without breaking your back allday.
There is a tecnique to rinsing with brush on the glass so all the water dont just fall out the bottom of the brush, with brush on its so much easier its helps the flow tremendously, I think double trim brushes also help never used vikans so cant comment on them.
Also this is a very touchy matter, I'm supprised no suppliers havent replyed on this thread, there could be alot of pointing fingers in years to come.
Im glad no one who has ever worked for me will be able to come back with a claim because I didnt show him the correct method of using telescopic poles. My employees are engaged in potentially hazardous activities and I have comprehensive training plans and records to ensure relevant competencies are established and sustained.
Regards
Alex
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Hi Ian.
Great advise on the cleaning of brush. Can i ask what deturgent you use, how much & how often you clean your brush. Thanks.
Macc
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I did an experiment today, I cleaned two identical windows on the front of my house. I cleaned one as I normally do and rinsed with the brush lifted off of the glass, the other window I also cleaned as normal, but I left the brush on the glass as I rinsed.
The results - both windows looked clean, but on close inspection the window that was rinsed with the brush on the glass had lots of small spots, the window which was rinsed with the brush lifted off the glass had no spots.
I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, I am just sharing the results of my test with you. :D
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yeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ;D ;D
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This has really given me something to think about. I rinse with the brush off because that was what I was told to do and I have never questioned it.
I am going to start experimenting to see how it goes. Rinsing is the slowest part of the job and if we can cut the time it would be significant.
The forum strikes again !
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Has anyone ever washed down a large PVC sheet of plastic that you might find on a 'blind' side of a conservatory?
When rinsing the grit and dirt, it's easier to rinse with the brush on; and it's easy to see the effect your rinsing technique has.
Okay, one reason for better effective brush-ON rinsing on PVC sheet plastic could be that it's not as smooth as glass; so the bristles help to agitate the dirt downwards.
But another reason could be that it's a better - more effective - way to rinse?
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Macc,
I use whatever I happen to be using in my Trad bucket!
At the moment I have gone back to fairy, I only use a weak solutiion for window cleaning though.
I prefer to use the specialist detergents in a sprayer though, such as Unger liquid and so on.
Groundhog,
You have to bear in mind that you need a slightly different technique of cleaning the window, it'll also depend on your flow rate too.
As an example:
Yesterday I was doing a few shops in a local village, these come up flawless normally with WFP, however, when I went back to collect the sun was at that perfect angle that will highlight any flaws in your work.
Sure enough, on the doors of the one shop were some spots, ditto on another shop a little further along.
These were spots that I know have happened because of the brush being contaminated with unsoluable stuff....but on this occasion, and even though I had washed and cleaned the glass thoroughly, there were spots.......
Windows were rinsed with the brush off the glass and not on it!!
Jobs were rectified (by trad methods) and the brush was cleaned, work afterwards was checked (just to be sure I was doing things right) and everything was back as it should be. ;)
Just because you rinse off the glass does not mean you will never get spots, both methods work well, but to rinse on the glass your technique does need to change a little, practice makes perfect as they say.
Ian
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I know that holding the brush off the glass does not guarantee that you will not get spots, what I am saying is that if you hold the brush on the glass to rinse you are far more likely to get spots!
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mmm, we;ll have to agree to disagree on that point!
Personally I've never had a problem, but each to his own and whichever method he gets used to ;)
Ian
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Max height brush off 65ft-just
When developing the fishing pole idea I realised that you dont get enough weight to flatten all the bristles and most scrub with the "sides" of the bristles , this also applies with some other brushes like the dual trim, they stand off the glass like a wire brush and wasnt the effect I wanted.
The answer was to alter the working angle of the brush head so that the bristles all pointed upwards and use fine jets ott. The scrubbing action is then done on the upstokes and you no longer pressure.
Right back to the topic and the spotting problem. There is glass that will always spot even with pure RO water. But the majority of spotting comes from contaminated brus heads. If you look at a brush as its working the dirty water goes within the bristles and lies there almost horizontal, waiting for an opportunity to come back out and attack your nice clean windows :'(
The last thing on the glass ideally should be clean water not a so called "clean" brush.
Now if you angle the brush so that the dirty water runs backwards to the brush stock and then drips off, you are lessening the chances of contamination. Its best if you actually see this effect in action. You obviously need a brush that swivels in one plane to do this.
Just something to think about. 8)
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no need for all the arguing its still a lot easier than ladders ;)
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I think the evidence might be hidden in Jeffs bank acct :D
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" I've heard you say before that windows that bead cant be cleaned above a certain height thats a false statment."
I totally agree ! to my knowledge I have never stated anything like that because its not common sense. The height of the window doesnt come into it. Windows that bead can be cleaned at any height just that some will still spot even after clean water. Some do some dont.
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Thanks Ian ;D
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Pro Pole, Do you mean this bit ?
"but at the heights you work ther should only be glass that sheets, so you should be ok.
That was in the context of the reply to Pat who is a chairman, I once saw a pic he posted, looked about 14 floors up in the States,where no one could get to put any sort of polish or coating, therefore the glass should sheet perfectly.
Quote "Also Jeff you didnt answer my question on how long you have rinsed off the glass, as wfp has been going in the U.K for 9 years now I doubt there are any old school wfp users still doing it brush off.
Didnt reply to that because I dont generally rinse off the glass now , I use a brush thats got the 4 jet supply ott and rinses as you go with the brush on the glass.
The subject of the 3 different types of glass is long and complicated and probably worthy of its own topic. Along with the dreaded "spots"
Hope this helps.
ps I started in autumn 1998
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Thanks for the reply Jeff, I was not doubting your knowledge as I know from reading many of your previos posts dating back years that you are a very experienced shiner.
You say that you dont generally rinse brush off, does this 4 jet brush you have allow you to easily rinse brush on the glass?
There should be poles with jets mounted above the brush, I have fan jets above some of my brushes but never use them as the spray just goes every were.
Regards
Alex
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Pole pro
Q Sorry Jeff but I have to disagree with this, I think its all in the flow rate if you have the water in your tank you can have the flow which ensures a sufficient rinse
Ans So you need just enough water.
Quote " The brush is allways kept clean of impurities because of the pure water and the process of it."
If you have oxidised and flaky paint that leaves particles behind in the brush head, this doesnt work.
The hot windows brigade.
Quote "If its the sort of glass that sheets then if you use enough water its no problem"
but if its glass that doesnt sheet, on the hot glass the impurities bake on. "Thats why some time ago I started building my round not on price, but on customers with glass that sheets.-It takes time.
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please reread my post and the quote i used from yourself and the answer i gave it is straight forward enough i knew the products you do not one would expect a pro to know this as tucker were first out there with wfp. as i said i am reasonably experienced
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Pro Pole you have indeed created an interesting debate, and I for one as a newbie to wfp would not question your ability or experience as you have indeed achieved quite alot in this industry for one so young.
I myself have indeed found this paticular debate very thought provoking, and have found myself testing all the therorys put forward but have not as yet come to any firm conclusions other than rinsing of the glass not being that difficult as I find I can ballance the pole up to 20ft with one hand without causing undue strain to myself.
I would just like to offer you some advice regarding your postings when replying to other forum members that post something you dissagree with, I have noticed that you display an arrogance in your writings that is not called for, maybe this is not intentional on your part but it is offensive all the same, which is a shame as most of the time your contribution to this site is of value, especialy to the newbies like myself and it would be a shame if you feel you cannot continue to post in future.
Just remember as the old saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Drew.
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Hi Drew,
Thank you for your kind coments, I have since gone back and deleted a few posts as I will not lower myself to a level some would, if you look at my first posts on this topic you will see them to be positive and constructive untill it was hijacked an turned into an argument.
This thread was surrposed to help people out, im dissapointed no suppliers have answered my questions I thought they could at least comment, someone mentioned omnipole instructed them to rinse brush off if this is the case then im very shocked, I might ring around a few suppliers next week putting foward my questions about use of poles and see what they say, also I dont see anyone who has replied with how long they have rinsed brush off glass I doubt you can do it day in day out for many years over say 30ft you got to have some seriously light poles or R.S.I will be knocking at the door.
Kind Regards
Alex
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Hi Alex (Pro Pole).
I found your posts interesting.
I run a Tucker & i was told when rincing to lift the brush off, thought i would let you know as you plan on making a few calls. It would be interesting to know if you phone Tucker if you could post up reasons from the suppliers you talk to.
Many thanks for your help so far, its only been about 10 months for me so far & i would have been lost if it were not for you guys & girls on this forem that know what there talking about. ;D
Macc
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Hi macc
Thanks for your reply, Im not putting tucker or there equipment down I just dont like there salesmen, some advise I was once given wasnt entierly justified.
I also enjoy reading post on this forum and taking advise from members, some guys on here I have alot of respect for and one day would hope to come close to emulating them and the sucsess of there business.
I will calm down on my posts from now but when I put my opinion in I dont like getting comments back like "poleboy" "change my name im not a pro" I like to think that some of my advise is correct and some of you have taken tips from me, I no I have earnt the right to call myself a profesinal so Im not bothered, but I think from now I will just be a silient member as a certain few just take it a little to far.
Kind Regards
Alex
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Hi ProPole
I enjoy reading your posts and I like the aggressive style of your writing.
But you should not get wound up, when people criticise you .
One other thing the window cleaning industry is full of people who resent anyone who becomes successful .
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Hi David,
Many thanks for your kind comment, I to enjoy reading your posts and would never question anything that came from your mouth, as said before I have alot of respect for some members on hear you being one I look upon very highly and one day would like to think I could even come remotley close to being in the same league as your company.
Kind Regards
Alex
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Polepro / Groundhog - I've got better things to do on a Sunday Night than sort out your squabbling! I've deleted all the posts that I consider to be argumentative. Perhaps you'll both respect each others opinions and continue discussing this topic professionally.
Thanks
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for your invaluable input into this forum, since your here maybe you would be so kind as to answer my question seen as you do supply poles.
I look foward to your reply.
Alex
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hi propole I also lift the brush off the glass at say 18ft but above 30ft I have started to rinse on the glass, basically because it is easier
its a case of trial and error, but you are right there should be guidelines to cleaning above 30ft because it becomes a different ball game from cleaning at 18ft
thats the problem with wfp being around for only 9 years no one has enough knowledge in the scientific methods of using brushes in different ways, and maybe it is now ready for a bible on wfp
maybe this is an opening for you to write a book on the different techniques
jinky
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there is a book available right now from somebody in dorset on ebay
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guys I have read with curiosity of guys rinsing on the glass, as I have just recently started this method for windows above 18ft
could you explain your technique and type of brush used
I noticed a few lads had the facelify pole, is the brush thats comes with the facelift pole equal to a salmon brush with single filament
I did get a brush from gaz which was a salmon brush with no jet just holes, have you since added jets to this brush, or do you use the holes like pencil jets
not criticising gaz brush if thats the way it comes, but was wondering to the guys who purchased gaz brush did they readapt it in anyway
any advice given highly appreciated
jinky
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Hi Jinky,
As you say up to 18ft is easy but once you get to 30 and above it starts to get a little tricky, you can try twisting the pole so the brush twists on the window keeping it off when rinsing but as some of us say there is no need providing your flow rate is high enough and technique is right.
Keep practising the brush on technique its hard to explain exactly how its done but I will say its more of an up down motion rather than side to side, once you get the technique you will be able to work both ways and probably save yourself from alot of painfull back aches in years to come.
As we said wfp has only been in the U.K for 9 years, how can we know for sure without any real evidence thats its ok to lift off and real evidence that brush on is ok. I do know that both ways can give good and bad results, many factors have to be taken into account conditions of the window and oprative skills are a few.
Im glad you have at least tried this method mate and I sincerley hope that you get on with it and have good results.
Good Luck
Jinky
Mike,
Im still waiting for your reply, if you could find the time it would be much appreciated.
Alex
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Mike,
Im still waiting for your reply, if you could find the time it would be much appreciated.
Alex
It's personal preference isn't it. However, if you have first cleans, or particularly dirty windows that are cleaned infrequently, then rinsing off the glass reduces the risk of contamination. If, on the other hand, you're talking about regular cleans of large commercial buildings then you wouldn't want to lift the brush at anything above 25ft if you don't have to. The higher the flow rate you work with the more rinsing the brush gets and therefor the less risk there is of spotting.
Regards
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to reply, while Im here I would like to tell you that I set up my business on a shoe string a few years ago with equipment from your company and still have alot of it now, If a freind never gave me your brochure I doubt I would be hear now.
Kind Regards
Alex
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mike, what ever where you thinking about when you gave a brochure to propoles friend, now we are in trouble ;D ;D ;D
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;D I still have that brochure to this day.
Dont know how it got all the way down here to my friend, but I know from page 30 and 31 in that brochure I purchased equipment which would change the rest of my working life, I didnt have a clue where to look or buy window cleaning equipment, I didnt use the net or know of any suppliers then it was lucky that I came across the express brochure.
Many Thanks to Express.
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If WFP users use a double trim brush with monofilaments made from nylon that retain the water, with the water flow turned up slightly higher than normal, using a 'SUITABLE' brush with the 'CORRECT' pole technique then they will have NO problems ever rinsing the panes of glass with the brush head resting against the glass. If you WFP users prefer to rinse with the wrong technique using unsuitable brushes then sooner, rather than later, your health problems will catch up with you.
One other thing to consider if you are an employer and you have instructed your employees to adopt a 'RINSE OFF' technique you are opening yourself up to claims for compensation from your employees later on in time if they have been taught the wrong technique from you resulting in their long term injuries.
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Good reply mate ;)
Easyclean has just summend it up in one post providing your technique is right, on the glass is fine, as I mentioned the other night I would never instruct anyone who worked for me to use the wrong technique of lifting poles off over 30ft, this could lead to pointing fingers in the future which I would not welcome with open arms, I will act today not tommorow, next month or year, I have comprehensive training plans and records to ensure relevant competencies are established and sustained which basically helps me sleep easy at night.
Turn your flow up a bit fellas and give it a go.
Regards
Alex
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to reply, while Im here I would like to tell you that I set up my business on a shoe string a few years ago with equipment from your company and still have alot of it now, If a freind never gave me your brochure I doubt I would be hear now.
Kind Regards
Alex
Hi Alex
I'm glad we were able to help you get into window cleaning. I hope you're earning what you hoped you would - if not give me a call on 01684 565552......... In fact, if there's anyone out there not earning £40K+ you should really give me a call, as the window of opportunity is closing!
Regards
Mike
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I think that anyone who is lifting poles at over 30ft up and down all day, every working day on a regular basis, is going to have problems with bad backs, necks and shoulders later in life, no matter if they rinse with the brush on or off the glass, you can guarantee it! :o
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the more we talk about this subject i notice the pole gets higher votes for folk rinsing of the glass, ;D ;D but 10 years from now maybe propole could be right :'(
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I'm glad that I only use my pole when I have to, Its beginning to sound like ladders are far safer in the long term!! ;)
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grounddog, we have taken the right decision to go wfp, But if wfp was not available, we would all be complaining about rsi in the knees and heels ect, climbing ladders, if this forum was just about traditional window cleaning we would never hear the end of problems with ladders, This is a young industry and a lot of questions will be asked and challenged, i think a few scientific tests should be carried out by the suppiers, they could join together and reduce the cost towards experiments to see if rsi is related to wfp work,
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Any job with repetitive actions will be at risk of RSI problems, typist or window cleaner, it'll affect us all (or I should say it has the potential to affect us all)
Got a mobile phone?
Do you text a lot?
RSI is also a problem with those too.
The time spent working over 30 or 35 feet is pretty minimal, I have three big accounts I have to do this week, the one is closer to 45 ft rather than 35ft, the other two are around the 35ft mark, put all three together and they will total about 9 hours work.
add the time taken to clean the top floor of all 3 of them and it will add up to perhaps an hour at the maximum, about 20 minutes per building.
And those are the only ones this week, one hour out of 35 isn't bad I think.
Few of us will spend a long time working at that height at any given time.
Now if you were not doing that of a pole you would be doing it off a ladder, I have spend most of my window cleaning life doing these accounts off a ladder and it is way tougher and more dangerous off ladders!!
In fact I rated one of them too dangerous to do the top floor the last couple of years I was doing them off a ladder, and I didn't even know about WFP in those days either.
Each month I probably spend no more than 4 or 5 hours actually working above 30ft, very few of you with domestic accounts will equal that, remember, that is actual time spent working at that height!
And rinsing off the glass at that height, even if I rinsed off the glass as a matter of course, there is no way that I would on windows above 30ft, the strain is just too much on your body.
Ian
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Who knows what the future holds for you regular polers? My father has been climbing ladders all his life (he's a roofer) and he is still working every day, and he is 71 years old and fit as a fiddle. He believes that climbing ladders has kept him in shape! :) Its a much more natural action for your body than pushing a pole up and down all day and causes far less strain on the back and joints! Think about it ;)
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Groundhog,
I personally agree with you, climbing ladders is by and large good for you, helps keep your legs strong if nothing else.
But as a result of climbing them all my life, as I've said before, it almost ruined both of my knees, I needed keyhole surgery on the pair of them.
I dare say that there will be people who will have to stop using pole systems, their bodies may just not be able to stand up to the rigours it puts on them.
Carting around big heavy ladders all day also takes its toll, and ladders are an awful lot heavier than a pole.
Only time will tell us what eventually may befall long time users of extension poles, but I'll warrant that it won't equal the damage done to you using a ladder for the same length of time.
Ian
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I have to disagree with you on that last point Ian, just ask any chiropractor or austiopath. (I know the spellings are wrong)
:P
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And the winner is ???
BRUSH OFF!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Bad luck ProPole you can't win them all ;)
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Ive had replys from the big boys on this, and I find it conclusive.
At 18ft its fine to lift your brush but as many of us said, there is still no need, rinsing brush on is quicker, identical results and puts one's mind at ease knowing there is small if any risk when used correctly, of long term injuries, R.S.I and alike.
The correct technique of using poles is to rinse brush on and move around while cleaning the window, dont just stand in one spot using your arms.
You mentioned a couple of times that glyn @ omnipole instructed you himself to rinse brush off, Im very very shocked by this, and will try to contact glyn myself because I have my doubts that a repertable company such as omnipole would give such dangerous advice, I would like for them to elaberate on this.
Regards
ProPole
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All depends on the weight of your pole, I use say 1lb @ 18ft, 2.2lbs max.@30ft
Also depends on leverage, if you stand close to the building then you can lift off higher.
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You go for it Propole! I was shown a video clip at omnipoles office, and they were definitely rinsing brush off! ;)
Of course if the pole is being used at a great height it may not be wise to try and lift it off the glass, in these circumstances I just do the best that I can by tilting the brush head slightly when rinsing. :)
I have tested this out many times and have found that the best results are achieved when you rinse with the brush off! ;)
To be honest though I don't really care how you rinse, I will do it my way and you do it yours ;)
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You go for it Propole! I was shown a video clip at omnipoles office, and they were definitely rinsing brush off! ;)
Of course if the pole is being used at a great height it may not be wise to try and lift it off the glass, in these circumstances I just do the best that I can by tilting the brush head slightly when rinsing. :)
If that is the case then the brush doesn't really have to be lifted off the glass does it? I mean if you can work your way round it at height then you can work your way round it at second storey as well? Probably at say 50-60 feet you won't be able to even tilt the brush, you will probably just rinse with the brush on the glass? And if that is the case are you saying these windows at above 25 feet or so are not being cleaned properly?
Not very professional in my mind if that is the case.
I am not having a go at you in particular Groundhog even although you had one at me. I am just trying to get my point of view across about rinsing with the brush on or off the glass.
Peter Fogwill
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Propole, it would be interesting to see how the poll went if you run it again in say a years time.
Peter Fogwill
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This would cure all your problems :D
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Like the look of that, who sells them.
Drew
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Drew,
I forgot were i got the picture from but if you give me a few minutes I'll have a look for you
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Drew
Wintec do an adaption for there pole.
http://wintecs.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=16&products_id=156
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Cheers Jeff £42.00 not a bad price, but sure I could use my engineering skills and make an adaption for my own poles, thats certainly got me thinking.
Drew
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Cheers Jeff £42.00 not a bad price, but sure I could use my engineering skills and make an adaption for my own poles, thats certainly got me thinking.
Drew
Then don't be mean and make one for everyone ;D ;D
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Propole, it would be interesting to see how the poll went if you run it again in say a years time.
Peter Fogwill
Hi Peter,
I would imagine it would be slightly more in my favor, I know all the old school wfpers with say 2 or 3 years experince or more, will rinse brush on becuase they too are very compitient and skilled with poles. Wfp has only been around for a blink of an eye, alot of people with bad habbits will suffer in years to come and maybe have unwanted fingers pointing at them, Im glad I wont be one of them.
Im delighted to see there are a few suppliers out there that at least give the correct and sound advice.
Many Thanks Peter
Kind Regards
Alex
Groundhog you have alot to learn with regards to wfp work, may I surrgest the B.W.C.A a place to start, because its pretty obvious you dont have a clue what you talking about ;) im not starting and argument its just how i see it.
Guys belive who you want, just remember the faces on this thread that says its ok, all are highly respected on this forum. Im sure they know there stuff wouldnt you say.
Some members here are talking absoulte rubbish fair enough if its there own way of doing it on small domestic stuff or they are using super light poles of some stature then fine, but without any evidence or scientific facts I know who I would rather belive, and its not groundhog, matt-diy, tom_currie and the likes of them.
Have another read and see who you think would be telling it how it is.
WORK SMARTER, NOT HARDER!!
Regards
ProPole
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This would cure all your problems :D
No, it would give you more problems with contaminants being flushed out from above the glass and the brickwork. When the brush is running along the top of the glass where will the water be spraying? Even if you have the spray hitting exactly the top of the brush the water will still ark up the way. It doesn’t work I tried it.
Peter Fogwill
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Absolutely agree Peter too much overspray. Just like Tucker.
Unlike the pic though I use micro ott jets.
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No, it would give you more problems with contaminants being flushed out from above the glass and the brickwork. When the brush is running along the top of the glass where will the water be spraying? Even if you have the spray hitting exactly the top of the brush the water will still ark up the way. It doesn’t work I tried it.
Thats why I dont like fan spray, its good for curtain glass, but not for the average domestic window.
tom_currie mentioned somewere that tucker do jets (not spray) mounted over the brush, I have never seen that although I have on your pole Jeff that brush in the golf trolley, How does it work, any good?
ProPole
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4 ,micro jets (one in each corner and two in the middle, better that three jets as the middle uses most of the water.) to hit the glass 1/4" above the bristles so that you can rinse as you go or by a slight pressure rinse thro the brush. Ideal if you want to get right up to the top of sash windows and with no overspill ideal for doing Georgians without getting the paint oxide all over the place.
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This would cure all your problems :D
No, it would give you more problems with contaminants being flushed out from above the glass and the brickwork. When the brush is running along the top of the glass where will the water be spraying? Even if you have the spray hitting exactly the top of the brush the water will still ark up the way. It doesn’t work I tried it.
Peter Fogwill
Peter
I'm still traditional so I havn't got a clue, but thinking about what you said and reading previous posts you are right.
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4 ,micro jets (one in each corner and two in the middle, better that three jets as the middle uses most of the water.) to hit the glass 1/4" above the bristles so that you can rinse as you go or by a slight pressure rinse thro the brush. Ideal if you want to get right up to the top of sash windows and with no overspill ideal for doing Georgians without getting the paint oxide all over the place.
Like it Jeff, wouldnt mind one myself ;)
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http://img212.i.us/my.php?image=p1010030wd5.jpg
Taken from WFP Training Academy-
You dont need pressure, just enough flow for the job you are doing, I use between 1/3rd and 1/2 litre per min but can push out 2 litres. I found with ott sprays like that shown that the overspray caught the heads of the windows including bad paint and that I got lots of trouble after I had gone with runs all over the place.
I then went over to thro the brush sprays which I used for many years and with less flow, "pushed" the water wave right up to the top edge of the pane but not over the top onto the head.
I now use 4 jets aimed over the top of the brush to just go thro the bristle tips if I press a bit, but if I dont press I get really accurate rinsing.
Heres a pic http://img481.i.us/my.php?image=p1010027wf1.jpg showing two yellow sprays on the left, notice the overspray and 2 green 1mm jets on the right. You could also mount either to go thro the brush if you wanted. I only do frames as an extra so the ott jets suit my style but maybe not yours. Also only just seen on left, yellow (leave caps on for sprays and green or blue with caps off for jets about£4 pack of 6. They simply lightly screw fit into 4mm irrigation hose
2. Buy some u shaped plastic channel drill 6mm holes thro both sides at the angle you require, push the 6mm pipe though and fit the jets. Fix to the brush head at the angle you require with 2 screws thro the base of the plastic angle. If you use bigger pipe use bigger channel. It makes it simpler when you want to change brush heads to just move the whole manifold.
Because they are on stalks of pipe they withstand the knocks, if they need adjusting, I just press/push the stalk in the direction I need. The volume is controlled by the little tap. I have another one on the pump and can balance between the two to achieve what flow I need simply by adjusting one or the other. Comes in handy to just drop the featherlight and adjust or switch on/off at the brush head.
3.They are simple hoselock micro irrigation "jets" from any good garden supplier or do a google search. I get mine from my local garden centre.
Just had athought about fan sprays but will have to go shoppingm, may or may not work but will post results at the week end.
If you want to use the spray pattern thro the brush, just carefully cut out one tuft of bristle, drill a smaller hole to get the whole nozzle cap into from the back, to bite into the brush head then drill a slightly bigger hole to accept the base of the yellow jets. You have to cut off the little wings with a strong pair of scissors and then just force the jet into the slightly enlarged hole. Doing it from the back is harder but means that the nozzle doesnt stick proud of the brush head and rub on the glass. When you cut out a bristle shank you need to fit a cylinder shield over the drill bit to stop the drill grabbing the bristles next to it. I think that removing just what you need is better than trimming out a whole row because there is more brushing power.
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Jeff Im not getting the first pic, the second one im very impressed with, do any suppliers sell this type of design?
Im going to try converting a brush to a similar spec, is it a important to have your flow set exactly right for the jets to hit above the brush?
Were did you get them little taps from? do you have to buy a set of irrigation kit, or can you buy all the bits seperate from any decent garden center?
How do you split one tube into four? I see you have nifty little elbows etc in place, can I go for a Y piece followed by two more?
I can see this being really benifcial with regards to seeing the jet clean right into the top bit of glass and as you say on sash windows to get right under that center bit. And the jets on the outside getting right into the edges.
Look foward to your results on the fan sprays, I to might post my pics of the brush Im going to convert, following Jeffs advise.
Kind Regards
Alex
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Jeff Im not getting the first pic, the second one im very impressed with, do any suppliers sell this type of design?
Im going to try converting a brush to a similar spec, is it a important to have your flow set exactly right for the jets to hit above the brush?
Were did you get them little taps from? do you have to buy a set of irrigation kit, or can you buy all the bits seperate from any decent garden center?
How do you split one tube into four? I see you have nifty little elbows etc in place, can I go for a Y piece followed by two more?
I can see this being really benifcial with regards to seeing the jet clean right into the top bit of glass and as you say on sash windows to get right under that center bit. And the jets on the outside getting right into the edges.
Look foward to your results on the fan sprays, I to might post my pics of the brush Im going to convert, following Jeffs advise.
Kind Regards
Alex
i hope jeff dont mind me answering this question, im bored and looking for things to reply to (and i know about the setup as Jeff helped me with mine)
just pop to a big garden center that stocks the micro range, loads of fittings, about 3 quid a pack of 6 or 8 (if my memory is correct)
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Propole show some respect for your elders >:(
;D ;D
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I was cleaning windows when you were still in nappies ;D
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Alex ( Thanks Matt :) )
[img width= height= alt=Image Hosted by i.us]http://img481.i.us/img481/4327/p1010027wf1.jpg[/img]
Q is it a important to have your flow set exactly right for the jets to hit above the brush?
A yes I use a low pressure sytem throughout(all the joints just push fit together) I adjust/balance the flow I need with two micro taps, one near the pump, one at the brush. I also use a pump bypass with a tap.
Q How do you split one tube into four? I see you have nifty little elbows etc in place, can I go for a Y piece followed by two more?
A. With that brush I use 3 "T" pieces or as you said you could use a "Y" from the main supply.
Heres a link to the complete thread
Q Look foward to your results on the fan sprays
A Hoselock have a very basic horizontal fan but as I use low pressure, it wouldnt work.
Heres a link to the complete thread if its allowed ?
http://jouk45.forumup.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=173&mforum=jouk45&sid=55b8a8e71c0d1ae547d3c86bd743198b
Nobody makes anything like it yet- thats why I made my own, notice the brush itself will swivel around the pole using the torquing collar.
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I rinse off the glass. I've only just started with pure water so I haven't perfected any technique yet. I use the Salmon brush, which does hols a FEW dirt particles, so if I touch the glass with it after brushing frames etc, then when I lift off, I can actually see the dirt particles left behind on the glass. Thats why i rinse with brush off.